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[EviLore]

“A lot of the TV now has the patina of a movie. They're using cinematic language to get you caught up…while I'm watching [Yellowstone], I am compelled…but at the end of the day, it's all just a soap opera. They've introduced you to a bunch of characters. You actually kind of know all their backstories. […]You don't remember it 5 years from now. You're caught up in the minutia of it at the moment. The difference [with film] is I'll see a good western movie and I'll remember it for the rest of my life. I'll remember the story. I'll remember this scene or that scene. It built to an emotional climax of some degree…it's not just about interpersonal relationships. The story is good itself but there's a payoff. There's not a payoff on [a lot of TV]. It's just more inter-connectional drama. While I'm watching it, that's good enough. But when it’s over, I couldn’t tell you anything about the show."



Always felt the same way about most live action TV. It's just a soap opera, increasingly with superficial trappings of cinema. HBO did the most to break that mold with shows that would stay with you forever, like Rome and The Wire and True Detective S1 and early Game of Thrones. A lot of good anime breaks that mold too by telling proper stories and utilizing the long format medium and creative opportunities of animation.

 

[Big Baller]

 

[od-chan]

Always felt the same way about most live action TV

See, now I kinda get the sentiment, but then again, doesn't this pretty much apply to everything? Like how most studio movies are just hastly thrown together (in terms of narrative) set pieces with some big names attached in order to make a quick buck? Or how most video games are trash? And yes, most live action TV does suck. Not necessarly because it's a "soap opera"; soap opera is just used as a derogatory term here to describe bad writing.

In that same vein, I don't really get Tarantino's point on this, but admiteddly I'm too lazy to watch the whole 2 hour thing. Maybe they're just making conversation. Again, most of everything sucks and yes, Yellowstone sucks especially bad, so does Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo.

Just to quickly add, Tarantino does also highlight himself TV Shows that work well (like Homeland S1), and there's plenty more examples (Shogun, Fargo, Chernobyl...), that's why I'm saying: you always gotta pick your cherries.

 

[Brazen]

Can't argue with the man whose engraved Pulp Fiction and Kill Bill into my mind ever after.
I think anything done really well is the exception though, lots of exceptions. Another example, I would put Spartacus S1 up against even the like of Gladiator any day.

 

[T8SC]

TV shows get flogged to death. The good ones tend to start well, gain popularity, make money then end up being strung out for too long and become garbage. Similar to horror movies of the 80s/90s.

Unfortunately, very few TV shows end on a high. You could argue this for some movies too, but generally to a lesser extent.

Binge watch culture doesn't help, people tend to want more.

 

[Little Mac]

Thank god. I thought I was the only one. I can't remember shit when it comes to television. I thought it was a byproduct from binging ... Since alot of these streaming series take several years between seasons, I have to either rewatch seasons or hunt down recap videos on YouTube to remind me who everyone is and why I liked the show.

 

[The Cockatrice]

He's not wrong but also wrong. The problem is that there are too many decent-good shows and very few truly amazing where as there are very few great movies, and too many average ones. Who can say they forgot Breaking Bad? The Office? GoT?

 

[CoreyFlawless]

When they go on for so long and doing what they can to extend it, I agree for sure. But there tv shows like breaking bad, true detective, band of brothers, a few on hbo. That I believe does great.

 

[mansoor1980]

 

[DrFigs]

I thought this was actually incoherent. And he's definitely better as a filmmaker than a critic.

It's easier to recall an hour and 30 minutes of a film than it is 8-20 hours of a tv show season. that's not a surprising or an interesting insight.

 

[jufonuk]

Depends on the show and the movie.

TV shows can allow more time for character development but if they are a 22 episode per season show. You cannot remember it all.

A lot of modern films don’t like slow paced stuff they have to speed through or so it seems.

Again a great film can condense so much into the shorter run time so will have great set pieces etc. so can a well paced series.

I’m sure had pesky blinders decided to go for an American season length it would have shite episodes. (Haven’t seen all of it just throwing an example out)

look at band of brothers and saving private ryan. Both top notch in their perspective fields. Both compliment each other.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I agree. I think TV is just cut movie with a lot of filler in order to either drive engagement, or because you think people are too stupid to sit through 2 hours of a movie. When you consider TikTok and constant scrolling - you are probably right.
At home I really started to cut down on TV series for kids - you want to watch TV? Ok, we watch a movie as a family, not bite-sized pieces of nothing.

 

[CGNoire]

Its alot easier to remember a 2hr film than a 22hr show.

 

[XXL]

He's 100% correct. TV shows generally just float around on inter-personal drama at the expense of plot and that makes the story beats less memorable.

This is why I love Midnight Mass soooo much. The 7 (or 8) Episode format allows the plot to keep developing instead of getting bogged down with character driven drama and it ends up being just a long movie with a story that would be impossible to tell in 2hrs.

