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[Bitmap Frogs]

I know this forum doesn't really discuss mobile gaming, but I thought it'd be interesting to bring up the fact mobile gpu's keep marching onward and since the Switch successor is expected to follow suit, it is likely that nintendo's next console will also have a mobile-level chip inside.

Specs (from chipguider.com)

Name	Adreno 740
Codename (Generation)	7
Frequency	980 MHz
ALU	2048
Process	4 nm
GFLOPs FP32 (Single Precision)	2138 GFLOPs
Triangle Fillrate	2024 MT/s
Pixel Fillrate	30.6 GP/s
Memory bandwidth	64 GB/s
Release date	2022-08-01

 

[Draugoth]

I know this forum doesn't really discuss mobile gaming, but I thought it'd be interesting to bring up the fact mobile gpu's keep marching onward and since the Switch successor is expected to follow suit, it is likely that nintendo's next console will also have a mobile-level chip inside.

Gaming is Gaming, and more GPUs on the market is always good

 

[SF Kosmo]

Exciting to think what a Snapdragon XR chip would look like with this. Standalone VR would finally catch up to PSVR's rendering capacity.

 

[Tarin02543]

Good candidate for the Switch 3.

 

[Dural]

ARM's Immortalis G715 MC16 is at 3TF+ at 750mhz and also does ray tracing and I wouldn't doubt you can scale the core count like on the Mali GPUs to get more performance.

https://chipguider.com/?gpu=immortalis-g715-mc16

 

[Kazekage1981]

the upcoming Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra has a customized snapdragon specifically for Samsung and its GPU is getting close to Apple M1

 

[Magic Carpet]

Makes me wonder what caused the Apple snafu with the new chip they had to delay. I imagine they were packing in these raytracing features and then somebody walked into the lab with a ham sandwich and mentioned that they probably could wait a few more years.

 

[Ronin_7]

Mobile GPUs are incredible these days! Still miles year behind PS5 GPU but for such small devices is actually insane.

I have Snapdragon 888, 830.000 AnTuTu bench & can run any game easily at 40-60fps.

My phone for the basic tasks i use already flies, it's faster than my own Laptop for everything

 

[Thebonehead]

Makes me wonder what caused the Apple snafu with the new chip they had to delay. I imagine they were packing in these raytracing features and then somebody walked into the lab with a ham sandwich and mentioned that they probably could wait a few more years.

The core designers and engineers of the M chips left for Pay Days at Intel & Microsoft

 

[Esppiral]

Games like Wreck fest are absolutely stunning on a cell phone, rivaling the graphics quality of a PS4, and now that switch emulation is a thing and I can play many ps360 ports on it and native switch games I realize how underutilized this GPUs are, my snapdragon 888 is way more powerful than I thought.

 

[Haint]

Just goes to show you have far ahead of everyone else Nvidia really is. The Tegra X1 is nearing a decade old on an ancient process node and surpassed 1TF at it's default clocks (not underclocked like Switch). Took 8 years for their competitor's to Moores Law it. ARM GPU designers make AMD look competent.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Wonder how the first gen of mobile chips with Ray tracing will do thermal wise

 

[Klosshufvud]

Just goes to show you have far ahead Nvidia is. The Tegra X1 is nearing a decade old on an ancient process node and surpassed 1TF at it's default clocks (not underclocked like Switch). Took 8 years for their competitor's to Moores Law it. ARM GPU designers make AMD look competent.

To be fair, RDNA2 architecture is really good. So much that Samsung used RDNA2 in its own flagship phones recently. At low wattages, they perform really well. But we haven't seen Nvidia bet big on mobile chips in a long time now. They would probably dominate hard if they did.

 

[Haint]

To be fair, RDNA2 architecture is really good. So much that Samsung used RDNA2 in its own flagship phones recently. At low wattages, they perform really well. But we haven't seen Nvidia bet big on mobile chips in a long time now. They would probably dominate hard if they did.

