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Rottenwatch: AVATAR (82%)

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border said:
You can categorize his status at the beginning however you like, but he goes from being a Na'vi noob at first to being greater than their greatest warriors in a pretty short span.
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jake was a marine and the navi are humanoid. his skills as a warrior are easily transferable. and its not like he was defacto their greatest warrior. he tamed the badass dragon thing but i dont know if he was a better shot/spearman/rider than the other dudes.
 
border said:
Not invincible, just less vulnerable than other characters discussed. I mean, the only way they can make him seem remotely vulnerable is by orchestrating the ridiculously incredible and lucky coincidence that Quarritch happens to land next to his doublewide.
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Jake has the trailer parked next to the tree of souls because the interference was strongest there. The Dragon crashes right near the tree of souls because it was stopped at the very end of their bombing run. Both of these facts are spelled out in the movie.

I don't think coincidence means what you think it means. :p
 
GhaleonEB said:
He's is fast learner, and demonstrates some leadership and balls by hopping on the big bird. But otherwise, he simply adapts to being a Na'vi - nothing more. There's not a scene in the movie where he's shown to be "greater than their greatest warriors", ever.
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I'd argue that riding Toruk is meant to show that he's greater and more worthy than the best the natives have to offer. It implies a great innate ability that is beyond what is currently demonstrable in others; it's essentially equivalent to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. From the act, we infer "destiny" rather than "self-determination", and I think self-determination is more compelling. One might note that King Arthur is one of the more respected heroes of Western civilization, but at the same time how likable/relatable is he? I guess it just depends on the style of hero you like.

Dead said:
And if it werent for the Planet deciding to help, he would have been screwed.
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A deus ex machina is not exactly the mark of great storytelling, and was my biggest gripe with Return of the King. But that's beyond the scope of a discussion about characters and characterization.
 
border said:
A deus ex machina is not exactly the mark of great storytelling, and was my biggest gripe with Return of the King. But that's beyond the scope of a discussion about characters and characterization.
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How is it a deus ex machina?

It was set up that the Planet was made up of a neural network that led to communication. Jake was shown directly in uplink with the planet asking it for help, after which Neytiri told him it probably would not.

The planet chose to help. Its not a deus ex machina, at all.
 
I keep telling myself I will watch Avatar, but more than a month later I still haven't seen it yet. :/ Guess I'll just wait for the blu-ray release.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Jake has the trailer parked next to the tree of souls because the interference was strongest there. The Dragon crashes right near the tree of souls because it was stopped at the very end of their bombing run. Both of these facts are spelled out in the movie.
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I got that they moved the trailer closer to the Tree, yes. But he doesn't just land near the doublewide, he lands within visual sight of it in a dense jungle environment. They do their best to explain it, but it still feels like a contrivance to me.

It's a contrivance that only lends itself to the "death god" problem, because at least in the screenwriter's opinion the only way to put Jake in real peril and create tension is to expose his only weakness. He's not vulnerable or weak enough as just an Avatar - his real body must be exposed.
 
border said:
I'd argue that riding Toruk is meant to show that he's greater and more worthy than the best the natives have to offer. It implies a great innate ability that is beyond what is currently demonstrable in others; it's essentially equivalent to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. From the act, we infer "destiny" rather than "self-determination", and I think self-determination is more compelling. One might note that King Arthur is one of the more respected heroes of Western civilization, but at the same time how likable/relatable is he? I guess it just depends on the style of hero.
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I would disagree. In the case of Excalibur, many tried and failed to pull Excalibur from the stone and failed. Arthur was successful because he was the true King.

In this case, Neytiri told the story of how her great ancestor had tamed the Toruk but it seemed like the Na'vi people saw it a story. No one attempted to become the next Toruk rider as that was romanticized.

There weren't Na'vi lining up to tame Toruk.

Jake simply took control of destiny.
 
border said:
I got that they moved the trailer closer to the Tree, yes. But he doesn't just land near the doublewide, he lands within visual sight of it in a dense jungle environment. They do their best to explain it, but it still feels like a contrivance to me.