I also think the episodic format (like TNG for example) works better for pretty much the same reasons, ironically....its just more condensed.

I love hearing Tarantino talk about movies, he has some great perspectives.

 

[Trilobit]

They are very different mediums. Something like Severance wouldn't work as a movie and something like The Thing wouldn't work as a show. I'll say this though, the strength of TV shows is that they can delve deeper into characters and their lives, but too often they fill out the extra time with uninteresting stuff instead. Just take the recent Day of the Jackal show which has tons of filler about the MI6 agent's grumpy husband and one-dimensional daughter. It's basically over 50% bloat and the movie from the 70's does much more and was ten times more thrilling.

 

[AJUMP23]

I remember some TV shows. But I like movies more.

 

[Aesius]

Great TV shows go toe-to-toe with the best movies. But so few great TV shows stay great from beginning to end. Especially in the streaming era.

It’s gotten to the point where I’m hesitant to start shows that haven’t already ended with great reviews throughout because there’s such a high probability that they will turn to shit.

I think the best shows are those with limited seasons and the ending already mapped out early on and miniseries. Chernobyl and Band of Brothers are superior to any movies that have or could be made about their subject matter IMO. They give you a chance to really get to know the characters while not overstaying their welcome.

 

[Sybrix]

He's not wrong but also wrong. The problem is that there are too many decent-good shows and very few truly amazing where as there are very few great movies, and too many average ones. Who can say they forgot Breaking Bad? The Office? GoT?

Yeah, that's what i was thinking.

Breaking Bad i can remember every character, their arc's, the good guys, the bad guys & i'll never forget Breaking Bad ever.

Same with Game of Thornes & Band of Brothers.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

They are very different mediums. Something like Severance wouldn't work as a movie and something like The Thing wouldn't work as a show. I'll say this though, the strength of TV shows is that they can delve deeper into characters and their lives, but too often they fill out the extra time with uninteresting stuff instead. Just take the recent Day of the Jackal show which has tons of filler about the MI6 agent's grumpy husband and one-dimensional daughter. It's basically over 50% bloat and the movie from the 70's does much more and was ten times more thrilling.

I had to drop that show due to that

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Most TV is made as disposable entertainment for streaming services. Taylor Sheridan is making like 7 shows at once so it's not the best example.

 

[diffusionx]

He's right. These shows drag on way too long as well. Like the one I always bring up is Billions, it was a good show, but you could have told the entire story in one or two totally brilliant movies. The rest was just rehashing and going around in circles. To use QT's example, does anyone rtemember anything that actually happened in that show? Whereas, say, Wall Street from 1987 or whatever is one of the great movies.

 

[Bojji]

Depending of tv show, shorter ones usually have story wrapped up. I think Dark is great example - story is good/interesting from start to finish (4 seasons), same is true for Utopia (2 seasons) and some others.

Animes that aren't shounens usually have their story wrapped up in 12 or 24 episodes - story this long couldn't be done in one movie (without shitty cuts). Many of them are amazing and I remember them.

But yeah, there are many tv shows that are like Brazilian telenovelas (super popular in Poland, in modern times replaced with Mexican and Turkish ones) but mostly for men instead of women.

 

[thefool]

I wholeheartedly agree, especially because i've written about the sentiment.
Biggest problem with tv is that every series is made to generate more episodes instead of actually trying to tell a story in a long format.
Look at a great show like Succession. Its 4 seasons of the same thing that could easily been told in 1-2 tops. We're potentially talking about 20 hours, which is an insane amount of time to tell a story.

 

[jason10mm]

He's 100% correct. TV shows generally just float around on inter-personal drama at the expense of plot and that makes the story beats less memorable.

I agree!

This is why I love Midnight Mass soooo much. The 7 (or 8) Episode format allows the plot to keep developing instead of getting bogged down with character driven drama and it ends up being just a long movie with a story that would be impossible to tell in 2hrs.

And you lost me. MM I thought lacked much real punch, especially compared to what he did with his first netflix mini (was that Bly Manor?) with the daughter reveal.

Anyway, what QT is saying is that while TV can deliver "in the moment", it's structure, the focus on interpersonal drama instead of a specific problem, and the ensemble nature of the cast prevent it from being able to deliver TRUELY memorable narratives with the emotional weight of a film. Even todays heavily serialized shows are just, at best, taking a single film and stretching it out for 8-10 hours. In doing this they over-explain, have too much build-up, the side characters are given too much attention that distracts from the leads, and this is all OKAY, even necessary, but the trade-off is that crystallization of the emotional weight into a 90 minute tour de force that never out stays it's welcome, doesn't repeat itself, and keeps it's novelty.

