• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

(Revo. Controller) -- Tech Talk

G

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Lets start an official thread to talk-about the technology behind the new Nintendo controller. There is much to be said/debated about how to create new games, port old ones, and whether it will sell or not... but here lets figure out exactly how this thing works?

One thing that I can't figure out is what is going on with the pointer. Its been compared to light-gun technology... but as I understand, that technology only "knows" where you are pointing when you press the trigger... at which point the game flashes a barely percievable white and black image to see if you hit within the outlines of the target or not. Anyone whos reportedly played the "target demo" say if there any flashing going on in the game? We can see that there is an infrared-like window on the controller... but no lense. SO how the heck does the Revolution know where you are pointing to on screen?

There is this question and a hundred other curiosities about the tech behind Revolution control... what's the range of motion capure?... how effect does line-of-sight have?... what about range?... does it cuase cancer? ...can you draw with it? etc. So lets open up discussion on the technology angle of the Revolution control.
 
understanding-the-revolution-controller-20050916041026412-000.jpg


I found this on the Internets today, and was just thinking how we needed ANOTHER Revoulution thread.
 
Sry guys, I found the correct one;

nintendo-revolution.jpg


Should I have just made it its own brand new thread? Regardless of the fact that there is a sticky one on the top of the page?
 
I'd like this topic to stay alive, since the main thread is overrun with idiotic trolling, and the technical side of this is very interesting.
Gahiggidy said:
Its been compared to light-gun technology...
Click to expand...
NO. Duh.
We can see that there is an infrared-like window on the controller... but no lense.
Click to expand...
I find this very confusing. It could be a deception on Nintendo's part to try to stymie reverse engineering.
how effect does line-of-sight have?
Click to expand...
Allegedly it doesn't need line-of-sight, which makes that window stranger.
 
I've already asked this in the other Revo thread. I remember a Nintendo patent which was about playing in a 3d environment. The diagram had some dinosaurs just as examples and them appearing on the playing area (TV) and on another dimension, different angle to the playing area.

This could have nothing to do with the Revo controller but if anyone finds it I would like to check it.
 
It's getting so repetitive that it's showing up twice in the same thread.

Anyway, if I remember correctly, one of the NoE interviews said that the remotes work via BlueTooth, so they don't HAVE to be directly aimed at the TV like I feared, they just have to be in sensor range.
 
demon said:
Enough of that horseshit, seriously.

This is the real one-

understanding-the-revolution-controller-20050916041026412-000.jpg
Click to expand...
:lol :lol :lol You really had me this time!!

One thing that I can't figure out is what is going on with the pointer. Its been compared to light-gun technology... but as I understand, that technology only "knows" where you are pointing when you press the trigger... at which point the game flashes a barely percievable white and black image to see if you hit within the outlines of the target or not. Anyone whos reportedly played the "target demo" say if there any flashing going on in the game? We can see that there is an infrared-like window on the controller... but no lense. SO how the heck does the Revolution know where you are pointing to on screen?
Click to expand...
Wtf Gahgiddy? Did you even bother to read the Rev controller sticky? It's a 3D mouse thing, it uses Bluetooth, it needs two sensors that are place near the TV (or something), it works with CRT, LCD, Plasma, Projector, Beamer, whatever. It can sense movement in X, Y, Z space, it can sense tilt, yaw, roll, whatever. It can sense everything. It's also very responsive from what we hear from hands-on by IGN and 1UP.
 
jgkspsx said:
I find this very confusing. It could be a deception on Nintendo's part to try to stymie reverse engineering.
Click to expand...


This could be true. There have been reports that the controller interacts with two sensors that you put on either side of your TV. Though, pictures of said sensors were left out for some reason. :)
 
stolin said:
First.. I called this 4 years ago when Nintendo "heavily invested" in Gyration.
http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/pr-nintendo_uk.htm


Here's the tech description...
http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/technology_uk.htm


Here's a vid of the GyroRemote... With almost all the same features...
http://www.gyration.com/files/demos/GyroRemote_web.wmv
Click to expand...

This is interesting, but if it's using this why does it need the two sensors? It also seems slow from the video, but it's a promo so who knows what its real capabilities are.
 
Ruzbeh said:
:lol :lol :lol You really had me this time!!


Wtf Gahgiddy? Did you even bother to read the Rev controller sticky? It's a 3D mouse thing, it uses Bluetooth, it needs two sensors that are place near the TV (or something), it works with CRT, LCD, Plasma, Projector, Beamer, whatever. It can sense movement in X, Y, Z space, it can sense tilt, yaw, roll, whatever. It can sense everything. It's also very responsive from what we hear from hands-on by IGN and 1UP.
Click to expand...
I know about that. But what's been descrbed is a laser-like pointer IN ADDITION to the position-sensing, tilt-sensing funcationality.

