Right Let's Try This Again: PS3 Hypervisor Hacked

thuway said:
English plz?

Well if you look at this description from IBM:

The architecture's main strength is its ability to allow an application to protect itself using the hardware security features instead of the conventional method of solely relying on the operating system or other supervisory software for protection. Therefore, if the operating system is compromised by an attack, the hardware security features can still protect the application and its valuable data. As an analogy, consider the protection the supervisory software provides as the castle's moat and the Cell BE security hardware features as the locked safe inside the castle.

So under this analogy geohot is past the the moat, but not inside the castle yet. He's compromised the OS, but he's not fully compromised the system in order to be able to run code on it.

I think the post was slightly premature in announcing a hypervisor-level compromise as a 'hack' of the system. That is true in most systems, but here things are designed so that it'll supposedly remain secure even with a compromised hypervisor.
 
ymmv said:
In my opinion the bad outweighs the good.

I've enjoyed the fruits of the hacking scenes numerous times. I softmodded my PS2 and can now run my games from HD with the added benefit of finally being able to play US games that never made it to European shores. I've modded my PSP so I can play games from memory stick instead of UMD. I've enjoyed dabbling with all kinds of Wii mods and can now play games from a USB HD. It's absolutely fun to do tech stuff like that, but it was also nice to have at least one console on the market that wasn't hacked yet.

No matter how cool some homebrew can be (XBMC is the best example of this, I bought and modded an Xbox just for XBMC), the majority of people profiting from hacked consoles will ultimately be pirates, not people looking for legitimate uses of such hacks like region free gaming or emulation. I'd rather have none of the good things that homebew brings than have piracy. There's nothing I dislike more than cheapskates enjoying every game on the market for free while I pour hundreds of euros into my hobby each year buying original games and yet have to pick and choose which games I'll buy and play.

I hope Sony will be able to fix the loophole in their current protection scheme with a firmware update. I'm not gonna try any of these hacks just like I did with the 360.

I'm confused. So modding your PS2, PSP, Wii and Xbox was fantastic but the prospect of a hacked PS3 is horrible?
 
Choke on the Magic said:
Does this mean that a hacked Ps3 slim could potentially get there Ps2 games to play on it if someone releases a decent emulator?

First you would need a secure hack, that doesn't exist. Assuming you can get full access, then you would need to write an emulator for PS3, which it´s an extremely hard task for itself, especially to achieve anything playable.

Short answer: Don't hold your breath.
 
Acosta said:
First you would need a secure hack, that doesn't exist. Assuming you can get full access, then you would need to write an emulator for PS3, which it´s an extremely hard task for itself, especially to achieve anything playable.

Short answer: Don't hold your breath.


Bummer. I just better hope my 60gb never dies.
 
MasterTeacher said:
You honestly believe he started for scratch and 5 weeks later he "hacked" the system?:lol


He ignored the hypervisor in 5 weeks. No one did it before or invested any good time on it apart from wannabe hackers/pirates (like ps3news lolz).

Enlighten us then, what has he do? Work on it for 10 years?
 
Dragona Akehi said:
Anyone accusing people of piracy, or saying that this hack is just for piracy is going to get a three month ban.

<3 hmm I think i'm in love... :D

On topic: I'm really interested in the region free stuff and using linux with gpu access (compiz :P )... Hdd playing would be cool too... My old ps1/ps2 CDs can't take care of themselves alone... :/
 
I'll check back in when something concrete (XBMC or something) is released for it and the homebrew isn't defeated with every single firmware update.
 
itxaka said:
He ignored the hypervisor in 5 weeks. No one did it before or invested any good time on it apart from wannabe hackers/pirates (like ps3news lolz).

Enlighten us then, what has he do? Work on it for 10 years?


How do you know no one else invested any good time trying to hack the PS3? You think he is the first one?
 
Although most people I know in real life will exclusively use this for piracy, no matter what you'll end up having to do to the console to make it work, I'm interested in how Rock Band or Guitar Hero hacked DLC ends up. Assuming it gets that far.
 
This generation of gaming of console is sorely lacking good media center options. The built-in functionality of the 360 and PS3 are both infuriatingly hamstrung. Bring on 1080p playback in XBMC and Boxee!
 
Acosta said:
Dragona, I don't get it very well your problem with worldwide Blu-Ray, my PS3 reads them without problems, what is your model?

A US\Japanese PS3 will not play European Blu-Ray movies that are region locked and vice-versa for European PS3's and US\Japanese that are region locked.

