Support NeoGAF

[duckroll]

Simple != dumb or poorly told.

The story in the Rock is by no means poorly told, and is more complex and smarter than any plot point in Avatar. Now, obviously I am not crediting this to Bay, but simply that it had a very strong script to work from. But given a good script, Bay's visual magic really takes a military style action thriller to a much higher level than most other directors.

 

[Solo]

I thought TF2 was written by the same guys that wrote Star Trek?

Coincidence that ST's weakest element by a long shot is its script? I think not!

 

[duckroll]

Just an FYI to some who do not know, duckroll liked TF2.

Spoiler

Yes, he did

A poor script is no excuse for a director. Bay is actively choosing/writing scripts, thats his standards. Then there are others like Nolans, Camerons and the like.

OMG! I LIKED TF2! Hey I like Avatar too! OMG AVATAR = TF2!!! :lol

 

[LeMaximilian]

Just IMDB'd Bay, he has never made a good film, I'd say Cameron has never made a bad one, although True Lies doesn't do much for me.

And to me, True Lies is the best Action Comedy ever...

Bill Paxton/Tom Arnold are funny as hell in that movie. The Crimson Jihad!

But given a good script, Bay's visual magic really takes a military style action thriller to a much higher level than most other directors.

What's your opinion on Aliens then?

 

[GhaleonEB]

The story in the Rock is by no means poorly told, and is more complex and smarter than any plot point in Avatar. Now, obviously I am not crediting this to Bay, but simply that it had a very strong script to work from. But given a good script, Bay's visual magic really takes a military style action thriller to a much higher level than most other directors.

I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation here. Not because I'm ignoring you, but because you used the phrase "Bay's visual magic". Bay's best movie is leagues below Cameron's worst.

I think Bay can make fun, dumb action movies if he has a good script. He's shown no ability to elevate the script to a higher level by coaxing superb performances from his actors or staging action in a way that's memorable, unique or (very often) even coherent. We obviously disagree as to his talents, so I won't combat you further on the point.

 

[∀ Narayan]

I want a ZOE film made using this tech

I want a Ghost in The Shell or Gundam film using this tech. I personally think James Cameron would be perfect for those two. Especially if the GiTS film is like Stand Alone Complex, and if the Gundam film is like the first Gundam series.

 

[Expendable.]

Avatar is the #1 DISABILITY - PARAPLEGIC / QUADRIPLEGIC genre movie of all time: http://boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=disability-paraplegic.htm

It's been a long journey

 

[Count Dookkake]

The story in the Rock is by no means poorly told, and is more complex and smarter than any plot point in Avatar. Now, obviously I am not crediting this to Bay, but simply that it had a very strong script to work from. But given a good script, Bay's visual magic really takes a military style action thriller to a much higher level than most other directors.

1) You are picking the best Bay movie. It is an aberration in his record and not indicative of the quality or general direction of the rest of his work.

2) Bay does have cool military stuff in his movies, but that comes with the budget.

3) Bay does not stage action well. Most of his battles are incoherent and indistinguishable to me.

4) Give this hypothetical 'good script' to any other director with an eye for staging action and you would have a better film.

5) Avatar outclasses Bay's work in all areas.

6) Opinions are like assholes. Some stink.

 

[Aselith]

Avatar making money is so great for so many reasons.

1) We get more Avatar
2) We get more James Cameron making whatever the fuck he wants
3) Other studios will look at the money Avatar is generating as a non-franchise, non-sequel, completely original film, and see that there is the potential for massive revenue in creating a new IP as opposed to solely working from one
4) The much-debated performance-capturing tech will have been proven exceptionally effective, both in terms of the actual visuals that result from it, and the ease and intuitiveness with which it makes directing a mix of CGI and live-action (though, obviously, not every director is James Cameron, and this point would also be proven if Avatar had made $0)
5) It will also prove, as a 2:40 hr long movie, that audiences are perfectly willing to wear 3D glasses for a movie that's worth it

Taken as a collective, Avatar will have advanced filmmaking, as was promised.

And also, greater recognition for awesome people like Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana.