A modern 4nm Tegra based on Ada could likely reach a minimum of 5 - 6TF and be roughly equivalent to PS5/SX at lower resolutions. They could easily trounce Series S with a 15 - 25W chip. Again, they surpassed 1TF on 20nm 8 years ago.

 

[Kazekage1981]

To be fair, RDNA2 architecture is really good. So much that Samsung used RDNA2 in its own flagship phones recently. At low wattages, they perform really well. But we haven't seen Nvidia bet big on mobile chips in a long time now. They would probably dominate hard if they did.

I wish AMD would make ARM based Zen/RDNA CPU/GPU/APU. But then they would be competing with too many companies. Team Red is already competing against team blue and green and adding team purple to the list would be a lot of strain.

I think for Android Smartphones, and Windows 11 ARM devices need strong hardware competition. Qualcomm's chips are just recently getting beefy. Imagine Android phones running on Zen/RDNA ARM, and Windows 11 running on Zen/RDNA ARM.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I know this forum doesn't really discuss mobile gaming, but I thought it'd be interesting to bring up the fact mobile gpu's keep marching onward and since the Switch successor is expected to follow suit, it is likely that nintendo's next console will also have a mobile-level chip inside.

Specs (from chipguider.com)

Name	Adreno 740
Codename (Generation)	7
Frequency	980 MHz
ALU	2048
Process	4 nm
GFLOPs FP32 (Single Precision)	2138 GFLOPs
Triangle Fillrate	2024 MT/s
Pixel Fillrate	30.6 GP/s
Memory bandwidth	64 GB/s
Release date	2022-08-01

Are these specs official from Qualcomm? IIRC, at least up until Anton Shilov / Nebuchadnezzar left anandtech they never publicly disclosed specs like ALU amount or fillrate.

While the Adreno GPUs are top notch in terms of performance-per-watt in ULP applications, I'm not sure of how effective their compute throughput is in gaming, when compared to AMD and Nvidia architectures.
They have ray tracing acceleration but so did the Exynos 2100 with its RDNA2 GPU.


Regardless, this would only be useful for a console using a Qualcomm SoC (Switch successor?). Otherwise, android gaming is just very terrible.

 

[Dural]

Just goes to show you have far ahead Nvidia is. The Tegra X1 is nearing a decade old on an ancient process node and surpassed 1TF at it's default clocks (not underclocked like Switch). Took 8 years for their competitor's to Moores Law it. ARM GPU designers make AMD look competent.

A modern 4nm Tegra based on Ada could likely reach a minimum of 5 - 6TF and be roughly equivalent to PS5/SX at lower resolutions. They could easily trounce Series S with a 15 - 25W chip. Again, they surpassed 1TF on 20nm 8 years ago.

Yep, it's pretty sad how bad Qualcomm and ARM have been with the mobile GPUs. Hopefully AMD will get some more customers for RDNA based GPUs like Samsung's Exynos 2200.

 

[Deerock71]

I'm going out on a limb (a mighty sturdy fucking limb, I'd wager) and state Nintendo's got 99 problems working out the details of the Switch 2, and raytracing's not one of them.

 

[Klosshufvud]

A modern 4nm Tegra based on Ada could likely reach a minimum of 5 - 6TF and be roughly equivalent to PS5/SX at lower resolutions. They could easily trounce Series S with a 15 - 25W chip. Again, they surpassed 1TF on 20nm 8 years ago.

Are you talking about the Tegra used for Nvidia Shield? I don't think that was 1TF. It was .15TF for portable Switch, 0,3TF for docked Switch and something like 0.5TF for Shield. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Either way, no way Nvidia can develop a 5TF APU that also manages CPU on a 25W power envelope. We're simply not there yet. Not even Nvidia is.

 

[Panajev2001a]

A modern 4nm Tegra based on Ada could likely reach a minimum of 5 - 6TF and be roughly equivalent to PS5/SX at lower resolutions. They could easily trounce Series S with a 15 - 25W chip. Again, they surpassed 1TF on 20nm 8 years ago.