Blu-Rays that are region free will play on either system just fine.
 
kamorra said:
I'm confused. So modding your PS2, PSP, Wii and Xbox was fantastic but the prospect of a hacked PS3 is horrible?

As I said: "I'd rather have none of the good things that homebrew brings than have piracy. There's nothing I dislike more than cheapskates enjoying every game on the market for free while I pour hundreds of euros into my hobby each year buying original games and yet have to pick and choose which games I'll buy and play."

Personally I don't see the point of homebrew on a PS3. You can already play regionfree games on the PS3, you can already play dozens of emulators on the PC and just about every other (handheld) console. The only real benefit is region free Blu-Ray/DVD movies but that's not enough for me. Hacking the Wii and PSP was more or less risk free, but I'm not going to risk my online connectivity.I bet Sony will have learned a lot from Microsoft's fight against modded 360s on Xbox Live thru regular ban waves. This could happen on PSN as well if this first hack leads to a very active modding scene on the PS3.
 
linkboy said:
A US\Japanese PS3 will not play European Blu-Ray movies that are region locked and vice-versa for European PS3's and US\Japanese that are region locked.

Blu-Rays that are region free will play on either system just fine.

No, everyone knows that, what she is saying is:

Well it'd be nice to be able to play my original, pristine, already region free Bluray Discs

And region free Bluray works in my japanese PS3, so I was wondering what the problem is.
 
linkboy said:
A US\Japanese PS3 will not play European Blu-Ray movies that are region locked and vice-versa for European PS3's and US\Japanese that are region locked.

Blu-Rays that are region free will play on either system just fine.
I agree, but Dragona's post seems to imply that there's a problem with region-free BR...

By the way, Dragona, you were talking about region-free PSOne/PS2, would you take the risk of hacking a BC PS3? I'm so scared having a problem with mine that I don't even upgrade anymore...
 
Acosta said:
No, everyone knows that, what she is saying is:



And region free Bluray works in my Japanese PS3, so I was wondering what the problem is.


Since it has to be re-explained every thread:

The PS3 in firmwares 2.60 and under, would play all region free blurays, if there was any 576p/i 50hz content on the disc, it would simply skip ahead to the next available HD stream. After 2.70 (which was released in APRIL 2009), inserting PREVIOUSLY PERFECTLY PLAYABLE BLURAYS would result in a 800299x error saying the video could not be played. Which is fucking ridiculous. After 3.0, the discs no longer display an error but just hang in a black screen.

It's utterly atrocious and every other bluray player on the market (including Sony's OWN standalone players) either convert the 50hz content or skip the next stream. They don't render your bluray library fucking useless.

The best part? A US/NTSC PS3 is perfectly capable of 50 <-> 60hz or PAL <-> NTSC conversion. Take a PAL DVD, rip a .VOB file from it and stick it on a USB memory card and it will display (and I mean actually properly convert) it into a 60hz NTSC signal.

The PS3 could easily be the best of all media set top boxes, but apparently my problem isn't 'important enough' to fix. This is especially frustrating, because I specifically bought a PS3 so that I would have a unit that would play almost all of my media.

From another thread :)
 
Psychotext said:
I just wanted to post this to answer the "PS3 is the perfect media player, no need for XMBC" argument.

Here's XBMC:

29wpw5k.jpg

6p2tu8.jpg

jpkmld.jpg



Here's PS3 Media Server (my own screen, looking at a DVD iso):

30ws7ba.jpg

that looks very pretty... when i got my HTPC, I tried XMBC and found it much easier to just use Media Player ;-).


Dragonas issue with PS3 BD Player was due to bug introduced with one of the newer firmwares that did not let you play japanese BD on american PS3, even when BDs are region free (most of them are). It is an bug, not an "feature".
 
Dragona Akehi said:
This, along with region free PS2 and PSOne gaming, is mainly what I'm after. I'm even hopeing that they might manage to get it going so that you can install PS2 or PSOne games (from your disc) onto an HDD... I'd be able to retire my PS2 HDLoader then!

You probably already know but to my knowledge that is already possible well loading PS2 Games from a USB HDD on the PS3 is anyway.

You can use the SwapMagic disc to load a PS2 Homebrew app on the PS3 that will work just like HDLoader. I've never tried it but compatibility is supposed to be pretty decent but not on par with HDLoader because it's loading through USB.
 
ymmv said:
As I said: "I'd rather have none of the good things that homebrew brings than have piracy. There's nothing I dislike more than cheapskates enjoying every game on the market for free while I pour hundreds of euros into my hobby each year buying original games and yet have to pick and choose which games I'll buy and play."

