Not familiar with that
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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
- Thread starter Mega
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Not familiar with that
So I was just talking to my sisters about PVMs and BVMs, and yeah, their companies have dozens of them that they just throw away.
"Oh great! I'll just go ask for one!"
"You can't, they are goverment property and can't be given to anyone even if useless, it would be considered a crime."
Sigh. Tell me it's not worth it guys, I mean no speakers, who would want that, right?
Thanks, I thought I had to change my cables or power
"Oh great! I'll just go ask for one!"
"You can't, they are goverment property and can't be given to anyone even if useless, it would be considered a crime."
Sigh. Tell me it's not worth it guys, I mean no speakers, who would want that, right?
Thanks, I thought I had to change my cables or power
I feel your pain.
My cousin is a doctor, and they used to have plenty of high-quality Sony CRT monitors in their labs... He told me it's just not possible to go in and grab a few, when they dismantle them. Hospital heads hire companies specifically to chuck them away.
Or sell them on eBay for around a grand each, when someone in those companies has a single clue on what they handle.
RadarScope1
Member
It's a crime alright, just not in the way they meant it.
I got mine from my place of employment. But it's a private organization, not public.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Does anyone have a good youtube video or resource for calibrating PVMs? I got the service manual for my 20m2u from here a while ago and I've been poking around changing the settings to correct the picture but I just plain have no idea what I'm doing. It looks like MLiG promised an episode on calibrating PVMs but I guess they never got around to it.
I think I recall they said they scrapped that plan after realizing the amount of variables that play into calibration.
I watched this video (and the follow on ones) when I was playing around with mine. By no means perfect but it gave me an idea of what does what, kind of a Service Menu 101 class, lol.
Check out Government auctions. Here's a lot with at least one PVM/BVM hidden in the bottom left corner.
sixteen-bit
Member
seems like a risk; i have a feeling that's a monochrome security monitor, lol
i wonder how game boy games would look on it tho, lmao
one on the top right reminds of of the sharp sf-1 with that top bump, but it's not
MåndagSöndag
Banned
sd-crt with rgb is optimal for 240p.
but what about the post 240p but pre hd generation?
the dc, ps2, gc/wii, xbox,(psp) generation?
there is just a range of resolutions and aspect ratios.
480i/480p @ 4:3 and 480i/480p 16:9
but what about the post 240p but pre hd generation?
the dc, ps2, gc/wii, xbox,(psp) generation?
there is just a range of resolutions and aspect ratios.
480i/480p @ 4:3 and 480i/480p 16:9
MåndagSöndag;242560509 said:
If you can get a PVM with 480p support go for it.
If you can't, go for an SD CRT with component.
There are some rare CRTs that can do 480p and are not HD, don't bother finding those, I'm trying to find one but sometimes I wonder if it's worth it.
Don't buy a 16:9 CRT, a handful of games on every system supports 16:9, it's not something to worry about.
MåndagSöndag
Banned
i live in europe. so here its sd crt with rgb as standard. which i have for my 240p consoles.
btw how well do the framemeister/ossc handle od picture standards like 480i/480p @ 4:3 and 480i/480p 16:9
btw how well do the framemeister/ossc handle od picture standards like 480i/480p @ 4:3 and 480i/480p 16:9
MåndagSöndag;242560509 said:
I hear a lot of blanket negativity towards 480p CRTs, but I would think it they have native 15 and 31 khz display modes like the XM29 then it should display 240p, 480i, and 480p as they are "meant be." It's a matter of researching which ones do that though.
As far as the FM and OSSC, they're fine for the most part. The FM has better PQ with 480i and looks almost like native 480p. However in has increased lag and has a longer sync dropout when switching from 240p and 480i (a surprising number of early 3D games do this). It also lacks a VGA input which you need for Dreamcast, but if you get a Behar Bros Dreamcast box, then it won't be a problem.
The OSSC does everything else better, but doesn't look as good with 480i, has no zoom/stretch/offset functions, and you kinda have to take a leap of faith that all the modes it has will work with your TV. Compatability has improved though. It also has VGA, and virtually no lag. The sync dropout is still present, but it can be reduced compared to the FM.