I don't see this one. James Cameron is a force of nature. I'm sure other studios execs will realize that as much as anyone. I doubt they'll be anymore inclined to do orginial stuff than they are now because of Avatar.

 

[zoukka]

OMG! I LIKED TF2! Hey I like Avatar too!

Makes sense to me.

True Lies is the best Action Comedy ever...

This is true. The cast is just superb. Arnies best role.

 

[StuBurns]

And to me, True Lies is the best Action Comedy ever...

Intended no disrespect my good man, nor to duckroll, it's definitely highly subjective. Although, I haven't watched True Lies in years, I watched all of Cameron's other films in the last month.

 

[duckroll]

What's your opinion on Aliens then?

It's a great movie, but it's about space marines fighting a bunch of fucking aliens. I wouldn't really compare that to movies about actual present day military people set in the real world. I was referring to movies like The Rock, GI Jane, Black Hawk Down, or even Predator.

 

[Zeliard]

Sure, I'll agree that Bay's movies are big dumb fun, but in the context of this entire discussion... isn't Avatar? I mean it's honestly a really cliched, generic story, most of us agree with that, and it's presented in a really well told way with awesome action and set pieces, while the emotional elements are all telegraphed from a mile away but some of us fall for it anyway because of how well it's directed. There's nothing really "smart" about Avatar in the larger scheme of things.

I don't hate Michael Bay, and I would say The Rock is one of the great all-time action movies, but I still honestly can't see him ever directing the action scenes with anything approaching the clarity that James Cameron did in Avatar.

Though I do think that's probably saying more about Cameron's skill than Bay's lack thereof. A large amount of directors have great trouble with this sort of thing. It's one of the major things that has always separated Cameron from the pack - the man can direct action like few others and he manages to effortlessly keep the audience focused on all of the awesome stuff. The final act of Avatar is sheer action-directing majesty.

Seriously, I was staring at the entire last part of Avatar goggle-eyed the entire time (I don't even think I blinked), while doing that with a big action sequence in most other movies would give me a splitting headache due to the quick cutting, inferior choreography and poor framing.

 

[Combine]

Ah, James Cameron's villains are so one-dimensional, but they're oh so fun. Although I didn't care for Billy Zane's character in Titanic. But still, Abu Aziz is an awesome terrorist. And of course, now we have Colonel "I can do that" Quaritch.

 

[StuBurns]

Cameron had an unprecedented level of control on this 'battle' scene though. He promised the battle to end all battles, I think he delivered, however he wasn't doing anything in the real world, nothing is left to chance or opportunity, he had the ability to change every single element up until rendering I would imagine.

 

[LeMaximilian]

Intended no disrespect my good man, nor to duckroll, it's definitely highly subjective. Although, I haven't watched True Lies in years, I watched all of Cameron's other films in the last month.

Haha, I tried to do the same thing. Watched The Abyss a few days before seeing the film...totally forgot about some scenes.

Where Ed Harris is getting beat up by Michael Beihn scene, then his trucker friends shows up and clocks him in the face... "HEY!"...THWAK. I then said, "FUCK YES". God, I love these movies...

Colonel "I can do that" Quaritch.

Colonel "Masks On" Quaritch.

 

[jett]

Oh duckroll, how low are you willing to go? Calling Bay a talented director, comparing Avatar to transdongers?

 

[duckroll]

I'm not sure why this is turning into Cameron vs Bay here. I don't think anyone has said, or will say, that Bay is a better director than Cameron, or that he is better at staging action than Cameron. That would be nonsense. I was simply defending Bay on a single point, that claimed Bay was probably unable or unwilling to ever "learn" anything beyond directing something like TF2.

Yes, I liked TF2, I have also repeatedly stated WHY I enjoyed it, and my thoughts on what the film failed at and what it succeeded at. I think people who were in the TF2 thread know this for a fact, but yet decide to continue to ignore the fact that I am hardly someone with unreasonable opinions. I don't tell people what they should think or what they should like, and I respect differences in opinion as much as anyone else. TF2 has tons of flaws in the storytelling and especially in the pacing and coherency in the flow of scenes. Yet Bay has directed many movies which do NOT exhibit these problems.