Where is the evidence they have such a powerful low power chip (15W or so?).  could build an EPYC competitor, but how easily can they ?

 

[BeardGawd]

the upcoming Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra has a customized snapdragon specifically for Samsung and its GPU is getting close to Apple M1

That Adreno740 is really impressive at 7.5 Watts. What's the catch?

 

[Haint]

Are you talking about the Tegra used for Nvidia Shield? I don't think that was 1TF. It was .15TF for portable Switch, 0,3TF for docked Switch and something like 0.5TF for Shield. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Either way, no way Nvidia can develop a 5TF APU that also manages CPU on a 25W power envelope. We're simply not there yet. Not even Nvidia is.

The Shield TV is 1 Teraflop, Nintendo underclocks the snot out of Switch. Tegra X1 was completed way back in early 2015

Where is the evidence they have such a powerful low power chip (15W or so?).  could build an EPYC competitor, but how easily can they ?

There's not any evidence, cause they abandoned the market when they couldn't find buyers/partners for their mobile SOCs. I'm speaking of the hypothetical where they did continue with the same level of investment.

 

[OverHeat]

Faster then steam deck impossible

 

[Romulus]

Exciting to think what a Snapdragon XR chip would look like with this. Standalone VR would finally catch up to PSVR's rendering capacity.

If you look at Iron Man VR on PSVR and Quest 2, it's really close having owned both. The textures are better on PSVR1, but the resolution if far improved on Quest 2

 

[sachos]

So Switch 2 has potential to be stronger than a PS4 uh. What could Monolith Soft do with that power.

 

[Buggy Loop]

So Switch 2 has potential to be stronger than a PS4 uh. What could Monolith Soft do with that power.

They could do their art justice for one

Imagine that in an open world

Already mind boggling what they did on Wii U for Xenoblade Chronicles X.

 

[PonyStation4]

That Adreno740 is really impressive at 7.5 Watts. What's the catch?

$1200 phone

The benchmark doesn't mention if it's Samsungs exclusive SD8gen2

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The bandwidth is fucking awful. This is like the equivalent of a PS4 GPU with less than half the memory bandwidth.

Unless this thing has some serious on-die cache, I can't see how this thing won't be horribly bandwidth starved.

 

[onnextflix5]

While Nivida has not released a single consumer mobile apu since tegra for the switch, dumb shortsighted move form Nintendo to use nivida, they only care about money,

 

[Black_Stride]

Nvidias Orin is already ~5TFs.
Assuming the Super Switch is sticking with Nvidia then whatever SoC they put in that should easily be more efficient than Orin which is Ampere based and match a PS4 Pro.
Now I know some may be disappointed but in my eyes if a Super Switch had PS4 Pro levels of power and access to DLSS........id be stocked as shit.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Nvidias Orin is already ~5TFs.
Assuming the Super Switch is sticking with Nvidia then whatever SoC they put in that should easily be more efficient than Orin which is Ampere based and match a PS4 Pro.
Now I know some may be disappointed but in my eyes if a Super Switch had PS4 Pro levels of power and access to DLSS........id be stocked as shit.

Yeah Switch 2 is not matching a PS4 Pro. Steam Deck using the absolute latest APU on the market is on par with a PS4, with a 15W power envelope. Nintendo won't tolerate a battery life of mere 2 hours. They'll probably reduce TDP to something like 7W which they usually do and save on battery in turn. The technology does not exist today to push 5TF on an APU on a 15W power budget. It's simply fantasy.

 

[sinnergy]

Yeah Switch 2 is not matching a PS4 Pro. Steam Deck using the absolute latest APU on the market is on par with a PS4, with a 15W power envelope. Nintendo won't tolerate a battery life of mere 2 hours. They'll probably reduce TDP to something like 7W which they usually do and save on battery in turn. The technology does not exist today to push 5TF on an APU on a 15W power budget. It's simply fantasy.

Yup but every 7 years we have these threads , back to the 90s Gameboy era.. tells you something about humankind.