When you think back on TV, it's almost always the characters you remember, with maybe some specific instances ('no soup for you!'). But a film....that can have an impact that far exceeds any TV show and do it with no wasted space. I just watched "Home Alone" and that film is sublime with how EVERY SCENE is working to enable a later decision or set up an emotional moment. Nothing is fluff, no line is extraneous, it's been stripped of all fat in service of Kevin learning responsibility. So you can take a ride in that film you just can't if there was a TV show because then you'd get 60 minutes of the thieves back story, 60 minutes of the kid across the street, 2 hours of the old man and his estranged kids, Kevin being more of a slob before he matures, probably 3-4 moments when he gets captured and then escapes, over and over, etc.

 

[SlimySnake]

That's mostly because Taylor sheridan is making like 7 shows at once. Mayor of Easttown season 1 was phenomenal. 1883 was phenomenal. But you cant keep it up when you are pawning off the scripts to other writers.

And Yellowstone IS a soap opera.

I still remember every season of the Wire, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, Mad Men. But there are very few great tv writers and the golden age of tv died a good 10 years ago.

 

[analog_future]

Tarantino's incredible but i dunno, there's plenty of top-tier shows that I absolutely remember 5+ years later.

Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Better Call Saul, The Leftovers, Six Feet Under, True Detective, etc.. etc..


Depends on the show, I guess.

 

[TheAtomicPile]

Tarantino's incredible but i dunno, there's plenty of top-tier shows that I absolutely remember 5+ years later.

Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Better Call Saul, The Leftovers, Six Feet Under, True Detective, etc.. etc..


Depends on the show, I guess.

There are definitely exceptions like the ones you listed. I wonder what Tarantino would have said if Joe had asked him, "What about Breaking Bad? You remember that one right?"

However, I've been agreeing with his overall point more and more lately. I'm watching Dark Crystal Age of Resistance now and it really did not need to be 10 episodes at about an hour a piece. Would have worked much better as a 2 hour movie.

In general, I just don't like the time investment required with most shows. People will recommend a show, then say, "Just wait until season three, that's when it gets good." No thanks.

 

[Chuck Berry]

That whole episode was awesome

Loved Avary's take on Eyes Wide Shut

EviLore have you listened to their Video Archives podcast? I can listen to those guys discuss and dissect any type of movie. Every episode is educational and entertaining.

 

[EviLore]

That whole episode was awesome

Loved Avary's take on Eyes Wide Shut

EviLore have you listened to their Video Archives podcast? I can listen to those guys discuss and dissect any type of movie. Every episode is educational and entertaining.

I have not, but will check it out!

 

[Chuck Berry]

I have not, but will check it out!

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Easier to remember what happens in a two hour movie, which everyone can talk about it together. Compared to 7 seasons of a TV show consisting of 100+ episodes where only the most hardcore person will watch and remember them all.

 

[bender]

Easier to remember what happens in a two hour movie, which everyone can talk about it together. Compared to 7 seasons of a TV show consisting of 100+ episodes where only the most hardcore person will watch and remember them all.

That's part of the "problem" as TV Shows usually run for as long as they can maintain viewership. You can have pre-determined arcs and an estimated plan for seasons with padding to get there, but what happens if you exceed those estimates? Probably better than the other alternative that leaves stories unfinished.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I think that is true of most TV but a lot of what gets labeled “Prestige” is fairly different.

Yellowstone ain’t that, I think most people would watching it with any media literacy have probably said “it’s like a soap opera.” I know I did lol.

But when a new season of something like Breaking Bad airs I didn’t need reminding of what happened the previous season, and still to this day I can recall most of the plot.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I’d argue that each obviously have their own pluses and minuses. But, on a whole, tv is better and has more opportunity to be better.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

Kinda off topic but awesome nonetheless

 

[EverydayBeast]

Movies connect with people more, tv shows host good episodes (breaking bad, dragon ball z) but movies are legendary while tv shows are fringe.

 

[March Climber]

See, now I kinda get the sentiment, but then again, doesn't this pretty much apply to everything?

I think he is being too kind to the movie industry. There is forgettable slop on both sides of the fence, especially now that streaming services keep pumping out random movies starring people like Dwayne Johnson or Gal Gadot like it’s some sort of assembly line. It all just blends together like a blur.

 

[jason10mm]

Kinda off topic but awesome nonetheless

Damn, gotta watch IG yet again!!

To be fair to TV, stuff like that video mentions probably took MONTHS to figure out and set-up, not something most TV shows could ever hope to do. And on a small screen you couldn't do that kind of framing anyway versus the classic cinema picture.

QT is awesome regardless He had better not really quit.

 

[The Cockatrice]

I think he is being too kind to the movie industry. There is forgettable slop on both sides of the fence, especially now that streaming services keep pumping out random movies starring people like Dwayne Johnson or Gal Gadot like it’s some sort of assembly line. It all just blends together like a blur.