NormalFish
Banned
I mean if CRTs were still regularly made, probably less. But given they'd have to fire up a factory specifically for it, probably more.
So I couldn't really find out much info on this issue and wondering if anyone has experienced this/any help.
Just noticed my PVM seems to flash red (the little white bar at the top of the monitor) once I turn it on. It then stops and appears to work as normal. Anything I should be worried about?
I played a bit of my N64 the past few days; otherwise haven't used it in the past week nor noticed it prior.
Just noticed my PVM seems to flash red (the little white bar at the top of the monitor) once I turn it on. It then stops and appears to work as normal. Anything I should be worried about?
I played a bit of my N64 the past few days; otherwise haven't used it in the past week nor noticed it prior.
RadarScope1
Member
You mean the white rectangle on the casing itself (not the tube/screen)? Huh. I've always wondered what that was for ...
sixteen-bit
Member
I've been experiencing this too and it's alarming me.
What a let down that would be! That box-y shape and those handles though are the tell-tale signs of PVM! Also, that poor person tasked with shipping those...
Laevateinn
Member
That's called a tally light. It's used to let people know that a camera connected to the monitor is recording. I can't find anything with a simple google search that says what it means if it lights up on startup but glancing at the manual doesn't really say that it's used for diagnostics at all. FWIW, my PVM-20M2U's light does not flash on at all when I turn it on unless it's very brief and I glanced away at the moment it lit up.
Thanks for the input. I recently acquired this PVM 14M4U in the past couple months and haven't had issues otherwise. I unplugged it for 30 minutes and it turned on without the flash of light, and then it occurred again once I turned it off.
I haven't experienced the issue before with a 1354Q, so I'm not sure. As you said, can't seem to find much online regarding the issue. Now I'm questioning if the brief flash of light was so slight that I haven't noticed in the past 2 months, lol.
Which model do you have, sixteen-bit?
sixteen-bit
Member
thanks for filling me in. I wonder if it happens since I have it "mirrored" to another PVM via RGB out.
Laevateinn
Member
You guys have your PVMs connected to a stable power source/UPS, right?
RadarScope1
Member
Tally light. Makes sense now. I've never seen mine light up.
My PVMs both do this. It's not inherent on every CRT but the Sony line of broadcast monitors seem to do this.
Yeah, I have everything plugged into nice surge bars. I tried the 1354Q power cord and it appears to have the same result. When I first turn on, nothing; subsequent powering on results in a brief red/orange flash on the tally light.
My best guess thus far is that I somehow triggered the Remote light (also a light beneath the Green power light). Perhaps messing with the User Configuration on the PVM resulted in the two being related. There doesn't seem to be a red/orange flash if the Remote light does not also light up. Hmm.
EDIT: Of course it just happened without the remote light. There goes that theory.
Basic Settings if anything jumps out:
Color System: None
Color Temp: D65
Component Level: 7.5
NTSC Setup Level: 0
ACC: Off
358 Trap: On
I got the monitor from an Electronics shop; perhaps there were settings made related to the Tally light. I've read one can mess around with the remote pins to toggle it on or off.
MåndagSöndag;242560509 said:
Personally, if the game has a 4:3 mode, I run it on my PVM at 480i. If it's locked to 16:9 (like Skyward Sword, Xenoblade, and many other late-era Wii games), then I run it on my HDTV.
Basically, I don't worry too much about the actual resolution, and I let the aspect ratio determine which screen I'm using. If a game has both a 4:3 mode and a 16:9 mode, chances are I'll opt for the 4:3 mode on the PVM at 480i because it will look more natural (like in Super Mario Galaxy). In some rare circumstances, I'll occasionally opt for the 16:9 mode only if it looks spectacular (like in F-Zero GX when I feel like it).
4:3 in 480i on an actual CRT tends to look better to my eyes than 480p when blown up to 1080p. Of course, if you can get a BVM that does 240p, 480i, and 480p natively, then go with that.