It's a contrivance that only lends itself to the "death god" problem, because at least in the screenwriter's opinion the only way to put Jake in real peril and create tension is to expose his only weakness. He's not vulnerable or weak enough as just an Avatar - his real body must be exposed.
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Its a fact that its the best way to put him in peril. And its definitely the way that would best serve the story.

It risks his real body AND his Avatar body. Why wouldnt you want stakes to be high during a final battle?

Its not to make him even more invincible. Its to drive up the drama and tension in the finale. And it works. The fight is tense and powerful, and it leads to one of the most memorable scenes in the entire film.
 
Dead said:
How is it a deus ex machina?
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Victory comes only at the hands of divine intervention.....from the hands of a divine force we are told is not going to pick sides. It doesn't fit the most formal definition of deus ex machina wherein the solution to a problem comes completely out of leftfield from a source unestablished in the narrative, but it still comes from something largely external to the narrative and the solution is not really the result of any one character's will, determination, or ability.

Le-mo said:
I keep telling myself I will watch Avatar, but more than a month later I still haven't seen it yet. :/ Guess I'll just wait for the blu-ray release.
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I didn't even care for the 3D version of Avatar that much, but that said you really ought to see it in a theatre, in 3D.
 
border said:
Victory comes only at the hands of divine intervention.....from the hands of a divine force we are told is not going to pick sides. It doesn't fit the most formal definition of deus ex machina wherein the solution to a problem comes completely out of leftfield from a source unestablished in the narrative, but it still comes from something largely external to the narrative and the solution is not really the result of any one character's will, determination, or ability.
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Thats a lot of words to admit that its not a deus ex machina

I dont see how it is external to the narrative. A large portion of the movie is about how the Navi are connected to their planet, to its creatures, how the trees communicates. Why would the payoff of this plot point be considered external to the narrative?

Jake gave in to what he had learned with the Navi, going completely against what he believed before in the movie when he asked the planet for help. It was part of the furthering of his permanent footing as a Na'vi. You could imply that the planet returning his call, was in a way a validation of him as one of the Na'vi now.
 
border said:
Victory comes only at the hands of divine intervention.....from the hands of a divine force we are told is not going to pick sides. It doesn't fit the most formal definition of deus ex machina wherein the solution to a problem comes completely out of leftfield from a source unestablished in the narrative, but it still comes from something largely external to the narrative and the solution is not really the result of any one character's will, determination, or ability.


I didn't even care for the 3D version of Avatar that much, but that said you really ought to see it in a theatre, in 3D.
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We are told that Eywa only preserves the balance of life. By looking into Grace's memory it could be seen that the humans are an infection that would spread and overturn that balance. The actions are not unlike that of antibodies in an immune system.
 
Dead said:
Thats a lot of words to admit that its not a deus ex machina

I dont see how it is external to the narrative.
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What I'm saying is that it is essentially external to the characters, if not the narrative itself. I'd have just as much problem if Indiana Jones prayed to God to kill all the Nazis, and then God miraculously did so. The Army of the Dead is established about as well in Return of the King, yet it still kinda bugs me since it's not the will and drive of the people that brought about victory.

Dead said:
Its not to make him even more invincible. Its to drive up the drama and tension in the finale. And it works. The fight is tense and powerful, and it leads to one of the most memorable scenes in the entire film.
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I like the final 30 minutes of the film a great deal, and don't have any real quarrel with those sections. But still, I feel like the contrivance of the scenario says something about how far they've pushed our perception of Jake's ability. Others may see it differently, and if they do then so be it (jedi). :)
 
border said:
What I'm saying is that it is essentially external to the characters, if not the narrative itself. I'd have just as much problem if Indiana Jones prayed to God to kill all the Nazis, and then God miraculously did so. The Army of the Dead is established about as well in Return of the King, yet it still kinda bugs me since it's not the will and drive of the people that brought about victory.
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The interconnectedness and relation to the planet and its inhabitants is one of the key aspects of the Na'vi, the people that Jake is becoming a part of. His believing of the planets "intelligence" is integral to truly "becoming one of the people" and the planet helping in the final battle not only pays off on the plot points introduced, but in a way endorses his existence as a Na'vi. In my book, that is not at all external to the character :)

And I disagree that it does a disservice to the will and drive of the people. It validates that what the Na'vi are fighting for really matters and really does exist despite what the Humans, like Parker, think. The ghosts in ROTK have no relation to the struggle, however on Pandora all things are connected, the Na'vi are fighting to preserve their planet, of which its creatures are just as much a part of.
 
