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[Bo_Hazem]

Very interesting observation. It could help explain why there's that difference in load times with them. Could show how much better the PS5s decompressor is for kraken then the Series one.

In short, Kraken is the future lossless compression for gaming. Mark Cerny was asked by the devs to adopt Kraken:

Developers also told Cerny they want support for the Oodle Kraken compression algorithm created by RAD Game Tools. The PS4 used Zlib as its compression format, which the PS5 is also using, but the new console will also support Kraken which Cerny called "Zlib's smarter cousin". Sony’s Mark Cerny provides a ‘deep dive’ of the PS5 for developers Sony’s Mark Cerny provides a ‘deep dive’ of the PS5 for developers - Developer Tech News developer-tech.com

Timestamped:





The whole industry is moving away from ZLIB to Kraken, according to Mark Cerny.

 

[Snake29]

Fair enough, but don't forget gamers like me have the seagate expensive card giving us more than double the default storage space for Series X titles.

Fixed

 

[Bo_Hazem]

PS5 will really have the space advantage when the SSD slot is enabled. A additional 2TB will go a long way, whenever that happens though.

I guess Microsoft can just release a 2TB card as well though.

This could even out eventually when all games are using Kraken and devs separate S files from X files. That's assuming that all devs and studios are competent enough.

 

[Jemm]

This could even out eventually when all games are using Kraken and devs separate S files from X files.

 

[Corndog]

You mean Kraken and Oodles?

Yes those can be used on Xbox but the PS5s decompressor is supposedly more powerful. I'm guessing if there's a reason why they are not using it is because the decompressor in the Series console takes longer to decompress those types of formats.

It's all that I can think of to why Microsoft doesn't include Kraken or Oodle Textures. They have reasons for using Zlib and BCpak instead.

The problem is the assumptions being made. We don't no what compression is being used for any game. At least I don't remember seeing a single quote coming from the developer. All that is occurring in the thread is speculation on why the sizes are different.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The problem is the assumptions being made. We don't no what compression is being used for any game. At least I don't remember seeing a single quote coming from the developer. All that is occurring in the thread is speculation on why the sizes are different.

By standard, Xbox "offers" all-purpose, lossless ZLIB compression and proprietary BCPack lossy compression for textures. PS5, by standard, "offers" all-purpose, lossless Kraken compression and Oodle Texture lossy compression for textures. Xbox could use Kraken, and they could through all R&D of BCPack and use Oodle Texture as well. PS5 can use ZLIB as well, which it is on BC at least for PS4 games.

 

[Panajev2001a]

By standard, Xbox "offers" all-purpose, lossless ZLIB compression and proprietary BCPack lossy compression for textures. PS5, by standard, "offers" all-purpose, lossless Kraken compression and Oodle Texture lossy compression for textures. Xbox could use Kraken, and they could through all R&D of BCPack and use Oodle Texture as well. PS5 can use ZLIB as well, which it is on BC at least for PS4 games.

Minor correction: PS5 used Kraken for everything, but on top of that textures can be processed/optimised using Oodle Texture and then Kraken will be able to compress textures even better.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Minor correction: PS5 used Kraken for everything, but on top of that textures can be processed/optimised using Oodle Texture and then Kraken will be able to compress textures even better.

Yes, but Oodle Texuture works on a primitive way from the devs end, right? Before compressing the whole thing with Kraken?

 

[FrankWza]

I'm It's about storage space that is capable of playing next gen titles. It's relevant that Xbox Series X currently has an option to more than double its space that can launch and play next gen games. PS5 currently doesn't have any such option, but I do get the point of the thread.

I know it's definitely coming, but just acknowledging that it isn't here yet almost a year after release.

 

[Zoro7]

If people are going to talk about the storage option on the series X then we should also talk about the price of this option. That's over £600 for a series X with extra storage. Not everyone wants to spend that much on a console.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

If people are going to talk about the storage option on the series X then we should also talk about the price of this option. That's over £600 for a series X with extra storage. Not everyone wants to spend that much on a console.

If you don't play COD you don't need extra storage. Also good internet speeds (uncapped) makes expanding less and less necessary for most.

 

[DarkMage619]

If people are going to talk about the storage option on the series X then we should also talk about the price of this option. That's over £600 for a series X with extra storage. Not everyone wants to spend that much on a console.