In all, I think we have no-less than three technology implemented here:

1. Relative location == mystery sensors placed on/near tv.
2. Relative position == gyration sensor technology.
3. Exact pointing == ???

#2 is what's being used for the mouse-like controls... but #3 is what's being used for the light-gun stuff. How, though? Infra-red lasers?
 
i've been wondering... so the sensor lets it know where your controller is relative to your tv, but how does it know how big your screen is or if it's wide screen or standard?
 
Kuramu said:
i've been wondering... so the sensor lets it know where your controller is relative to your tv, but how does it know how big your screen is of if it's wide screen or standard?
Click to expand...


You can probably calibrate it like you can DS's touchscreen.
 
what about distance. I remeber Iwata mentioning distance from TV. What happens your gaming room is 2 meters by 2 meters!?
 
stolin said:
First.. I called this 4 years ago when Nintendo "heavily invested" in Gyration.
http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/pr-nintendo_uk.htm


Here's the tech description...
http://www.gyration.com/intl/uk/technology_uk.htm


Here's a vid of the GyroRemote... With almost all the same features...
http://www.gyration.com/files/demos/GyroRemote_web.wmv
Click to expand...

Oh jebus christ.... This is the last thing I wanted to hear.

I said several times in other threads that I can't imagine the Rev Con being better than the $99 Gyration mouse and keyboard combo we bought a year ago and found absoultely horrible in just about everything.

Now you are telling me that it's exact same tech? YEESH!!

Interest in the Rev Controller -1 googleplex.
 
As I said above, there are key differences. I'm thinking it more likely Nintendo invested in Gyration defensively to prevent patent issues. There's probably some crossover, but if Nintendo wanted their tech specifically I doubt they'd still exist.

More from Merrick:
How is movement of the controller detected?

We use Bluetooth technology to communicate between the controller and what we call a 'sensor bar', which has two little sensors on it that are maybe a foot apart. These sensors can be detached from the bar and they can be above the TV or below the TV - it doesn't really matter.

There's really no set-up other than just putting the bar by the TV. There's no calibration for size or type of TV or anything like that.

So presumably the controller will be compatible with all TVs?

It works with any kind of television set - it doesn't matter if it's LCD, plasma, projector or CRT.

And the gamer won't have to sit in the same position every time they're playing a title that uses the motion-sensing function?

Absolutely not - the relative angle in front of the sensor bar is about the same as the viewing angle of the TV. So if you can see the TV, the controller is going to work.
Click to expand...
 
I'm interested if the controller uses tech based on Samba de Amigo controllers. If I remember right, the maracas' box mentioned ultrasonic 3d... would this be accurate enough...

Actually, I think you had to basically stand over the floor mounted sensors for them to read right... so scrap that then!

The controllers may have Bluetooth wireless communications, but I don't think Bluetooth positioning can be used to determine location as accurately as that. Definately not within a few inches of movement.

2 Main methods of BT positioning are measuring signal strength (through C++ and the Host Controller Interface API) and via use of Bluetooth beacons (intercept, time/ angle of arrival). The sensors on the TV could be Bluetooth sensors. Bluetooth has a radial wireless signal, so "beams" out like a sphere. So if you can measure time/strength of signals from each beacon to the BT device (remote control), you can overlap the spheres and get approx position. The more beacons, the more accurate you can measure it.

But I don't know how two or three Bluetooth sensors on top of the TV could measure distance/depth/tilt/rotation accurately in a 3d space.

So I think there's something else to it. And I don't know!

*Nothing to see here, move on... !*
 
+Aliken+ said:
what about distance. I remeber Iwata mentioning distance from TV. What happens your gaming room is 2 meters by 2 meters!?
Click to expand...
Good question. I assume the distance is set to be relative to where ou are sitting. My theory is that the "home" button is used to tell the console that you are now sitting in our spot. So when you change seats and press "home" the console resets the default distance to be right where you are sitting. I dunno... we really are gonna need to see some real world demonstrations to understand this. That promo video likely has some gross exagerations in how this is played.
 
In addition of the two sensors in the "sensor bar", there are probably 2 more inside the console. You need at least four sensors to pinpoint the exact location of the controller in 3D space using the simple method that I'm thinking right now.
 