I dunno, maybe it's something you either you like or you don't. You are arguing that "Salvation Through Faith" is a compelling and valid narrative trope, but it bothers the hell out of me. I want to see heroes fight for their freedom and win on the basis of their own heart and ability. If it's just a matter of praying and letting God do most of the work for you, it's not as cool.
 
If you want to consider a planetmind God, then sure. (though thats just semantics, heh)

Like Weaver says in the movie, it is something measurable, something that exists. Obviously Jake knows its not a god. However Jake has to believe in the sentience of the planet after all that he has seen and experienced.

I dont think its about faith, so much so as it is about opening your eyes to what the other side sees.

The RDA does not open their eyes to understand how the planet really works, they just want the unobtainium and that's all. Jake however goes on to open his, and learns about the planet and accepts and comes to understand it.
 
Scullibundo said:
We are told that Eywa only preserves the balance of life. By looking into Grace's memory it could be seen that the humans are an infection that would spread and overturn that balance. The actions are not unlike that of antibodies in an immune system.
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Exactly how I saw it. They basically all but say that the entirety of Pandora is, itself, a living thing by the way everything that lives on it is connected to it through what is essentially a super-high speed network.
 
Count Dookkake said:
Indiana Jones is a fine comic hero. Unfortunately, much of his antics (particularly the over-the-top stunts and one-liners) all too often remind the audience they are watching a character in a movie and not a real person. Also, he serves no great purpose in the plot. The Nazis would have been melted by God without his involvement.

Next.
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What the hell? Why don't you post like this more often rather than posting awful puns? I love it.
 
Plus, it was his destiny. In the cut dream sequence (code word for giving people crazy dreams with "scorpion" poison :lol ) Jake learns that it the big bird is his "totem animal".

Even with that bit cut, I thought that it was clear that Jake has a) less cultural/spiritual qualms about taking the Toruk for himself and b) was a born flyer (foreshadowed in his dreams in the veteran hospital. He´s an ex-Marine and has no problems taking whatever weapon he needs, while a Na´vi would probably feel unworthy even thinking about becoming one of the great Toruk riders of their ancient history.
 
Looks like it's going to be a long wait for people that want to watch it in 3D at home.

In other news, James Cameron's Avatar has just broken his own Titanic's all-time worldwide box office record to become the #1 grossing film in movie history. Pretty extraordinary. Consider this Rumor Mill worthy (and we've reported it previously), but there have been hints that 2D DVD and Blu-ray versions will arrive in stores in April or May, followed by a Blu-ray 3D version this holiday season. We'll post the official announcement news when it's available.
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http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#012710
 
Actuals for the weekend just came in and just as I predicted they jumped up to $31.2 million down only 10% from last weekend. As usual....holy fucking shit.
 
It's getting ridiculous. Countries over 100m:

France: $134,670,144
China: $127,597,457
Germany: $106,507,804
UK: $105,706,880
Russia: $101,828,370

rest here: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=avatar.htm

3D premium or not, this in particular is insane:

Top 20 All-Time Australia in US$

1. Avatar - $84,162,197 --> locked for 100m
2. The Dark Knight - $39,880,001
3. Crocodile Dundee - $39,756,000
4. Titanic - $38,891,987
5. Lord of the Rings: Return of the King - $36,550,919
6. Shrek 2 - $35,456,463
7. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - $34,999,141
8. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen - $33,554,033
9. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix - $29,409,933
10. Mamma Mia! - $29,287,446
11. Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End - $29,085,288
12. Shrek The Third - $28,594,698
13. Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest - $28,477,460
14. E.T.: The Extraterrestrial - $28,402,000
15. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull - $27,981,873
16. Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith - $27,248,575
17. Babe - $27,098,175
18. Meet the Fockers - $26,916,341
19. Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers - $26,850,032
20. Finding Nemo - $26,820,431
 