 

[sinnergy]

While Nivida has not released a single consumer mobile apu since tegra for the switch, dumb shortsighted move form Nintendo to use nivida, they only care about money,

Very stupid … Switch only sold millions

 

[Black_Stride]

Yeah Switch 2 is not matching a PS4 Pro. Steam Deck using the absolute latest APU on the market is on par with a PS4, with a 15W power envelope. Nintendo won't tolerate a battery life of mere 2 hours. They'll probably reduce TDP to something like 7W which they usually do and save on battery in turn. The technology does not exist today to push 5TF on an APU on a 15W power budget. It's simply fantasy.

We havent seen Nvidias Orin successor yet.
But we know it exists
Its called Thor.

You say the technology doesn't exist, but what you mean is you just havent seen the technology.
Ada is much more power efficient than Ampere.
Big Orin is 5TF in 15 - 60W.
If Thor is more efficient than that which it logically should be being Ada based, then ~5TFs is more than reasonable.

The SteamDeck was using an RDNA2 GPU not even RDNA3 so it might as well be a lastgen machine not worth bringing up vs a Thor based Super Switch.
If the Super Switch is using Ada it could make ~5TF and still be power efficient.......now obviously if its a Switch it wont be using the full ~5TF in handheld mode.
Or it could have powerlimits depending on the game so some games limit it to 2TF some to 3TF etc etc.

Every piece of technology thats a fantasy..........is a fantasy until it actually comes out.
If the Super Switch is sticking with Nvidia, you can quote me on this itll be in the 4 - 5TF range.

 

[winjer]

 

[Klosshufvud]

We havent seen Nvidias Orin successor yet.
But we know it exists
Its called Thor.

You say the technology doesn't exist, but what you mean is you just havent seen the technology.
Ada is much more power efficient than Ampere.
Big Orin is 5TF in 15 - 60W.
If Thor is more efficient than that which it logically should be being Ada based, then ~5TFs is more than reasonable.

The SteamDeck was using an RDNA2 GPU not even RDNA3 so it might as well be a lastgen machine not worth bringing up vs a Thor based Super Switch.
If the Super Switch is using Ada it could make ~5TF and still be power efficient.......now obviously if its a Switch it wont be using the full ~5TF in handheld mode.
Or it could have powerlimits depending on the game so some games limit it to 2TF some to 3TF etc etc.

Every piece of technology thats a fantasy..........is a fantasy until it actually comes out.
If the Super Switch is sticking with Nvidia, you can quote me on this itll be in the 4 - 5TF range.

RDNA3 at its best has like 20% gain on RDNA2. And RDNA3 APUs don't even exist yet so I don't see what your point is claiming RDNA2 is last gen. It's still top of the line APU GPU cores. Big Orin being 5TF is plausible at 60W I guess. But not at 15W. Nvidia is not THAT ahead of AMD. And finally, Switch 2 will not be in the 4-5TF range. Best case scenario, it matches Steam Deck compute power. More plausible scenario is it being around the 1TF range in portable mode with the head room to save on battery. Nintendo has also traditionally not opted for the latest, most expensive cutting-edge technology. If a cheaper chip exists that serves their needs, they will opt for that.

 

[Black_Stride]

RDNA3 at its best has like 20% gain on RDNA2. And RDNA3 APUs don't even exist yet so I don't see what your point is claiming RDNA2 is last gen. It's still top of the line APU GPU cores. Big Orin being 5TF is plausible at 60W I guess. But not at 15W. Nvidia is not THAT ahead of AMD. And finally, Switch 2 will not be in the 4-5TF range. Best case scenario, it matches Steam Deck compute power. More plausible scenario is it being around the 1TF range in portable mode with the head room to save on battery. Nintendo has also traditionally not opted for the latest, most expensive cutting-edge technology. If a cheaper chip exists that serves their needs, they will opt for that.

Bookmarked this to gloat later.

SuperSwitch 4-5TF docked.
Whatever in handheld mode.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Bookmarked this to gloat later.

SuperSwitch 4-5TF docked.
Whatever in handheld mode.