Looks like it's all good fun to take a dump on Bay in any thread, until someone defends him, then suddenly everyone is so defensive as if anyone defending Bay is claiming he is better than the subject of the thread itself. Maybe you guys should learn to read, for a bunch of people talking about "smart" movies, you don't seem to have very good comprehension.

 

[duckroll]

Oh duckroll, how low are you willing to go? Calling Bay a talented director, comparing Avatar to transdongers?

I'm willing to go all the way. Bay is my man, I'll die for him.

 

[Count Dookkake]

If Pearl Harbor was Bay learning from Titanic, I wouldn't hold onto hope for him to learn anything good from Avatar.









Also, Shia goes to robot heaven.

 

[DMczaf]

I'm willing to go all the way. Bay is my man, I'll die for him.

Will you fight for him?

Will you lie for him?

Will you walk the wire for him?

 

[zoukka]

Transbuilders really did raise Bay to a new level in the eyes of the masses. I think he's pretty terrible. I saw The Rock a while ago and while it has still some of that epicness that it did when I was a kid, it wasn't all that great of a movie. The actors, VX gas and the locale are the greatest thing in it. Not the comedic action scenes or the other directing.


The final duel in the Avatar was pretty lame. I did loloud at the knife though :lol

 

[duckroll]

If Peal Harbor was Bay learning from Titanic, I wouldn't hold out any hope for him to learn anything good from Avatar.

What are you talking about? What's Pearl Harbor? I've never heard of it. :lol

Also, Shia goes to robot heaven.

He died for YOUR sins. ;_;

 

[ryutaro's mama]

The topic of this thread shifts from page to page.

I think it's hands down the best thread on GAF currently.

Love it.

 

[artist]

I'm willing to go all the way. Bay is my man, I'll die for him.

Be sure to tag along nomg wrong (omg rite) with you, remember he's the other die hard fan of TF2 here. :lol

 

[StuBurns]

This isn't a Bay thread, lets talk about Avatar instead.

So... Transformers 3 in 3D you think?

 

[Combine]

I know some people originally were talking about wanting Michael Biehn to be Quaritch, but come on now, Stephen Lang completely owned that role.

Gonna be a tough villain to top for the sequels to be sure.

The final duel in the Avatar was pretty lame

repeating what someone said, you've got some strange freaking taste....smh

 

[duckroll]

Be sure to tag along nomg wrong with you, remember he's the other die hard fan of TF2 here. :lol

See, now you're just being downright mean. I don't disrespect you, why're disrespecting me man? :lol

 

[StuBurns]

Gonna be a tough villain to top for the sequels to be sure.

I was thinking about this earlier, without going into any spoilers, Avatar 2 is going to be pretty barren in terms of returning characters.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Well, to get back on topic...

Considering TDK isn't even as good as BB, Avatar easily trumps it.

 

[Kaako]

My dad just called me and asked me about Avatar. He apparently heard about it on the local radio and wanted to see it. I told him to see it @ Imax 3d. I'll probably watch it with them haha.

 

[Veidt]

I can definitely see Avatar winning best film+ best director+best Special FX.

 

[StuBurns]

I can definitely see Avatar winning best film+ best director+best Special FX.

I've been thinking about this, I don't think he's getting best film. I'm going for Best Director, Best Visual Effects, Best Actress and maybe Best Art Direction, but I'm not sure about that one at all.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

This isn't a Bay thread, lets talk about Avatar instead.

So... Transformers 3 in 3D you think?

Shaky cam + 3D = fun times

The next Bourne movie should be 3D too.

 

[Zeliard]

I don't see this one. James Cameron is a force of nature. I'm sure other studios execs will realize that as much as anyone. I doubt they'll be anymore inclined to do orginial stuff than they are now because of Avatar.

I hope you're wrong, but I think it's too early to determine. I think it'll ultimately show the viability of putting a new IP out there if the other factors are there. Certainly, not everyone is James Cameron and he's bought himself quite a bit of elbow room through his directorial and money-generating prowess, but I think/hope that studio execs will look at Avatar and realize that something that essentially comes out of nowhere can be enormous.