Somnia said:
Actuals for the weekend just came in and just as I predicted they jumped up to $31.2 million down only 10% from last weekend. As usual....holy fucking shit.
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And for the week overall (Mon-Sun), down 11%. Just utterly bonkers. I'm done predicting this thing. :lol
 
GhaleonEB said:
And for the week overall (Mon-Sun), down 11%. Just utterly bonkers. I'm done predicting this thing. :lol
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Ya I'm done predicting other than this...it will NOT beat Titanics weekend record this weekend (29 million if I remember right) however it will beat its 10th weekend record (21 million). So it may skip a weekend, but it will pick up the one right after which will look weird on the record list :lol
 
Somnia said:
Ya I'm done predicting other than this...it will NOT beat Titanics weekend record this weekend (29 million if I remember right) however it will beat its 10th weekend record (21 million). So it may skip a weekend, but it will pick up the one right after which will look weird on the record list :lol
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Nah, it'll beat this coming weekend: the record is $23,027,838; Avatar would have to drop 26%, which probably isn't happening. You're thinking of the following weekend. So Avatar will have at least one more in the bag before ceding to Cameron's last. :lol

BTW, here's the weekly world-wide performances (Monday-Friday), after the opening weekend, which I think really shows Avatar's legs:

Code: 
Period	             Global Box Office	Weekly Change
Opening Weekend	        242,525,481	
Week 1 (Mon-Sun)	383,343,626	
Week 2 (Mon-Sun)	399,509,854	4%
Week 3 (Mon-Sun)	316,315,186	-21%
Week 4 (Mon-Sun)	266,983,119	-16%
Week 5 (Mon-Sun)	230,125,055	-14%
Week 6 (Mon-Sun)	203,939,388	-11%
Total	                2,042,741,709
Avatar seems to be leveling out.
 
I know why Cameron diluted the story, but he skipped so many awesome missed opportunities in this.

It probably wouldn't have been as successful if he got a bit more serious, but it would have been more interesting (though I still enjoyed it quite a bit).

Such as:

- Taking the subject matter more seriously. We have a human who has basically abandoned Earth and finds it hopeless. Only to completely change species and take in a new identity. All we got instead was Quaritch saying "How does it feel to betray your race?" and instead of an answer we get more fighting. Cool, I guess. But he could have gone somewhere better with this.

- Earth has no evidence at all of God. People must rely on faith. Yet in Pandora, the Na'Vi conveniently have actual direct evidence of their God's power. At least show some understanding for the damn humans here, instead of completely being black-and-white.

- Isn't it contradicting it's own message of the 'strong preying over the weak' by having these aliens literally mind-controlling/raping their beasts? wut?

...blah blah blah. I came out of the theater smiling. But like Titanic, I probably won't care much for this film after a few months. It won't hold up to the Terminator films or Aliens for me. Technically though, it's brilliant.
 
Interested to see how many nominations Avatar gets tomorrow at the Oscar reveal.

I want to see the movie win everything just for the hell of it now. Who the fuck would have thought spending a half billion on a 70% cg nerdgasm with 10 foot tall blue people that looked like they came right from a Disney movie would be a 2 billion hit with award wins. This is the biggest underdog ever.
 
Not really an underdog for awards. It was definitely an underdog for the box office though.

I remember being so hyped for it and then when the trailer hit all the internet trolls were bashing it. I kept defending the trailer but I sort of felt like I was one of the band members on the sinking ship.

Hell I even lowered my expectations for 600-700 million at the most IF it didn't flop :lol

As for awards, if it makes this much damn money it's bound to win some awards. Regardless if the film is good or bad. The Oscars expanded their nominees to 10 for a reason, they don't want to ignore big films and need the same huge ratings they got when ROTK cleaned up.
 