Does BlueTooth have a better "ping-time" than Wi-Fi?? I know you can use WiFi to do a kind of Local-Positioning-Sytem to determin which street-corner you are located within a city... but on the micro-scale is BlueTooth just better at positioning?
 
SpoonyBard said:
In addition of the two sensors in the "sensor bar", there are probably 2 more inside the console. You need at least four sensors to pinpoint the exact location of the controller in 3D space using the simple method that I'm thinking right now.
Click to expand...
Cue I don't like Revoltion b/c it can't fit neatly in my electrnics cabinent whinning. :p

But, seriously. What if the "sensor-bar" is only being used to detect a flat plain... and up+down is being extrapolated by "lift-n-drop" gravity sensors in the controller?

There stil is that mysterious front-flap on the unit though...
 
I doubt the rumbling is that intense to give you actual feedback. The technology, to me, is amazing. I'm so excited about the Revolution.
 
SpoonyBard said:
In addition of the two sensors in the "sensor bar", there are probably 2 more inside the console. You need at least four sensors to pinpoint the exact location of the controller in 3D space using the simple method that I'm thinking right now.
Click to expand...

If you're thinking the revolution is a vertical beacon while the sensor bar is horizontal, that means the console *has* to be vertical. That could be a bit awkward.
 
I assumed it basically triangulated your position. Hence the need for the sensor bar with two sensors within it. The console would also have one, and the remote could send a signal from each tip, or just from one point, and couple that with a tilt sensor. All that put together should be able to calculate the controls exact position in space (pretty much). Calibrate it a tiny bit for the TV size and position in space, and you are good.
 
@Gahiggidy

Position sensing using Bluetooth and Wi-Fi is essentially exactly the same - both wireless comms.

The main difference is transfer speeds and range. Wi-fi ihas a much greater range and transfer speed, but is much too "heavy" and overkill for this kind of indoor app. Plus battery wouldn't hack it - hence Bluetooth is integrated into phones/ simple cable replacement.

Ping will be fine, speed OK once network is set up. However setting up a network initially can take a while.

--------

This sensor bar - a foot long, two detachable little sensors. So what's in the middle of this foot long bar??
 
Gahiggidy said:
Good question. I assume the distance is set to be relative to where ou are sitting. My theory is that the "home" button is used to tell the console that you are now sitting in our spot. So when you change seats and press "home" the console resets the default distance to be right where you are sitting. I dunno... we really are gonna need to see some real world demonstrations to understand this. That promo video likely has some gross exagerations in how this is played.
Click to expand...

forgot about that "Home" thing, make sense.
 
so what type of tracking is this doing to find the location of the remote in 3d spcae? is it radio or infra-red or somehting else?
 
my question is how well rumble will work with all these functions. Could rumble throw off precision of aiming/twisting/pointing?
Click to expand...

Hopefully they have good scale of the amount of rumbling. For instance in a normal game you wouldn't actually like having much rumble on to disturb the stableness but it could really be cool to have a strang rumble in games realistic FPS or other shooting games. It could actually mimic the recoil, getting hit (losing balance) etc. etc.
 
Im guessing the rumble will be like Wario Ware twisted or fishing controllers, just enough to give you feedback that what youre doing is working.
 
maharg said:
If you're thinking the revolution is a vertical beacon while the sensor bar is horizontal, that means the console *has* to be vertical. That could be a bit awkward.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to, but it would add precision. What I'm thinking is kind of a mini GPS system. The controllers sends a signal and the sensors measure the time it takes from signal to travel from the controller to the sensor. This timing information is then used to calculate the exact position of the controller.

There's a good explanation of how GPS works on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps
 
first of all excuse me if this has already been discussed here or in any of the other Rev thread. one of my main question is, how fast can you move the pointer/remote before the sensors / gyroscopes can no longer keep up with your movements, and be processed by the Revolution hardware and translated on-screen?
 
I hardly think that Rev's CPU(s?) is processing any of the signal more than it should have done with a control. This should be done by the gyro-module itself. Would be really weird otherwise.
 
Shogmaster said:
Oh jebus christ.... This is the last thing I wanted to hear.

I said several times in other threads that I can't imagine the Rev Con being better than the $99 Gyration mouse and keyboard combo we bought a year ago and found absoultely horrible in just about everything.

Now you are telling me that it's exact same tech? YEESH!!

Interest in the Rev Controller -1 googleplex.
Click to expand...

Wow, this might be the first time I have agreed with Shog. We have one of these at the office and it was used once and now collects dust in the server room. Incredibly annoying to use, I hope the nintendo version uses better tech otherwise you will be chunking it at the wall.
 