Kiddy Dong
Member
MåndagSöndag;242560509 said:
Good question, this is one I'm very intimately familiar with as Gen 6 is my favorite generation of gaming. There are a few options you have when it comes to choosing a CRT, but each have fairly significant drawbacks. It's really a matter of picking which one's disadvantages you dislike the least.
Option 1: Ordinary 480i 15khz CRT.
Pros:
-Extremely common and cheap
-Least amount of hassle to set up
Cons:
-locked to flickery 480i
-Most have limited input options, often maxing out on composite or RF
Option 2: HD CRT from the mid 2000's.
Pros:
-480p and 720p look breathtaking
-Large screen size
Cons:
-Input lag that can be as bad or worse than LCDs of the era (YMMV depending on the CRT)
-240p/480i content is not handled natively and looks poor as a result
-Large size; bad geometry problems are common and heavy weight
Option 3: Multiformat PVM/BVM (such as the PVM-20L5).
Pros:
-240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i are all handled correctly without any other equipment necessary, thus making this option the ultimate all in one choice for retro gaming on a CRT
-No input lag
-Includes all the other high quality features found in a professional monitor
Cons:
-Extremely expensive and in high demand right now. You're either going to have to shell out big bucks for one (~$500+)or win the craigslist lottery.
Option 4: VGA CRT PC monitor with external transcoders.
Pros:
-31khz content or higher is handled excellently and some of the better monitors can rival a PVM's image quality
-No input lag
-Easy size/centering adjustments, no service menu needed here
-Monitors are quite common, in low demand, and cheap
Cons:
-Does not handle 15khz signals whatsoever, which may lead to blind menu navigation for consoles such as PS2 or Wii
-Thus, a separate 15khz monitor is necessary to run any 240p/480i content
-Requires additional hardware to function (VGA to component transcoder + Dreamcast VGA box + component cables)
I decided to pursue Option 4 about a year ago after Mega recommended it in this thread, and I think it was the right choice. I don't mind maintaining a 'fluid' gaming setup where I swap out CRTs, so while it would be nice to have one monitor for everything it's not a must for me. Plus, the hunt for great PC monitors is far more exciting than the relatively dry well of PVM/BVM hunting, at least where I live. There are excellent obscure PC monitors out there that people are giving away for next to nothing.
NormalFish
Banned
i haven't really felt the OSSC is inadequate for 480i content, and it's obviously good for 240p and 480p. Use it with my PS2 all the time to great effect.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Is there a reason you don't consider modern HDTVs? At least ones that have component inputs. I bought a TV earlier this year and the scaling of 480 content is very nice and it does a very good job deinterlacing, all with low lag + native 240p done right. I'm very happy with just about anything I can throw at it from my PS2, Xbox or GC.
As an update, the light seems to appear intermittently and I'll assume things are fine for now.
Saw the issue, albeit somewhat different, mentioned here (which suggests the tally light coming on is normal):
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/view-video-display-hardware-software/77894-sony-pvm-14m4u-question.html
A quick shot of my setup when it's not aggravating me
Saw the issue, albeit somewhat different, mentioned here (which suggests the tally light coming on is normal):
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/view-video-display-hardware-software/77894-sony-pvm-14m4u-question.html
A quick shot of my setup when it's not aggravating me
Shin Johnpv
Member
Anyone who has Sega Master System or Genesis cables from RCA on ebay should watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khl6x0S_bV0
I opened mine up today and even though the ones I bought said NOTHING about boosted sync its got the fucking amp in there, so this weekend I'll have to fix that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khl6x0S_bV0
I opened mine up today and even though the ones I bought said NOTHING about boosted sync its got the fucking amp in there, so this weekend I'll have to fix that.
More things to inspect/fix, amazing! lol, I really like working on things; I just wish I had more time to do it.
Thanks for the awareness. I have one of her Genesis cables. I'll need to check it. Once RCG has Genesis, SNES, and Playstation packapunch cables I think I'm going to just buy all those (currently have all 3 from RCA).
Thanks for the awareness. I have one of her Genesis cables. I'll need to check it. Once RCG has Genesis, SNES, and Playstation packapunch cables I think I'm going to just buy all those (currently have all 3 from RCA).
