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Do you think you're getting points every time you belittle people for being too hard on Nazis?

At what point did I say they were being "too hard" on Nazis? I just want to know who's actually willing to back up their words with actions. It doesn't seem likely, but maybe punching some dudes at a protest is going to topple this movement. That doesn't mean too much if nobody is actually willing to do it, though.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Which is in no way normal. Which caused outrage from all sides except the White House. The lack of outrage from the White House is also not normal, and we should rage against that. We should not normalize violence.

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

 

[adversesolutions]

Here's one way to shut them down: https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/896820888930332672

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Hmmmm..Do I wanna take the drive? 🤔

 

[Not]

"This man has the right to freely speak his opinion, so would everyone who disagrees with him kindly remain silent."

Gonna answer that with a big fat "nope"

Bring out the sound systems

 

[The Kree]

I presume you aren't more than a few hours from Gainesville. Will you be there with fists ready to pummel?

The Nazis have the power to prevent violence by going away and not subscribing to a genocidal ideology. I don't suppose you've tried suggesting this to any of them though.

 

[watershed]

Protest the event. Silence, ignoring them. is not the answer. Silence is complicity and complacency and ignores the fact that these ideas are already cemented into American society. You don't defeat ideology by hoping it will go away.

 

[Nepenthe]

Here's one way to shut them down: https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/896820888930332672

If there's one silver lining to the weaksauce police presence we've seen, it's that it gives white people against this shit freer reign to get physical with these fuckbois.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Still don't really get why universities need to provide a platform for hate speech. That shit would be shut down so quick over here in Europe.

Here's one way to shut them down: https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/896820888930332672

Googled the guy and he is live now on Twitter whining about how violence is winning over speech or some nonsense. When they are back in their safe bedroom they can suddenly talk big again.

 

[Kusagari]

At what point did I say they were being "too hard" on Nazis? I just want to know who's actually willing to back up their words with actions. It doesn't seem likely, but maybe punching some dudes at a protest is going to topple this movement. That doesn't mean too much if nobody is actually willing to do it, though.

I don't know why you're acting like nobodies ever done it before. Spencer is more infamous for constantly getting punched than anything else at this point.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Florida, you say?

Someone tell N. Korea we got a proposition for them.

 

[parrotbeak]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

This is a great post.

 

[cubicle47b]

Googled the guy and he is live now on Twitter whining about how violence is winning over speech or some nonsense. When they are back in their safe bedroom they can suddenly talk big again.

Right. Getting punched isn't going to stop them from talking. That's only going to happen if they're dead or in jail.

 

[nynt9]

Yeah, as this happens people will still go to bat for the rights of these people to organize and spread their hate. We couldn't possibly work to nip this at the bud like some other countries!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

+1. Summed up my thoughts on the matter better than I ever could have.

 

[Lowmelody]

At what point did I say they were being "too hard" on Nazis? I just want to know who's actually willing to back up their words with actions. I doesn't seem likely, but maybe punching some dudes at a protest is going to topple this movement. That doesn't mean too much if nobody is actually willing to do it, though.

What you're doing is no different than someone telling someone they can't care about labor laws because they own an iphone. It's not some deep or clever perspective that people discussing ideals and how to achieve them are too stupid to grasp. You're only stroking your own ego and giving cover to actual Nazis. Many folk just aren't in a position to put their ideals to action but that doesn't mean they wont nor does it make their feelings on the matter less valid.

It's even worse when preachy above it alls condemn people who DO take the fight to Nazis while simultaneously pulling this 'oh right tough guys like who will take the first swing huh thats what i thought Im so clever' when people are discussing what should be done about this Nazi resurgence. People just happen to accidentally defend Nazis both ways, literally and hypothetically.

 

[Telosfortelos]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

I think you make some fine points about not normalizing their strain of hate. And I quite enjoyed the video of Jason Kessler getting chased away. I'm terrified that the left is going to kill someone, however, and that would be disastrous for progressive interests.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

Holy shit someone gets it! Thank you.

 

[SoCoRoBo]

"Normalizing political violence"

Yeah, right.

Meanwhile, here you are trying to normalize Nazism and white supremacy as simply another political stance worthy of debate and entitled to freedom of speech. There are some things that simply must be shut down and not recognized. This is one of them.

There was nothing in my post trying to avocate that. It's impossible to read that into it. It was literally the point of my post that the unwillingness to have any kind of serious debate about the best way to address these abhorrent ideologies is ultimately going to backfire because there's no coherent position that you can draw together from all of this vague 'yeah punch Nazis' masturbation. The fact that you misread something so clearly is part of the problem.

Please, explain to me in what manner you're going to set up a legislative scheme that will reliably determine what is acceptable and what is unacceptable speech on all of these issues? What's your criteria for speech by which it makes someone an acceptable target to be punched in the street? Can you actually do that in any principled way?

Congratulations on proving my point that the vast majority of discussion on this issue is dumb, flippant shitposting, I guess?