Personally I don't see the point of homebrew on a PS3. You can already play regionfree games on the PS3, you can already play dozens of emulators on the PC and just about every other (handheld) console. The only real benefit is region free Blu-Ray/DVD movies but that's not enough for me. Hacking the Wii and PSP was more or less risk free, but I'm not going to risk my online connectivity.I bet Sony will have learned a lot from Microsoft's fight against modded 360s on Xbox Live thru regular ban waves. This could happen on PSN as well if this first hack leads to a very active modding scene on the PS3.

Well ok. Just want to point out that the PSP situation is or was the same. You could already play regionfree games on the PSP and you could already play dozens of emulators on the PC and just about every other (handheld) console. Still you modded it. Maybe you liked the install to MS option, maybe the PS3 will get a similar solution.
 
the problem with xmbc is not it's looks, but that its looks are dependent on your media having assets to provide those looks, and without the high -res art it looks and feels awful and doesn't provide meaningful navigation or information underneath it's UI. ps3media streamer (which works fine for me wireless, though my region free-blu rays also play fine...) gives me all the information i need to play the movie or show i want to play.

the greater problem of xmbc's interface is that it only gives you information you know from buying/renting the movie or from when you grabbed it off of itunes or whatever, which is the major problem of most bad UI design.
 
Until the keys are found, there's no way to run unsigned code on the system. When that happens then the PS3 will have been hacked. Until then, the PS3 still remains unhacked.
 
swoon said:
the problem with xmbc is not it's looks, but that its looks are dependent on your media having assets to provide those looks, and without the high -res art it looks and feels awful and doesn't provide meaningful navigation or information underneath it's UI. ps3media streamer (which works fine for me wireless, though my region free-blu rays also play fine...) gives me all the information i need to play the movie or show i want to play.

the greater problem of xmbc's interface is that it only gives you information you know from buying/renting the movie or from when you grabbed it off of itunes or whatever, which is the major problem of most bad UI design.

XBMC automatically grabs all that information from IMDB and other sources
 
right. but the assets from imdb and amazon are not the high res backing shots in those screenshots, but just the facts and box shot. which you should know, and aren't needed to browse movies quickly.
 
Even with full hypervisor access, the PS3 is a tough beast to code for. There's only a single a single general purpose core (PPC) that can run 'regular' code at full speed with branch prediction and out of order execution. The SPEs are more like the 'cores' on the latest GPUs that are capable of GPGPU - they are much more limited in their capabilties than the PPC core, they require the workload to be spread amongst them in order to really be effective. All of this is old news, of course, but its worth mentioning that these are obstacles standing in the way of just taking all the current linux code and running it at full speed on the PS3 even with full Hypervisor access. A lot of PS3 specific changes will need to be made, if not full rewrites of software to make it viable on the PS3.
 
region free ps2? that's already exclusive to the 60gb models already, i'm sure enabling that is really useless since majority doesnt have ps2 support
(ie, look at the psp 1000, ir support on homebrew is dead)
and ps2 emulator? just take a look at the windows one
also, you cant just port that one, different architecture
i think it's pretty reasonable to say even if you got homebrew running, there wont a ps2 emulator

i think the most prosperous thing would be a good mediacenter/program
support for more formats are always welcome since sony doesnt care for nonstandard/mainstream formats
 
Lethal Jelly said:
XBMC automatically grabs all that information from IMDB and other sources
Beaten... yes, there are indeed numerous places you can pull the file info from. I have mine set to pull from three different sources automatically on load.

Whilst they may not be HD... they look a damn sight better than a picture of a disc, no info whatsoever and no ability to load DVD menus.
 
Truespeed said:
Until the keys are found, there's no way to run unsigned code on the system. When that happens then the PS3 will have been hacked. Until then, the PS3 still remains unhacked.

Exactly. The more I think about the situation, I'd say Geohot made the statement of "I've hacked the PS3" a bit too early.
 
mhayze said:
Even with full hypervisor access, the PS3 is a tough beast to code for. There's only a single a single general purpose core (PPC) that can run 'regular' code at full speed with branch prediction and out of order execution. The SPEs are more like the 'cores' on the latest GPUs that are capable of GPGPU - they are much more limited in their capabilties than the PPC core, they require the workload to be spread amongst them in order to really be effective. All of this is old news, of course, but its worth mentioning that these are obstacles standing in the way of just taking all the current linux code and running it at full speed on the PS3 even with full Hypervisor access. A lot of PS3 specific changes will need to be made, if not full rewrites of software to make it viable on the PS3.