So you think Switch 2, which also has to be an handheld, will be more powerful than a Series S. And Nintendo will make it affordable and not lose a ton of money on each sale.

When has Nintendo done anything like that in their history?

 

[Mownoc]

Just goes to show you have far ahead of everyone else Nvidia really is. The Tegra X1 is nearing a decade old on an ancient process node and surpassed 1TF at it's default clocks (not underclocked like Switch). Took 8 years for their competitor's to Moores Law it. ARM GPU designers make AMD look competent.

The Tegra X1 is 0.5TF in FP32, the underclock for the switch docked brings it down to 0.4TF. You are using FP16 half-precision figures for the X1.

The Adreno 530 clocked at 624mhz in the Snapdragon 820 was also 0.5TF of FP32 at the end of 2015.

The Tegra X1 ran at a TDP of 15w to get those figures, the Snapdragon 820 ran at 11w TDP.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

So you think Switch 2, which also has to be an handheld, will be more powerful than a Series S. And Nintendo will make it affordable and not lose a ton of money on each sale.

I'm not saying it will happen but keep in mind the Switch 2 will likely release 3-4 years after the Series S did. It's not unreasonable that in docked mode it could be fairly close. A Steam Deck is ~1.6TF and it's a year old at this point and doesn't have a dock that ups its clock speeds. It wouldn't surprise me if in a year or two nvidia can produce something with better handheld performance and certainly docked performance for around the same cost when you have to imagine the volumes would be much larger than a more niche product like Deck

 

[Black_Stride]

So you think Switch 2, which also has to be an handheld, will be more powerful than a Series S. And Nintendo will make it affordable and not lose a ton of money on each sale.

When has Nintendo done anything like that in their history?

When they released the Switch a console that had circa performace of the home console known as the Xbox One.
It was 300/350 dollars so I dont know if an Xbox One tier console costing 300/350 is exactly affordable considering by then the Xbox One was like 4 years old.

Now if we apply the same logic.
They release a Series S/PS4Pro tier console 4 years after the Series S and a whopping 8 years after the PS4 Pro sell it for ~400 dollars.
Is that affordable? I dont know....I didnt think the Switch was affrodable at launch, but it still sold gangbusters.
Would they be making massive losses per sale....I dont even know if they are making or losing money on the Switch as is.
If you have any links to that information ill gladly give them a read.

I also have no idea how much a Thor/Ada based APU would cost, cuz I dont know what CPU cores they would choose for the device.
But theres no way an Nvidia based Super Switch would use Ampere....too power hungry, so it would likely be Ada and not Blackwell......so the architecture would already be 2 years old by then.


Edit. We are only talking about GPU side of things, we dont know what CPU they would use in the Super Switch, it would have to be super low power, so saying the console as a whole is SeriesS/PS4Pro level isnt exactly right.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Yeah Switch 2 is not matching a PS4 Pro. Steam Deck using the absolute latest APU on the market is on par with a PS4, with a 15W power envelope. Nintendo won't tolerate a battery life of mere 2 hours. They'll probably reduce TDP to something like 7W which they usually do and save on battery in turn. The technology does not exist today to push 5TF on an APU on a 15W power budget. It's simply fantasy.

According to the benchmarks winjer posted, the gpu consumes about 8 watts at ful tilt.

Reportedly the device he's using to test it, the qualcomm reference device, is equipped with LDRR5x, the latest revision.

 

[Mownoc]

I'm not saying it will happen but keep in mind the Switch 2 will likely release 3-4 years after the Series S did. It's not unreasonable that in docked mode it could be fairly close. A Steam Deck is ~1.6TF and it's a year old at this point and doesn't have a dock that ups its clock speeds. It wouldn't surprise me if in a year or two nvidia can produce something with better handheld performance and certainly docked performance for around the same cost when you have to imagine the volumes would be much larger than a more niche product like Deck

Nintendo's next console is very unlikely to launch with state of the art tech though. After all the Tegra X1 was practically 2 years old when the Switch launched so chips available today are a likely candidate.

