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Rio Olympics : Egyptian Judoka Refuses to Shake Hands With Israeli
- Thread starter Armadilo
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Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
If your position is that BDS extends to not showing basic courtesy to other human beings you meet (even if in the context of representing their nations), then you can't go to the Olympics. That seems fairly straightforward. The ultimatum that Israeli athletes cannot compete at the same event as the Arab world is incompatible with the Olympics. Although the Olympics has occasionally fell prey to state-to-state disputes, it has not and shouldn't fall prey to person-to-person disputes. The Olympics is like the legendary WW1 christmas day soccer matches: it should be a reminder of the commonwealth of man even in a world where so many divisions exist.
Republic of Ezo
Member
I would argue that Israel has a better historical claim to its land than America does to its own. I don't disagree with what you're saying.
However, Palestine made the choice to go to war in 1947 by not accepting the UN Partition plan. And the other Arab nations joined them in '48 in a war of elimination, in which the stated goal was to drive the Jews into the sea. Certainly that has fostered a great deal of enmity, as did al-Husseini's support of the Nazis in World War II. I don't agree with the goals of the Israeli right-wing which unfortunately now has a majority in the country and is, as you said, hell bent on acquiring all of Palestine. And there were indeed many Zionists (historically, the Irgun and Lehi) who committed wanton violence and acts of terror that cannot be excused. However, going back to my original point, the comparison to Apartheid South Africa just does not stand up to scrutiny. To make that argument is to blindly dismiss the historical context in which the state of Israel was created and the historical ties to the land that the Jews do indeed have. It's a much more complex situation than simple colonialism.
Hidden One
Member
Damn.
ReplacementPelican
Member
That he won't shake hands with a member of a country that is routinely oppressing members of the Ummah? I'm pretty sure that's the point.
It's petty but who gives a fuck, it's only a sports match, there's so much more important in the world, don't you think?
This sums it up nicely.
Audioboxer
Member
When the "whole world" tunes in for the Olympics, especially kids and families, making your political point personal against another human athlete is petty and ignorant at best, discriminatory and inflammatory at worst.
Hence we we often use sporting events as the one time countries and athletes can compete in good faith and walk away winner or loser with their heads held high.
But no let us introduce or let the cancer of the world, bigotry/discrimination roam free in the Olympics because it happens elsewhere. Right?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
So the point he's making is that he's a blind, fanatical moron who can't differentiate between an individual and a nation's government, and a rude asshole? Okay... I guess his point is made!
Did anyone say this was the most important thing in the world? Whoareyoutalkingtowhatareyoutalkingabout.gif
DiscoJer
Member
But would he shake the hand of a Turk? They pretty much do the same to the Kurds as what Israel does to the Palestinians.
I'd take the whole outrage over Palestine a lot more seriously if the same people were just as upset over Kurdistan. (which was divided up between 3 countries as opposed to giving it to the Kurds)
And going outside the Middle East, Tibet.. There's very little talk about that because no one wants to anger China.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I wonder if those who say this has nothing to do with antisemitism believe this would still have happened if the Israeli had been a Muslim.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Go read History, Antisemitism peaked among Muslims after the creation of Israel,
Otherwise there was an alliance between Jews on the Middle East and Muslims.
Even during the Muslim conquest in Spain, their were Jews among the Muslim army.
Jewish Egyptian and Jews temples are still their in Egypt. Jews weren't hated,
Just hating another religion goes against the Prophet teachings.
Among the Islamic Golden age, they're were famous Arab Jewish poets, scientists and medics.
The problem that Arab Jews are facing now is that Zionism and Judaism are mixed.
They are not the same.
I'm starting to believe that Religions are not a source of problems as beliefs, it's the dangerous mixture of Politics and Religion that are tearing the region apart.
Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the same god.
Yeah no...jews and Christians perhaps
Jag
Member
Plenty of posts on Arab forums that at least honestly admit that anti-semitism is rampant and accepted in the Islamic world. I've heard and read it way too many times to think it isn't.
It's also understandable given the events of the 20th century, but to deny that it exists and that the scope is very widespread is being dishonest.
When North Korea can act more honorably, you have a serious issue.