This is all true, and while Linux engagement wasn't particularly encouraging, necessarily, perhaps access to Cell+GPU will motivate greater engagement than Cell alone.

But to backtrack for a second 'even with full hypervisor access', you still can't run custom code. There's a couple more key steps to go before people can even start worrying about wrapping their heads around Cell :)
 
Dragona Akehi said:
This, along with region free PS2 and PSOne gaming, is mainly what I'm after. I'm even hopeing that they might manage to get it going so that you can install PS2 or PSOne games (from your disc) onto an HDD... I'd be able to retire my PS2 HDLoader then!

Being able to install PS2 games sounds rad! Everyone who has one of those HDLoaders says that it's the way to play PS2 games. How much does it affect load times? Does it do anything else?
Oh, and would it be possible to get the PS3 to output PS2 games in HD like an emulator can? I know that it already upscales, but I want to know if it can get something to look as good as the screenshots in the PS2 emulation thread. Or is it not powerful enough?
 
Like I stated in the other thread, this would be the end of locked save files. I could freely move my Fat Princess save file where ever I want (I've had to restart it 3 times already)

ymmv said:
You can already play regionfree games on the PS3

Not PS1 and PS2 out of region games you can't.
 
swoon said:
right. but the assets from imdb and amazon are not the high res backing shots in those screenshots, but just the facts and box shot. which you should know, and aren't needed to browse movies quickly.

It grabs the high res backing shots too (which it refers to as "fan art"), automatically, from public websites. That is a fair "out of the box" representation of Aeon. Do your homework before shitting up the thread.
 
OldJadedGamer said:
Not PS1 and PS2 out of region games you can't.


Someone mentioned something about a swapmagic exploit for some japanese games on 60gb PS3s in the other thread (it's the first I've heard of it.) Not sure if they're referring to that.
 
Some additional information on the security implemented in the Cell BE.

SPE ISOLATION MODE

At the heart of CBE’s security architecture is the ability to isolate an SPE from the rest of the system. This is accomplished by one, locking up the isolated SPE’s LS for its own use only, and two, disabling all external execution path control of the SPE core. Specifically, all LS read and write requests originating from units on the EIB such as the PPE, other SPEs, and the I/O do not have any effect on the locked-up region of the LS. There is a small area of the LS left open to both the external agents and the SPE for communication purposes. And, the isolation mode disables the ability for a supervisory process to set or read the program counter of the SPE. Once the SPE is isolated, the only external action possible is to cancel its task, whereby all data in the LS and SPE are erased before external access is re-enabled.

All of this is accomplished exclusively by hardware means; there is no software (in the form of setting protection bits in a table for example) involved in the process. Because of this absolute hardware isolation, even the operating system and the hypervisor cannot access the locked up LS or take control of the SPE core. Therefore, a hacker who has gained root or hypervisor privileges is not a threat to an application executing on an isolated SPE. The supervisory privileges will not enable him to control the application, nor will it allow him to read or write the memory used by it. The execution flow and the data of the isolated application are safe from manipulation, snooping, and modifications.

Using this capability, a CBE system can achieve the seemingly contradictory goal of protecting a user while simultaneously limiting that user’s ability to infringe upon the security of others. Sensitive private information such as the users’ passwords or credit card numbers can be designated to only be in the clear within an isolated SPE. At the same time, digital entertainment content can be protected from malicious users by always decrypting within an isolated SPE.


HARDWARE ROOT OF TRUST

Due to the malleability of software, it is generally believed that the root of an authentication scheme must be implemented in hardware. If the root can be trusted, then the entity authenticated by the root can be trusted, and so on as the chain of trust expands.

The CBE has a cryptographic-based hardware authentication mechanism that can be used as a foundation of a trusted software stack. The hardware verifies the integrity of the first software module, and in turn, this software module verifies the integrity of a secondary software module. Because the hardware cannot be modified, its operation can be trusted and because the integrity of the first software module was verified by this trusted party, its operation can be trusted, and so on.

This hardware authentication mechanism is activated every time an SPE enters isolation mode. Specifically, the first code module to run during an isolated SPE session has its integrity checked by the hardware root of trust before it is executed. Thus, much like the two parts of an inductive proof, if the SPE isolation mode protects the software’s execution, then, the hardware root of trust ensures that the software’s initial state is correct.
 