Nvidia's latest chip which has a reasonable TDP for a handheld (15 Watt) launches this month, the Tegra Orin Nano 8GB which gets 1.28TF.

It's unlikely Nintendo's next console will use a newer generation chip than this if it launches in 2024 but even if it did it's not going to be triple that power and that's before any potential down clocking by Nintendo.

 

[Black_Stride]

Nintendo's next console is very unlikely to launch with state of the art tech though. After all the Tegra X1 was practically 2 years old when the Switch launched so chips available today are a likely candidate.

Nvidia's latest chip which has a reasonable TDP for a handheld (15 Watt) launches this month, the Tegra Orin Nano 8GB which gets 1.28TF.

It's unlikely Nintendo's next console will use a newer generation chip than this if it launches in 2024 but even if it did it's not going to be triple that power and that's before any potential down clocking by Nintendo.

Orin is still Ampere based.
Thats a 2 year old architecture.
Thor is Ada based.
If the Super Switch comes out in 2024, then by then Ada will be 2 years old which kinda lines up even with your own predictions no?

 

[Klosshufvud]

Bookmarked this to gloat later.

SuperSwitch 4-5TF docked.
Whatever in handheld mode.

I'd love to be wrong too since that would mean there is huge leaps in technology being made without my knowing. But I'll reserve my expectations.

Nintendo's next console is very unlikely to launch with state of the art tech though. After all the Tegra X1 was practically 2 years old when the Switch launched so chips available today are a likely candidate.

Nvidia's latest chip which has a reasonable TDP for a handheld (15 Watt) launches this month, the Tegra Orin Nano 8GB which gets 1.28TF.

It's unlikely Nintendo's next console will use a newer generation chip than this if it launches in 2024 but even if it did it's not going to be triple that power and that's before any potential down clocking by Nintendo.

This is what I believe too.

 

[Mownoc]

Orin is still Ampere based.
Thats a 2 year old architecture.
Thor is Ada based.
If the Super Switch comes out in 2024, then by then Ada will be 2 years old which kinda lines up even with your own predictions no?

No because I'm going by the age of the chip not the graphics architecture. If we go by that though then the Maxwell in the Tegra X1 powering the Switch was released February 2014. Over 3 years prior.

 

[Larogue]

the upcoming Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra has a customized snapdragon specifically for Samsung and its GPU is getting close to Apple M1

Glad to see it smoking iPhone's SoC both in performance and power efficiency.

Qualcomm & Mediatek are godsend for the mobile phone world.

 

[Black_Stride]

I'd love to be wrong too since that would mean there is huge leaps in technology being made without my knowing. But I'll reserve my expectations.

People said the same thing when the first Ada rumors showed up.
More power efficient and near double the power of a 3090?
No way, there is no technology that efficient.

Fast forward a year and Ada basically delivered everything that was rumored.
Ada is way way more power efficient than Ampere and legit delivers near double the performance.

4TF docked doesnt even sound that extreme for a 2024 Nintendo console.
Not sure why people think it should be closer to 1.2TF.

 

[Dream-Knife]

Orin is still Ampere based.
Thats a 2 year old architecture.
Thor is Ada based.
If the Super Switch comes out in 2024, then by then Ada will be 2 years old which kinda lines up even with your own predictions no?

The Switch came out in 2017, using a chip from 2015, based on architecture from 2014.

Nintendo will use what exists, not something in the future.

 

[old-parts]

If Qualcomm can get its windows adreno drivers into better shape it will be interesting to see what it can do there as Qualcomm wants to break out of the mobile space and have Arm Windows PC's be more common. You can see some benchmarks of the Adreno 685 running on win 11 and its in 20-30's low details considering its also being emulated so not bad but a number of games simply dont run.

The only reason I think Nintendo would ever use anyone else is price and security, the performance is irrelevant so long as its good enough. What Nintendo wants is value and no-one jail breaking the Switch 2, I don't think Qualcomm is any better or worse than Nvidia in this regard.