 

[opoth]

Violence worked in the '40's because we carpet bombed their cities, killed them on the battlefield, hunted down and tried and hung them after the war, and split up their country. A few skirmishes at a rally isn't going to cut it.

Think of dealing with this at the rally level as removing a polyp vs fighting stage 4 cancer. If you remove the polyps, you may avoid having to fight cancer later.

 

[Oersted]

I think you make some fine points about not normalizing racism. And I quite enjoyed the video of Jason Kessler getting chased away. I'm terrified that the left is going to kill someone, however, and that would be disastrous for progressive interests.

The right is murdering. And will continue to do so.

 

[Not]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

Nice. Wow.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think you make some fine points about not normalizing racism. And I quite enjoyed the video of Jason Kessler getting chased away. I'm terrified that the left is going to kill someone, however, and that would be disastrous for progressive interests.

You know what's disastrous for progressive interests? Trump, the Republicans, the alt-right, the white supremacists, the neo-Nazis, and everyone else in between that seem to be emboldened in 2017 to commit acts of hatred against anyone they don't view as real Americans. We are already quite in the shit, as it were.

 

[BlackJace]

Are colleges legally incapable of just saying "No" to these dipshits or something?

Freeze peach bruh

 

[Hellraizah]

Show these fucks their own blood and make it real for them. These doughy Nazi bitches think this is a game. When Nazis target minorities with threats you punch them, when they target minorities with violence, you kill them. No exceptions.

Yeah, go and kill one of them. They will probably go and hide after that.

Just don't be surprised after that when there are grenades tossed in the middle of BLM manifestations.

If you think violence is a justifiable way to protest, you'll always find out that your ennemies can strike back with more force and you end up with a civil war.

What a great idea.

 

[Commander Jameson]

Does "free speech" mean that people have to provide places to spout their idocy?

 

[Crossing Eden]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

Thank you!!

There was nothing in my post trying to avocate that. It's impossible to read that into it. It was literally the point of my post that the unwillingness to have any kind of serious debate about the best way to address these abhorrent ideologies is ultimately going to backfire because there's no coherent position that you can draw together from all of this vague 'yeah punch Nazis' masturbation. The fact that you misread something so clearly is part of the problem.

You were saying we shouldn't normalize violence against Nazis.

Please, explain to me in what manner you're going to set up a legislative scheme that will reliably determine what is acceptable and what is unacceptable speech on all of these issues? What's your criteria for speech by which it makes someone an acceptable target to be punched in the street? Can you actually do that in any principled way?

YEP!

 

[Kthulhu]

Florida continues to Florida. Hopefully the dudes inbox gets nuked by pissed off students.

 

[cubicle47b]

Think of dealing with this at the rally level as removing a polyp vs fighting stage 4 cancer. If you remove the polyps, you may avoid having to fight cancer later.

Right, if you remove the polyps. We haven't actually done that. The only thing likely to shut down Richard Spencer or Jason Kessler is to make them hated by their own base like Milo after his pedophilia comments.

 

[Lightning_Roller]

It isn't normalising violence.

These people are explicitly advocating for industrial-scale genocide. They believe insane reality-bending self-contradicting conspiracy theories. They are killing people in broad daylight. They're walking around with fucking AR-15s and swastika armbands.

They adhere to an ideology that dictates you only argue with liberals in bad faith to exhaust and frustrate them, you categorically reject any notions of rational debate and instead pay lip service to democratic norms until you are numerous enough to take over the government and start killing people. You replace all notions of process or rule of law with the adulation of pure brute power.

If you look at these people and think "oh well hmm I guess we need to defeat them with their own logic in the court of public opinion and then they'll go away," then you are the person normalising violence.

Violence is the entire point of their philosophy. The only actual praxis for fascists is violence or the credible threat of violence.

If these people are not aggressively curbed by the state - and in America they won't be - then the rest of the populace has to understand that they are already in a war and should take steps to defend themselves.

I think violence is an extremely serious matter and should only be undertaken in life threatening circumstances. I'm not 'normalising' it. Watching fascism sweep across the government and sections of the public, and thinking that it can be defeated with op-eds and hashtags, though? That is normalising violence. That's refusing to take it seriously.

This will be the only time I use this gif but:

 

[Lowmelody]

Yeah, go and kill one of them. They will probably go and hide after that.

Just don't be surprised after that when there are grenades tossed in the middle of BLM manifestations.

If you think violence is a justifiable way to protest, you'll always find out that your ennemies can strike back with more force and you end up with a civil war.

What a great idea.

So when they violently target minorities and our fascist President and Attorney General implicitly endorses it we should do what?

 

[Toxi]

I think you make some fine points about not normalizing their strain of hate. And I quite enjoyed the video of Jason Kessler getting chased away. I'm terrified that the left is going to kill someone, however, and that would be disastrous for progressive interests.

A Nazi just ran a car into a crowd and I don't see any conservatives running out to the left.

 

[ModBot]

Spencer and his fellow Nazis are trying this sort of thing basically every week now. Barring some actual news about this UF event, let's try to keep things a little bit consolidated, since this discussion is already happening in the other Charlottesville-related threads.