Even if it leads to piracy it's a good thing for the platform and its non pirating users. How do you think Windows became so popular? How do you think the PlayStation became so popular? Piracy only hurts when the company's really hurting for money from other reasons, and is not what should be remedied first. It's not like games currently generally sell more on the unhacked PS3 than they do on the hacked 360, do they? The Dreamcast didn't die because of piracy, nor did the DS die because of piracy, nor the Wii, the 360, the PSP, the PC. If some of these platforms are troubled one way or another there are other reasons behind it. It's the least of any given company's problems despite how much they try to tell you it's the biggest or how much piracy is accused for this and that underperforming. My 2 cents.
 
As I've said before, I'm all for this opening up the PS3 for Linux to make full use of.

Piracy though? I'd rather that didn't happen. It's inevitable, but it just fucks everything up.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
Everything looks like crap, and has lovely digital artifacts all over it, and it still manages to be skipping and stuttering. Now, this is on the Mac PS3 MediaServer, so perhaps it isn't fully featured, but it is absolutely useless to me as it stands.

What type of video files are you watching? When i stream videos wirelessly, whether im using Mac or Windows PS3 MediaServer, the quality is perfect, exactly as it would look if its on a usb stick. This goes for when im simply streaming a ps3 compatible file, or transcoding a video + subtitles.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
It's a brand new hack, there are no apps written for it yet. As mentioned, he hasn't retrieved the keys yet, so it's entirely possible we might have to wait another year or two (though he certainly works fast!) before this becomes useful at all.

When Team Twiizers announced they hacked the Wii, it took quite a long time (I think about six months?) for them to get a working version of HBC released to the public, and even longer for there to be apps to be converted over to its format, or created in the first place.

I'm sick and tired of the knee-jerk reaction of "OMG THIS IS JUST FOR PIRACY", because it isn't. As has been mentioned, only recently has the 360 managed to be hacked for homebrew, allowing full access to the hardware, which this hypervisor hack would also allow for.

As for the other thread, I'm going to be going through it and anyone who needs to be banned for promoting piracy, will be shortly.

There could be some neat projects here and there because of the hypervisor hack. It will be used primarily for piracy though, just as has been with every other similar gaming machine. That's not to say people whom are excited in this thread are necessarily pirates, obviously, but in a year or two video game piracy could be in full swing on the PS3. I wish there would be a way to 'open up' a system WITHOUT making Piracy viable at the same time.
 
There is one thing I have been yearning for ever since the PS3 released.

That is, for someone to mod/hack the PS3 into being able to play PS2 and PS1 games from any region.

It killed me to not be able to play Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix+ on my PS3 with the upscaled backwards compatibility.

Now that they removed BC, my chances for something like this to be developed all but disappeared entirely.

If this hacking opens up the door to something like that to be made, though, I would be really happy. :)

That's not to say that people whom are excited in this thread are necessarily pirates, obviously, but in a year or two video game piracy could be in full swing on the PS3.

Piracy was easy and rampant on the PS2, but that didn't stop it from becoming the most successful console ever.
 
Dogenzaka said:
There is one thing I have been yearning for ever since the PS3 released.

That is, for someone to mod/hack the PS3 into being able to play PS2 and PS1 games from any region.

It killed me to not be able to play Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix+ on my PS3 with the upscaled backwards compatibility.

Now that they removed BC, my chances for something like this to be developed all but disappeared entirely.

If this hacking opens up the door to something like that to be made, though, I would be really happy. :)



Piracy was easy and rampant on the PS2, but that didn't stop it from becoming the most successful console ever.


even sony finds it hard to emulate ps2 games on current ps3s. the bandwidth is too much for the RSX.

as for the dominance of the ps2, it helped that it had a huge marketshare. something the ps3 does not have. historically consoles or handhelds who are not market leaders have suffered from piracy. like dreamcast and the psp. anyone who thinks different is a little naive or oblivious in my opinion
 
Elan tedronai said:
even sony finds it hard to emulate ps2 games on current ps3s. the bandwidth is too much for the RSX.

as for the dominance of the ps2, it helped that it had a huge marketshare. something the ps3 does not have. historically consoles or handhelds who are not market leaders have suffered from piracy. like dreamcast and the psp. anyone who thinks different is a little naive or oblivious in my opinion

Well my PS3 doesn't emulate, does it? It's a 60GB BC PS3. Got the Emotion Engine and everything.
:(
 
I'd just like to say bravo for Sony. If there is one thing the PS3 won, it's in security.

But this is great news, PS3 would be excellent for all kinds uses other than gaming with this.
 
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