MarketSaw starting the Avatar 2 hype train lol

Jim here. Never too early to start talking AVATAR 2 right? I mean, AVATAR - the original - has already passed $2b and is set to relegate TITANIC from first class to steerage this week for domestic box office! Well, ok not steerage. Second class. :-)

I have the same sources embedded for AVATAR 2 as we did for the first one and let me tell you the excitement is palpable! Thanks to those guys, we ruled the exclusives for AVATAR. The confidence that is being exuded by the guys that worked on AVATAR is a pleasure to behold and this after taking months and months of verbal abuse focused on their task at hand from some sites. The payoff for them now is ultra sweet let me tell you.

NOW they have credentials behind their effort coming forth for AVATAR 2. Which brings me to the first question: Will AVATAR 2 be James Cameron's next picture? The answer is... we don't know yet. Honestly. Some sites are saying right now that pre-production is underway - that is inaccurate: They are preparing, but it is not officially underway yet. Cameron is always in some sort of prep for many movies on his slate. Hirings happen all the time in his world. Heck BATTLE ANGEL has tons of work done already in prep. I will relay this though: He is under IMMENSE pressure to make AVATAR 2. Of course this makes sense. Many people took huge risks on Cameron and his comeback of all comeback movies. Is it time to pay back Fox and investors with a return to Jake and Neytiri? Strike while Home Tree is still hot? I have no confirmation through my sources one way or the other yet, but I am working on it. One thing is pretty much written in stone though - BATTLE ANGEL is back-burnered. It will either be THE DIVE or AVATAR 2 at this point. Slight chance that THE LAST TRAIN FROM HIROSHIMA could sneak in, but doubtful.

But will that stop them from getting ready for AVATAR 2 either way? No. Discussions and preparations are underway right now. Whether it is next remains to be seen. I will have an update on this the instant I receive it - you can count on that!

Now for the interesting stuff: Just what is being discussed right now? Well for one, what we saw in AVATAR's finale was just a battle. AVATAR 2 will be full blown war. War is coming - Jim Cameron war that is! We know that Cameron and Landau are taking AVATAR sequels OFF of Pandora and I am working closely with my sources to determine exactly where they will take place.

Don't forget it was MarketSaw who broke the story that AVATAR 2 will be off of Pandora (October 26, 2009). Not the LATimes (who published on December 22, 2009!). I mean, wow. Almost a full TWO months after we post the story. Feels a lot like what happened last week with us too. Guess it is par for the course.

Further to what is in AVATAR 2, portions of the original scriptment that were left untouched by AVATAR will indeed be touched by AVATAR 2. I am seeking details as I write. Will update when I get it.

This news comes from one of my top AVATAR sources guys.
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http://marketsaw.blogspot.com/2010/02/exclusive-want-early-word-on-avatar-2.html
 
Posting Marketsaw 'news' really does need to stop.

He hasn't said anything that can't be gathered by Cameron's last comments apart from the within 4 years thing.

He gambles with information, so when it accidentally hits and is right he sits around saying 'See! I told you my sources come through.' followed by months upon months of 'Remember that time I broke the news to you about BLANK?'

But whenever his sources are wrong (85% of the time), he says 'Oh, that source got it from another source we just found out was unreliable, he won't use that source again!'

I hate that motherfucker.
 
Scullibundo said:
Posting Marketsaw 'news' really does need to stop.

He hasn't said anything that can't be gathered by Cameron's last comments apart from the within 4 years thing.

He gambles with information, so when it accidentally hits and is right he sits around saying 'See! I told you my sources come through.' followed by months upon months of 'Remember that time I broke the news to you about BLANK?'

But whenever his sources are wrong (85% of the time), he says 'Oh, that source got it from another source we just found out was unreliable, he won't use that source again!'

I hate that motherfucker.
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But, its like the Brimstone of Avatar news :(
 
Mom called today telling me that they're going to see Avatar and if I'd like to go with them. I had told her before that I saw it and didn't like it. She said "They say it's even better the second time!", I said "No, thanks", then I spent a few minutes explaining to her why I didn't like it, but I encouraged her to go see it. She only goes to the movies like once every few years.