SpoonyBard said:
It doesn't have to, but it would add precision. What I'm thinking is kind of a mini GPS system. The controllers sends a signal and the sensors measure the time it takes from signal to travel from the controller to the sensor. This timing information is then used to calculate the exact position of the controller.

There's a good explanation of how GPS works on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps
Click to expand...
Location shouldn't matter if it's RF/BT. You zero it out at your location, and then the system recalibrates so it can track location based on that starting point. Once you're in the bounding box for the sensor range, I can't see it mattering. The only difference would be if you needed to use the full range, in which case you'd want to start off centered. PEACE.
 
xexex said:
first of all excuse me if this has already been discussed here or in any of the other Rev thread. one of my main question is, how fast can you move the pointer/remote before the sensors / gyroscopes can no longer keep up with your movements, and be processed by the Revolution hardware and translated on-screen?
Click to expand...
BT transmits at 2.4GHz IIRC. So, as long as your receiver can keep up with a fraction of that, I'd assume you can move your hand as quick as you want. I'd assume it's up to the game being able to read controller inputs more than anything. PEACE.
 
@xexex

That's really impossible to say.. depends on so many things (system specs, etc)

But main problem in a wireless comms is the speed of the wireless link. It's almost certainly going to be slower for your position to be worked out plus control data (button presses etc) to be sent across than the time needed by the Rev console to process it.

Therefore, due to the speed of wireless connection, there will always be some lag and the Rev will not know what exactly you will be doing at all times. The lag will depend on a number of factors, and there's no way of guessing at this point the speed of wireless comms (between sensors, Rev, and controller) and processing grunt on the Rev side.

Probably game designers will need to take this lag into account and compensate. For example, if starting to turn left keep going that way until hear overwise. Similar to how multiplayer network games work - if the network lags or packets are lost from other player's comp, then calculate the opposition as moving the same way (and then update accurately when next data packets arereceived.)
 
I'm assuming if the tech is as shitty as shog suggest that we would have heard about it by now. I mean you think Nintendo would bank their console future on something that doesnt work?
 
Gek54 said:
Wow, this might be the first time I have agreed with Shog. We have one of these at the office and it was used once and now collects dust in the server room. Incredibly annoying to use, I hope the nintendo version uses better tech otherwise you will be chunking it at the wall.
Click to expand...

It's all about the advancement of the tech and implementation. Atari had analogue control, look what happened with that....Nintendo took it to task and see where we are now.
 
This was posted from firefly in the 3DRealms forums. And from someone that has tried the controller.

Someone posted this in the Shack thread:

" "How does it compare to a mouse?"

From what I experienced, it seemed to be more precise than a mouse, but it's also much faster because it requires only a much smaller movement of the hand to achieve the desired effect. You just instantly point the controller at any part of the screen and bam!, that's where you're looking.

There is no lag.

There is no error.

It took a while to get used to the idea of how little effort is required to play a game with this controller. I kept wanting to lean forward and move the controller closer to the screen, and it took some practice to just sit back and just calmly move my hand ever so slightly.

At one point, someone said, "If you were to play a game with this against someone using a mouse, they'd have no chance against you." I had to admit it was true.

I've been using a mouse and keyboard for gaming for almost as long as I've been a gamer. I've logged over 80 hours so far in Battlefield 2 and I have a level 60 World of WarCraft character. If somebody had tried to tell me before now that a better controller would come along, I would have laughed at them.

But it only took me 5 minutes with the Revolution controller to realize that I don't need to use a mouse ever again.

Let's take a first-person shooter as an example. With a flick of the wrist, you can completely change your aim point from one corner of the screen to the other. Changing your aim point that way would require you to move a mouse all the way across a gamepad and could potentially take up to several seconds of pushing on a thumbstick with a standard console game controller.

Add to that the fact that the controller can correctly interpret roll (rotation of the controller clockwise and counterclockwise) and movement toward the screen or away from it, and you start to get an idea of the universe of new gameplay possibilities that Revolution games will be able to explore.

\from an attendee "
Click to expand...


http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthrea...Board=othergames&Number=949214&page=0&fpart=2

Sounds fantastic
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Virtua Fighter 5 REVO: World Stage
2 3
121
4K
DeafTourette replied
Beyond the Screen: Behind the Tech: Mimic Controller | Sony Official
7
1K
Holammer replied
Controller cleaner.
2
53
2K
analog_future replied
Need some vintage tech help
Drama Retro 
23
396
TintoConCasera replied
Tech art frames for nerds
2
215
Rentahamster replied
Top Bottom