NormalFish
Banned
afaik these were widely recommended for use with the XRGB mini as recently as last year.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Yeah that was a mistake, the boosted sync in them will slowly kill your framemeister.
You're just full of bad news today, haha. I'll have to check my cable as well, since I definitely bought it from RCA.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, my point is multifaceted:
1. Since these were standard, it's not that unreasonable that your cable has the boost regardless of it not explicitely stating it would, and those who bought a cable for use with the framemeister in the not-too-distant past should check their cables.
2. This wasn't a secret and voultar is active on the boards within which this has been discussed. His "I have no idea why this was done" is bullshit. I'm sick of people looking to him as an unbiased expert when this isn't the first time he's said something needlessly hyperbolic and revisionist.
...I might be interested in buying some of those if you make more...
NormalFish
Banned
have you done scart cables before? Do you just buy scart-scart cables and disect them? Is there a good supply store for console connectors? I wouldn't mind making a PS2 cable with a better audio out cable than my current.
davidwhangchoi
Member
pre-ordered!
Shin Johnpv
Member
I don't know it was an option she used to offer for more money, it would have been nice to know in the listing that now all her cables included that, I would have asked to not have it.
In regards to 2, I can't say I don't know which boards these are, or where it was discussed about this boosted sync being bad type of thing. I disagree with him being hyperbolic though. This is also something Rene brings up in his article too many times when this kind of shit comes to light people attack the person presenting it with "Well my shit has worked for the last 2 years so everything is fine." He presents a data sheet and why it's wrong and a significant problem, same as Rene does in his ram voltage article.
Sorry man, I just don't want to see people's shit die. This is an expensive hobby, and losing a 300 dollar framemeister, or your favorite childhood system to a bad device or cable sucks ass.
it's annoying how none of the HDTVs i've owned let you display signals below HD without cutting off part of the image. just scan and equivalent modes are exclusive to 720p and up. 480p is such a shithole in this regard.
my TV doesn't display 960p good at all so, even with line doubling, it looks bad.
if only there was a way to go back in time and tell them to make the signals 540p instead of 480p...
my TV doesn't display 960p good at all so, even with line doubling, it looks bad.
if only there was a way to go back in time and tell them to make the signals 540p instead of 480p...
Laevateinn
Member
I tried making a cable once and it was a nightmare. Best of luck to those who try.
NormalFish
Banned
Just for clarity's sake, I'm not flaming him for putting out this info. The info is good, and people should definitely react to it. I think voultar is extremely trust worthy when it comes to technical info. I don't, however, like how he presents it and find it really tiresome.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I really don't like voultar's schtick either. Super, super annoying. He's the kind of person that if I worked with him I would avoid speaking to him as much as possible. No question that he knows his stuff, though.
FWIW making your own cables is pretty easy, just kinda time consuming. I had a plan to make all my own cables with console multi-out to 8-pin mini din female connectors. Then I could just connect a well shielded male-to-male straight 8-pin mini din direct to the XRGB, or adapt to SCART. Plan went out the window when a) framemeister died and b) baby got to be a lot more work.
FWIW making your own cables is pretty easy, just kinda time consuming. I had a plan to make all my own cables with console multi-out to 8-pin mini din female connectors. Then I could just connect a well shielded male-to-male straight 8-pin mini din direct to the XRGB, or adapt to SCART. Plan went out the window when a) framemeister died and b) baby got to be a lot more work.
socksfelloff
Member
Agreed. He knows his shit but he has zero people skills. It annoys me that everything that isnt his is a flaming trash fire.
I plan on cutting all my scart cables and converting them to Dsub15. It's so much easier to work with and splitters/switches are a dime a dozen!
NormalFish
Banned
If people are getting fired up about making their own cables again, please do share any helpful resources you find on the subject. I know I'm not the only one that finds making custom SCART cables intimidating and it would be really nice to pool our resources.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Diagrams: http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm
I used luma where possible instead of composite to avoid signal noise/coupling. Otherwise I'd recommend using composite, and stripping with an LM1881 to get csync.
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