Well it certainly is more expensive than than the PS5 option so there is no argument there.

 

[phil_t98]

Added to the OP. Thanks for your contribution.



I deal with children in a daily basis as a teacher, so I'm used to it.



What kinda research? If there is something wrong someone points it out and I edit, most of the threads lack the least amount of needed research to begin with.



That is faster by nature whether it's on CPU or decompressor. Also the Kraken decompressor on PS5 is equivalent of 9x Zen2 cores and totally independent vs the ZLIB decompressor on XSX is equivalent to 4x Zen2 cores + needs assist from the CPU. So in reality it's much bigger than 297% for Kraken here. But Kraken can be used on XSX to close the gap.

Research as in make sure the sizes are right befor posting

if its edited then that's cool

 

[M1chl]

To be honest to this topic, I don't think that MS will catch up with this, even with pure X|S games...maybe S version will come close.

And yes this contains info from some devs I know.

Nevertheless me with 1gbps fiber and being close to MS datacenter, I am here like this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Research as in make sure the sizes are right befor posting

if its edited then that's cool

Can't really nail all details myself, nor it's very easy to get them all. The help from many here should provide a better OP.

To be honest to this topic, I don't think that MS will catch up with this, even with pure X|S games...maybe S version will come close.

And yes this contains info from some devs I know.

Nevertheless me with 1gbps fiber and being close to MS datacenter, I am here like this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for the details. Also I myself don't think I'll need any expansion. I usually finish my games then delete them. And with 1Gbps it's a no brainer, I'm with 200Mbps and can download back most games within 10-30min and start playing.

But smaller games now gives more hope for moderate sizes in the future when games go crazy with their assets, or when using 1 asset like UE5 with extreme quality.

 

[geordiemp]

Hope you're doing great, mate. Excited week! Hope Man United snatches the Europa League Cup tonight!

Whats this Europa league thing ? Never heard of it ?

LOL

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Whats this Europa league thing ? Never heard of it ?

LOL

 

[dcmk7]

If people are going to talk about the storage option on the series X then we should also talk about the price of this option. That's over £600 for a series X with extra storage. Not everyone wants to spend that much on a console.

It is a lot of money.

A XSS with the expansion card is over £400, which isn't cheap at all considering it's made out to be a budget console.

An expansion card is the only option for any owner who wants to install something over than CoD.

 

[Pallas]

I think befor posting the data which makes them PS5 look massively better with instal sizes there should of been so research done. As people have posted the xbox games sizes are wrong and yes the majority are still smaller instal own PS5 they are way overblown on size for xbox. People right to call out something that isn't right. I hope its done in all threads where its proved wrong. No issue with Bo_Hazem posting it but when proved its wrong we move on

I was referring to this revelation. Since the information that was originally posted was not correct. FranXico

If it felt like I attacked you Bo_Hazem , that wasn't my intention, so apologies on that but I felt like you were perhaps overly excited at the positive information and didn't throughly investigate it.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I was referring to this revelation. Since the information that was originally posted was not correct. FranXico

If it felt like I attacked you Bo_Hazem , that wasn't my intention, so apologies on that but I felt like you were perhaps overly excited at the positive information and didn't throughly investigate it.

No worries, mate. I'm indeed excited, but had zero intention in spreading misinformation so I'm open for further investigation if someone with the games can help us edit the OP with accurate numbers.

 

[BigLee74]

Too many devs play foot loose and fancy free with installation sizes. They need to respect our download capabilities/speeds/caps, and storage space more.

So kudos to Sony here!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Too many devs play foot loose and fancy free with installation sizes. They need to respect our download capabilities/speeds/caps, and storage space more.

So kudos to Sony here!

While the GDK made it easy for devs to develop on PC/Xbox, I think that made them sloppy as well and packaging the whole thing in one file. Similar to PC when you choose your settings according to your hardware.

 

[Allandor]

PS5 will really have the space advantage when the SSD slot is enabled. A additional 2TB will go a long way, whenever that happens though.

I guess Microsoft can just release a 2TB card as well though.