She kept going on about what a phenomena this movie has become, the local papers raving about it, etc. What a fine example of "the tipping point", now everybody has to go see it or they'd feel left out.

So my mom, two sisters, nephew, niece and the MAID are watching Avatar right now. I dropped them off at the theater and came back, I look forward to their impressions. One of my sisters has seen it already and she rallied them to join her for her second viewing.
 
Avatar Oscar nominations, from the other thread:

Best Picture
Best Director
Art Direction
Cinematography
Film Editing
Music (Original Score)
Sound Editing
Sound Mixing
Visual Effects

Wonder why Sculli got banned. How's that thread going, Gui_PT?
 
Naked Snake said:
Mom called today telling me that they're going to see Avatar and if I'd like to go with them. I had told her before that I saw it and didn't like it. She said "They say it's even better the second time!", I said "No, thanks", then I spent a few minutes explaining to her why I didn't like it, but I encouraged her to go see it. She only goes to the movies like once every few years.

She kept going on about what a phenomena this movie has become, the local papers raving about it, etc. What a fine example of "the tipping point", now everybody has to go see it or they'd feel left out.

So my mom, two sisters, nephew, niece and the MAID are watching Avatar right now. I dropped them off at the theater and came back, I look forward to their impressions. One of my sisters has seen it already and she rallied them to join her for her second viewing.
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Naked Snake, you don't like the movie? Noooooooooooooooooo!
 
It deserves Visual Effects, Art Direction and probably Cinematography.

Aside from that....I'd give it to other films probably. Oh and they should make him a special "Thank you for saving the industry....again" award.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Avatar Oscar nominations, from the other thread:

Best Picture
Best Director
Art Direction
Cinematography
Film Editing
Music (Original Score)
Sound Editing
Sound Mixing
Visual Effects

Wonder why Sculli got banned. How's that thread going, Gui_PT?
Click to expand...

He was banned for skawang-related offenses.
 
Naked Snake said:
Mom called today telling me that they're going to see Avatar and if I'd like to go with them. I had told her before that I saw it and didn't like it. She said "They say it's even better the second time!", I said "No, thanks", then I spent a few minutes explaining to her why I didn't like it, but I encouraged her to go see it. She only goes to the movies like once every few years.

She kept going on about what a phenomena this movie has become, the local papers raving about it, etc. What a fine example of "the tipping point", now everybody has to go see it or they'd feel left out.

So my mom, two sisters, nephew, niece and the MAID are watching Avatar right now. I dropped them off at the theater and came back, I look forward to their impressions. One of my sisters has seen it already and she rallied them to join her for her second viewing.
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Sorry but you sound terrible. You had a rare chance to bond with your mom with a medium you admit she hardly goes to, instead it seems you went the elite angry jaded internet geek route :(
 
Discotheque said:
It deserves Visual Effects, Art Direction and probably Cinematography.

Aside from that....I'd give it to other films probably. Oh and they should make him a special "Thank you for saving the industry....again" award.
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Sound mixing (and probably editing) should go to it as well IMO.
 
madara said:
Sorry but you sound terrible. You had a rare chance to bond with your mom with a medium you admit she hardly goes to, instead it seems you went the elite angry jaded internet geek route :(
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I'm not sure what you're referring to: Me refusing to go watch the movie again with them or me explaining to her why I didn't like it? I hope it's not the former cause I really don't see a justification for it. I didn't like movie and I'm not willing to spend the money to watch it again, simple. And I never considered sitting next to someone in a dark theater for two hours looking straight ahead as "bonding", not to mention with 3D glasses which further inhibit interaction. I can "bond" with her by discussing the movie in detail after she sees it, which I intend to do.

If you're referring to me criticizing the movie to her, my justification is that she was kind of insistent on getting it out of me. I actually had difficulty expressing myself because I'm used to communicating and thinking in English but I speak to her in Arabic, and I struggled with that at first and tried to change the subject a couple of times but she really wanted to hear why I didn't like it. So I put the effort and told her what I think. Thankfully it didn't seem to affect her excitement to go see it at all.
 
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