It's also understandable given the events of the 20th century, but to deny that it exists and that the scope is very widespread is being dishonest.
When North Korea can act more honorably, you have a serious issue.
The Albatross
Member
Apparently not very much in this case given that Egypt does not allow Palestinians living in Egypt to apply for Egyptian citizenship, does not allow refugees from Gaza to enter Egypt, destroyed 150 tunnels used by Palestinian refugees in 2015, and has recently completely closed the border to both people and goods to Gaza blockading the territory.
Uhh, no, all three believe in the Abrahamic God. Christians throw a wrench into it with the idea of the Trinity, but all three religions recognize that their sister religions pray to the same God. Christians also consider the Hebrew Torah as sacred, while Muslims believe the Christian Bible is divinely inspired.
All 3 believe in the Abrahamic God?
ReplacementPelican
Member
I understand the point that you're making but I still can't help but feel this thread makes a big deal out of it. People often feel powerless as individuals and nobody gives a shit what this man thinks, does or feels at any other time except for now and he used that to make a point. Would I do it? Of course I fucking wouldn't, I'd shake the guys hand and get on with the sport. Should we be talking about this guy like he's scum? No.
People are representing their countries, it's hardly surprising.
I appreciate the smarm in the final sentence of yours but it should be obvious that my point was not that you or anyone else thinks it's the most important thing but that actually it's one of the least - you even responded to me wrong, I said there's 'so much more' important - but hey, I've heard you dislike people being rude, maybe time to practise what you preach (.gif)?
Yeah, I mean, I won't speak for the guys political ideology and I agree with you to an extent but this is a bit like people saying 'why are you fundraising for breast cancer? Aren't all cancers important!?'
They slightly differ on what he requires....shared history is not the same as believing in the same God
If that were true Christians would have the same God as the mormons
Edit: Also Christians believe in a single God in three persons; a triune God. Pretty sure the muslims don't. Therefore we don't believe in the same God.
Republic of Ezo
Member
No all three do. It's the same Abrahamic god.
andythinkpad
Member
Yeah but fact that they share so many similarity is one of the reasons they have long lasting conflicts.
They do. Muslims beleive Jesus and Moses were prophets. Same with Mormons.
And Christians beleive in the holy trinity, which is different than what Jews and Muslims beleivr, but the god is still the same. Just in Christianity, the God works through three seprate, distinct, entities.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I wonder what the posts would have been like if the Israeli fighter had refused to shake the Egyptian's hand.
Count Dookkake
Member
It's the same god like how Batman is the same guy in the 60s tv show, the Burton films, and Lego Batman.
The Albatross
Member
Christians and Mormons (who consider themselves Christians) generally believe in the same God. Mormons also believe in Jesus Christ.
Though, obviously, Mormons have a lot of additional beliefs that other Christian denominations don't have.
The stories they tell, of course, are all different. Christians and Jews don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, Christians and Jews don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of Man, Jews believe neither, but when the three (or four if you include American Mormonism) are talking about God, they referring to the same Abrahamic God but the characteristics are different.
Holy hell, this is one of the finest analogies I've ever read.
Lol well done.
Fuck that. The very point of the Olympic games is the unity of humans and togetherness through sport. Not even shaking hands as if he will be tarnished. This is dehumanizing. Ban the fucker from the Olympics and fine the Egyptian IOC.
Whitephantomzx
Banned
Besides the Palestinian issue people Egypt was also invaded by Israeli in 1967 which was a massacre on the Egyptian side and the they even managed to even annex sani until it was taken back in another waralso we were receiving lots Gaza refuges during there attack and saw first hand what Israeli was doing so theres a ton of bad blood between the two countries
Civilly? Why should he deal with an occupier civilly?
Count Dookkake
Member
Thanks, guys. I came up with it years ago.
I think the argument that these gods are the same is stupid at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol
Both are equally fictional, but God is nowhere near as cool as Batman though.
And I say this as someone who hates superheroes
Holy shit, what
The Olympics have always been a venue for political protests and gestures. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
Allah is just the Arabic term for God. "God" isn't a name, it's a moniker referring to a supreme deity.
now, if you want to refer to God in various languages...