In the long run, this might be better. But I really hope that the expansion slot of the xbox won't be seagate exclusive for the whole time. The cost-driving factor of that stick is, that is just uses one chip (high frequencies needed).
The expansion slot in the PS5 will be interesting once the m.2 SSDs aren't getting that hot. Cooling is a big problem, because the SSDs are reducing speed if they get to warm quite fast. Sonys solution to that problem was using 6 chips, so the heat is distributed quite well by design. But an m.2 SSD does normally not have 6 chips. So more heat is produced on a smaller area that is much harder to cool. I guess Sony thought that the industry would be more advanced at the launch of the PS5. So it needs a little bit longer to get that m.2 support out.
But I wish they would at least support m.2 SSDs for ps4 games.

While the GDK made it easy for devs to develop on PC/Xbox, I think that made them sloppy as well and packaging the whole thing in one file. Similar to PC when you choose your settings according to your hardware.

If I could decide if I publish one package that runs all machines or 2 packages with extra work (and a completely different toolchain), I would always decide to use the one-package for all system. Much easier to support in the long run.
Always when someone above me, decided that we release the same product in different packages for different target-plattforms (well same plattform but different iterations) we had more work with the support in the long run, because we had always to create 2 packages (ok, most of this is done automatically) but must always be managed twice (updated to the toolchain), always installed and tested twice, create readme-files twice, setup-files twice, ....
It is much easier to just have one package to serve them all
But yes, it also make you adopt newer stuff much slower. But you get even slower when you must always extra check the old path (in the long run).

 

[Bo_Hazem]

In the long run, this might be better. But I really hope that the expansion slot of the xbox won't be seagate exclusive for the whole time. The cost-driving factor of that stick is, that is just uses one chip (high frequencies needed).
The expansion slot in the PS5 will be interesting once the m.2 SSDs aren't getting that hot. Cooling is a big problem, because the SSDs are reducing speed if they get to warm quite fast. Sonys solution to that problem was using 6 chips, so the heat is distributed quite well by design. But an m.2 SSD does normally not have 6 chips. So more heat is produced on a smaller area that is much harder to cool. I guess Sony thought that the industry would be more advanced at the launch of the PS5. So it needs a little bit longer to get that m.2 support out.
But I wish they would at least support m.2 SSDs for ps4 games.

They're actually using 12 chips, but seem to be combined inside some kinda shell for each. It's 12 channel for 12 modules/chips.

Not sure if Sony wanna develop their own 825GB NVMe m.2 SSD with similar design or working closely with a partner already. They make memory cards, high quality ones. I mean, I bought a $400 CFexpress Type A 160GB card for Sony a7S III, and that weird 160GB instead of 128GB suggest something similar to the weird number of 825GB.

The size of m.2 length supported is also interesting, so there might be something cooking that's using all that length. Currently it should be at least a fast in/out cold storage for PS5 games and PS4 games. It should send games in/out much faster than a 10Gbps USB 3.2.

There is enough room to support even a big heatsink with fans without the door plate, or even some wacky designs without the side plate.

 

[SportsFan581]

What does Direct Storage have to do with game size? I thought the only reason why the PS5s is smaller is due to the compression used.

PS5 is shipping separate skus for PS4 and PS5, thus the compression blocks are definitely being utilized there. The Xbox side is murkier, we know that different packages are developed for the different consoles based on assets etc. but with file sizes typically near identical between 1X and XSX, devs could be going with a one-size-fits-all approach in regards to data compression on cross-gen titles. Will be interesting to see comparisons once both sides have next-gen only skus available to compare. Could be the same result, could be different, who knows.

 

[Qaloon]

I expressed my disappointment in the original list, but let's move on. We don't need to list war.

I'm actually curious to see how teams vary in their methods. I'll get on my Xbox and see if there's anything else I can share.

On a side note, I just noticed how comical some of the CoD install sizes are. My cousin installed Warzone on my PS5 and its now gasping for space. I'm actually offended.

 

[mckmas8808]

After seeing this, it makes me wonder why every videogame podcaster likes to talk about how they are running out of space on their PS5; but never say the samething about their Xbox Series X.

 

[NickFire]

After seeing this, it makes me wonder why every videogame podcaster likes to talk about how they are running out of space on their PS5; but never say the samething about their Xbox Series X.

Putting aside other possibilities, how much space do 360 games really take up?

 

[DarkMage619]

After seeing this, it makes me wonder why every videogame podcaster likes to talk about how they are running out of space on their PS5; but never say the samething about their Xbox Series X.