Speaking of the gif, Supernatural is not the best show in the industry, far from it, but boy do I remember and love most of it. How the fuck is Dean and Sam not memorable?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I get his point to an extent but using Yellowstone, which is very clearly a soap opera, as your example, seems a bit off. He should have used some of the best TV has to offer.

 

[Pimpollo818]

 

[Magic Carpet]

Movies have a beginning, middle, end. Tv shows just get cancled.

 

[XXL]

I agree!


And you lost me. MM I thought lacked much real punch, especially compared to what he did with his first netflix mini (was that Bly Manor?) with the daughter reveal.

Anyway, what QT is saying is that while TV can deliver "in the moment", it's structure, the focus on interpersonal drama instead of a specific problem, and the ensemble nature of the cast prevent it from being able to deliver TRUELY memorable narratives with the emotional weight of a film. Even todays heavily serialized shows are just, at best, taking a single film and stretching it out for 8-10 hours. In doing this they over-explain, have too much build-up, the side characters are given too much attention that distracts from the leads, and this is all OKAY, even necessary, but the trade-off is that crystallization of the emotional weight into a 90 minute tour de force that never out stays it's welcome, doesn't repeat itself, and keeps it's novelty.

When you think back on TV, it's almost always the characters you remember, with maybe some specific instances ('no soup for you!'). But a film....that can have an impact that far exceeds any TV show and do it with no wasted space. I just watched "Home Alone" and that film is sublime with how EVERY SCENE is working to enable a later decision or set up an emotional moment. Nothing is fluff, no line is extraneous, it's been stripped of all fat in service of Kevin learning responsibility. So you can take a ride in that film you just can't if there was a TV show because then you'd get 60 minutes of the thieves back story, 60 minutes of the kid across the street, 2 hours of the old man and his estranged kids, Kevin being more of a slob before he matures, probably 3-4 moments when he gets captured and then escapes, over and over, etc.

Midnight Mass has some of the most punchy moments imo. The part with Riley in the community center is one of my favorite moments in any show. It was so well done.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[INC]

I mostly agree, but there's some TV series that just top movies imo

Mr inbetween be one of them

 

[Artoris]

I mostly agree, but there's some TV series that just top movies imo

Mr inbetween be one of them

"Mr inbetween" that was a good one

 

[Fbh]

I mostly agree, though his criticism of TV mostly applies to these long running shows.
A lot of the TV shows that have really stayed with me over the years have been more on the "mini series" or single season format: Fargo S1-2, True Detective S1, Chernobyl, Band of Brothers, ZeroZeroZero, etc. There are few examples of longer shows that still managed to stand out like Breaking Bad, Dark or Barry (though I didn't really like the last season), but they are a rare exception.

Even if you move over to stuff like animation, the short format stuff tends to be more memorable IMO: Edgerunners, Cowboy Bebop, Arcane, Steins Gate, Evangelion, etc.

 

[near]

I agree with him. Most TV shows don't have a memorable pay-off by the end of it all, and that ones that do have so much filler between the meaningful parts. A good example of this for me is Better Call Saul, I love that series, but I genuinely don't remember much of it. Having said that I don't think that makes movies better than tv shows. I love how in-depth story telling can get with shows, and while they're forgettable for the most part, they're really compelling in the moment, and that is a feeling I don't get very often with films. I would take a good tv show over a good movie, but that's just me.

 

[Walter Matthau]

I think he’s mostly right. Good shows can be nice because you spend more time in that universe, but even great series have some filler.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

"Soap opera" is actually a very accurate jab, and brings into clear wording something that bothered me for a while.

Biggest problem with tv is that every series is made to generate more episodes instead of actually trying to tell a story in a long format.

Exactly, which is at the heart of the way soap operas are written: every event / episode is simply there to generate more drama and therefore more episodes. It's like the writers are always lurching forwards to run ahead and can't ever find their footing, because stopping to set the story right is dying for them.

There are exceptions, sure, but the soap opera style of writing has infested and ruined nearly everything. I blame some of its origin on Lost, which was nothing but "generate new mystery boxes every week" trash all along, which is the other half of the drama equation of soap opera writing. Everything either feels like a soap opera relationship drama or like Lost mystery boxes now, the worst of both worlds.

I miss truly episodic TV where each hour stands alone as a complete story and work, eg. something like classic TNG. The "season long story" arc has killed the brains of most writers; all they do is throw a lot of drama and mystery on the table, then hastily and badly finalize it by the end of the season, with more mysteries and pointless drama to pull you back. None of it feels intelligent or designed to any kind of plan.

 

[FunkMiller]

Nope. Not having it.

Neither medium is better or worse than the other. Both have just as many classics and masterpieces as they do utter stinkers.

Tarantino has been smelling his own movie farts for years. He's still a fabulous storyteller, but also can be a pretentious ass sometimes.