In English you'd use God
In Arabic you'd use الله‎, (Allah, which is believed to be a contraction of al ilah, literally "The God")
In Hebrew you have a lot of names and monikers, but you'd probably use Adonai ("My Lord") or Elohai/Elohei/Elohim (basically "My God")
Ravensmash
Member
On one hand you're respecting your fellow human being.
On the other, you're perpetuating a division in which neither individual has any direct control.
Also, it's called being nice respective of boundary.
e.g. Part and purpose of the Olympics
Tell me which one is more likely to result in a positive change?
SouSouRocket
Member
I think that's a bit unfair to say--depending on who you ask it is the same God. Christians and Jews share holy books (and won't dispute that amongst each other) and Muslims believe it's the same God as the first two books but the message got sort of reinterpreted along the way. From an atheist's point of view it's easy to reduce it to "nope not the same" but I would respectfully disagree. I love your analogy though 😁 Even tho we disagree on the second point I still find it appropriate.
Agreed. And a good analogy. My specific point is as Christians( to varying degrees) believe in a triune God they really do believe a different being in practice and theory than muslim do...noy even speaking about the differences in revealed theology from the muslim god.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Not to mention that respect and being apolitical is a core principle of judo itself.
All of this.
Wtf is this. Did the Israeli judoka occupy his land? Shouls greeks stop shaking hands with Turks who occupy Constantinople now called Istanbul. It is the Olympics. You're going against the very spirit of the games. Keep your politics out of it.
If a modern Egyptian athlete cannot shake hands with an Israeli athlete it is sheer anti semitism, anti jewism and dehumanization.
How anyone can even defend this shit is beyond me.
Jag
Member
They are both there as representatives of their countries. It's understandable that any Arab would refuse acts of normalization with Israel while they oppress the Palestinians - although in that context, he should have refused to compete against him in the first place.
If you want to get technical, European converts, such as the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, don't really have a strong claim to any legacy in the Levant. Their immigration, and establishment of a new state, can be seen as more European colonialism of foreign lands.
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The games should be a platform to foster ties of friendship between foreign competitors and nations, poor form by the Egyptian athlete and missed opportunity for politicians to begin a positive dialogue. But there has always been the aspect of Olympians demonstrating to express their discontent with the state of the world.
Israeli does not mean Jewish. The Israeli Christian and Muslim population would appreciate being recognized as existing. And that doesn't even account for the usual nationalist tension between two historically warring states. Knock it off with the "It must be Anti-semitism!" rhetoric.
Ravensmash
Member
But the Olympics also represent individual exceptionalism.
I also find it disturbing that normalisation is equatable to basic human civility.
To make it clear, if this individual did this in response to external pressure then I'll somewhat understand. Not to condone obviously.
The fact you extend the actions of a government to it's citizens is just crazy, especially athletes. Fucking anti-semitism in the flesh right here.
Hahahahahahaha
It has nothing to do with his religion or the fact that he's Jewish. He is a representative of the state of Israel, a state which is currently imprisoning the Palestinian population with no civil rights.
While Israel subjugates the Palestinians to this standard of treatment, the only way to fight for their freedom is by boycott, divestment, and sanctions, as well as refusing any acts of normalization with representatives of the Israeli state.
Audioboxer
Member
Well I very much doubt people would be performing the same mental gymnastics to say the Israeli was the victim.
I have a feeling you'd have 99% Islamophobic comments/remarks. Which I have no issue with as long as discrimination is seen equally and not only applied to some humans. Than in itself is a form of discrimination and precisely why we have certain religions thinking they are superior human beings to other human beings.
Chinese Cartoons
Banned
Back home.
In that case, remove the flags and nationalism from the games. Make it an exhibition of human achievement, and there would be no issue shaking his hand. As long as he's there as a representative of the state of Israel though - no normalization.
Yeah? Well good luck bringing any sort of legitimacy to your boycott divestment and sanctions actions by being racist anti semites who treat fellow humans like lepers who can't be touched. Ban any countries like this from the Olympics I say. No wonder Israel plays in UEFA for soccer.
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