Well the XSX is starting from a higher amount. The Xbox Series also have additional storage options the PS5 lacks. As a poster pointed out earlier you can connect up to 3 additional drives + the internal storage card. That is not the same on PS5.

 

[TBiddy]

After seeing this, it makes me wonder why every videogame podcaster likes to talk about how they are running out of space on their PS5; but never say the samething about their Xbox Series X.

I assume most podcasters have external storage connected that they use to play some of the games from. It's a nice little feature you know.

edit:

Thanks for the reactions, Bo_Hazem . It's good for my achievement hunting. It's a little scary how much you stalk me, but each to their own I suppose <3

 

[Bo_Hazem]

After seeing this, it makes me wonder why every videogame podcaster likes to talk about how they are running out of space on their PS5; but never say the samething about their Xbox Series X.

Maybe because they have more games installed on PS5 to play, that's the only explanation.

 

[Physiognomonics]

On PS5 they can use native I/O meaning:

- Compressed with Kraken (~10% better than Xbox Zlib)
- deduplication of data because targeted for SSD (mandatory on all PS5 games)

On Xbox Series X they need to use PC compatible files:

- Zlib compression (even if others like Kraken should be possible, there is not enough hardware to decompress that on Xbox in real-time in most cases)
- Data duplication (like on PS4, XB1) because the game needs to run on slow HDDs.

 

[mckmas8808]

I assume most podcasters have external storage connected that they use to play some of the games from. It's a nice little feature you know.

edit:

Thanks for the reactions, Bo_Hazem . It's good for my achievement hunting. It's a little scary how much you stalk me, but each to their own I suppose <3

This is probably the reason.

 

[TBiddy]

This is probably the reason.

One of them. I know where you're going, of course. I assume you can handle a little fun going the other way as well.

 

[mckmas8808]

One of them. I know where you're going, of course. I assume you can handle a little fun going the other way as well.

Hmmmm.....you got me wondering where you thought I was going lol. So what do you mean?

 

[MasterCornholio]

On Xbox Series X they need to use PC compatible files:

- Zlib compression (even if others like Kraken should be possible, there is not enough hardware to decompress that on Xbox in real-time in most cases)
- Data duplication (like on PS4, XB1) because the game needs to run on slow HDDs.

I doubt the data duplication theory because there's no need to do that on the Series' X/S. They should be able to eliminate duplication without affecting the PC version.

 

[TBiddy]

Hmmmm.....you got me wondering where you thought I was going lol. So what do you mean?

Well, I assumed you were heading in the direction of "more games available for the PS5"?

 

[mckmas8808]

Well, I assumed you were heading in the direction of "more games available for the PS5"?

LOL!!! Nah. It just seems like a lot of podcasters these days love pumping up MS and the Xbox brand to a higher level than I think it's worth. I think MS is doing very well with the Xbox brand overall, but if I hear "Gamepass is the best deal in gaming™" I think I may throw-up. A lot of the times it feels like an infomercial.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I doubt the data duplication theory because there's no need to do that on the Series' X/S. They should be able to eliminate duplication without affecting the PC version.

Sure, with it's own specific version (like PS5 versio). But the publishers will never dedicate countless hours of work for something that won't give them more money. Not happening.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sure, with it's own specific version (like PS5 versio). But the publishers will never dedicate countless hours of work for something that won't give them more money. Not happening.

Microsoft probably gave them something to make that easy. Just seems like a dumb waste of space otherwise.

 

[TBiddy]

LOL!!! Nah. It just seems like a lot of podcasters these days love pumping up MS and the Xbox brand to a higher level than I think it's worth. I think MS is doing very well with the Xbox brand overall, but if I hear "Gamepass is the best deal in gaming™" I think I may throw-up. A lot of the times it feels like an infomercial.

Ahh, yeah you might be right about that. Aren't there rules thay state you must inform if you're doing paid content?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

On PS5 they can use native I/O meaning:

- Compressed with Kraken (~10% better than Xbox Zlib)
- deduplication of data because targeted for SSD (mandatory on all PS5 games)

On Xbox Series X they need to use PC compatible files:

- Zlib compression (even if others like Kraken should be possible, there is not enough hardware to decompress that on Xbox in real-time in most cases)
- Data duplication (like on PS4, XB1) because the game needs to run on slow HDDs.

Not sure if they'll cater the PC version as they seem to usually have different sizes. Also Kraken can work anywhere, it's nothing exclusive so they can use both. Bigger sizes can be because:

-Using ZLIB.
-BCPack might not be as effecient as Oodle Texture.
-Having more than version of the same game.
-Having more LOD's.

Duplicates? Not sure, that'll be pretty sloppy from the devs but could be.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Not sure if they'll cater the PC version as they seem to usually have different sizes. Also Kraken can work anywhere, it's nothing exclusive so they can use both. Bigger sizes can be because:

-Using ZLIB.
-BCPack might not be as effecient as Oodle Texture.
-Having more than version of the same game.
-Having more LOD's.

Duplicates? Not sure, that'll be pretty sloppy from the devs but could be.

Sure but doesn't Kraken need powerfull hardware to do that in real-time, notably for asset streaming in a open-world (which is what we are talking about) ?

 

[Sejan]

On PS5 they can use native I/O meaning:

- Compressed with Kraken (~10% better than Xbox Zlib)
- deduplication of data because targeted for SSD (mandatory on all PS5 games)

On Xbox Series X they need to use PC compatible files:

- Zlib compression (even if others like Kraken should be possible, there is not enough hardware to decompress that on Xbox in real-time in most cases)
- Data duplication (like on PS4, XB1) because the game needs to run on slow HDDs.

If they are removing data duplication from the PS5 then there is no reason not to do so on the Series X. They are doing a number of other steps to optimize for each system. It just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't do another.

 

[mckmas8808]

Ahh, yeah you might be right about that. Aren't there rules thay state you must inform if you're doing paid content?

Yes there is. And my wife is a blogger/influencer so I know how serious people take it when they get paid for content like that. So I don't think they're breaking the law and not reporting it. Which is why I'm so confused as to why some podcasters say things and write things that are just super stupid (with the idea that MS is doing everything right and Sony is doing lots of things wrong in this new generation).

The way they talk about Phil Spencer, you'd think he was running the Xbox brand better than Jim Ryan does Playstation or Iwata\Furukawa does Nintendo.

 

[Physiognomonics]

If they are removing data duplication from the PS5 then there is no reason not to do so on the Series X. They are doing a number of other steps to optimize for each system. It just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't do another.

Within a typical patching system similar to PC world (smart delivery). Deduplication of data is a completely different problem.

I think if they had an easy to use deduplication of data system available they whould have talked about it like they talked in length about every features in response to Cerny presentation (Ray Tracing, SSD, custom I/O, dedicated I/O hardware, 3D audio etc). But AFAIK they never had anything "me too" on Cerny deduplication of data.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Sure but doesn't Kraken need powerfull hardware to do that in real-time, notably for asset streaming in a open-world (which is what we are talking about) ?

It's 297% faster than ZLIB by default, and with a powerful decompressor it only gets better. It can be run on CPU as well and still performs faster and better in everyway than ZLIB.

 

[Kilau]

When I see 80-100 gigs requirement i start drooling. I love it!!! Something about installing a game that requires 100+ gigs of space makes me feel like I'm really getting my money's worth.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Within a typical patching system similar to PC world (smart delivery). Deduplication of data is a completely different problem.

I think if they had an easy to use deduplication of data system available they whould have talked about it like they talked in length about every features in response to Cerny presentation (Ray Tracing, SSD, custom I/O, dedicated I/O hardware, 3D audio etc). But AFAIK they never had anything "me too" on Cerny deduplication of data.

It's possible if it has the same size or near the size of the PC version that has HDD as a minimum requirement.

 

[Yoshi]

Maybe because they have more games installed on PS5 to play, that's the only explanation.

How is that the only explanation?
* The podcasters may use storage expansions on Xbox
* The podcasters may play different games on Xbox than PS5 which may be smaller (usually they won't have the same games installed on both systems)
* The podcasters may use bc extensively on Xbox, which increases the number of installable games because of the small sizes of Xbox 360 games
* They might care more about some PS5 games, so there are more games that they want to keep installed, limiting the variable space
* They may play games different to your arbitrary sample
* They may care more about PlayStation than Xbox, so issues with PlayStation are more important to them
* They may be filthy console warriors who get excited when they can complain about the system they like less (in this case: Filthy console warriors siding with Xbox)