It's probably to a greater extent with Avatar than most movies, since relatively few even knew about Avatar's existence a month ago compared to now. So Avatar is essentially a completely new, sci-fi/fantasy IP that is going to end up generating HUGE bank almost solely through the power of word-of-mouth, rather than marketing. I hope that'll have some influence.

And duckroll, I just took your post as an excuse to continue lavishing praise on Cameron. I'm glad you agree!

 

[Kaako]

I can definitely see Avatar winning best film+ best director+best Special FX.

I'd be kinda surprised (in a good way) if they give it best film. I could definitely see best director and special FX though. Also, Zoe has to win something. She did an awesome job with the acting.

Edit: damnit stuburns! :lol

 

[gdt]

I've been thinking about this, I don't think he's getting best film. I'm going for Best Director, Best Visual Effects, Best Actress and maybe Best Art Direction, but I'm not sure about that one at all.

Best Actress is not even a nomination. Nope.

(And I think she deserves it)

 

[∀ Narayan]

I can definitely see Avatar winning best film

Nope.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Weird thing about the VFX category is that it doesn't always go to the most deserving FX work. The voters are too easily swayed by BO and critical response. Luckily, that shouldn't harm Avatar.

 

[Veidt]

I've been thinking about this, I don't think he's getting best film. I'm going for Best Director, Best Visual Effects, Best Actress and maybe Best Art Direction, but I'm not sure about that one at all.

I see avatar winning all of those, except Best Actress. Zoe was damn good, she embodied the most realistic portrayal of an alien for goodness sake. But the academy won't take her. I'll be surprised and filled with joy if they do.

edit:

wtf no best actress nomination?

 

[LeMaximilian]

Shaky cam + 3D = fun times

If Avatar is like getting your eyes fucked...then this would be forced entry without lube.

 

[Dan]

I know some people originally were talking about wanting Michael Biehn to be Quaritch, but come on now, Stephen Lang completely owned that role.

I don't know about that. Biehn knows how to humanize and contribute some nuance to a role, as he did with Hicks on Aliens, which just a standard hardcore marine role until he came in. Lang was good at being a towering 100% badass cartoon character, but it's just that.

I want a Ghost in The Shell or Gundam film using this tech. I personally think James Cameron would be perfect for those two. Especially if the GiTS film is like Stand Alone Complex, and if the Gundam film is like the first Gundam series.

What?! Ghost in the Shell is waaaay too intelligent for Cameron. The guy has no grasp let alone interest in complex stories or philosophical concepts. The action might prove decent, but the rest would be ignored.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I can definitely see Avatar winning best film+ best director+best Special FX.

I've been thinking about this, I don't think he's getting best film. I'm going for Best Director, Best Visual Effects, Best Actress and maybe Best Art Direction, but I'm not sure about that one at all.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

The only lock at this point in my mind is Visual EFX.

 

[zoukka]

repeating what someone said, you've got some strange freaking taste....smh

I'm deep like that :| But seriously the slow-mo put me off (in other parts as well) and it just felt like your generic final standout between the hero and the villain. It was also very unsatisfying that he

Spoiler

died to the arrows and not from Na'vi hands (another problem with the whole movie, too little human to Na'vi interaction).

But yeah seems to me this thread is approaching critical mass very soon. I might want to bail out before Bayroll here bans my ass :b

 

[Veidt]

Nope.

Mark my words. Yes it will.
What were the nominees again?

They include IB, Hurtlocker and Avatar. 33% chance right there.

 

[Combine]

I don't know about that. Biehn knows how to humanize and contribute some nuance to a role, as he did with Hicks on Aliens, which just a standard hardcore marine role until he came in. Lang was good at being a towering 100% badass cartoon character, but it's just that.

But that's the problem, we don't want Quaritch "humanized" he's supposed to be an "inhuman" caricature. If Biehn played the role like you want it to be, then he'd be playing the exact same role he played in The Abyss.

Spoiler

It was also very unsatisfying that he died to the arrows and not from Na'vi hands (another problem with the whole movie, too little human to Na'vi interaction)

.

Um, he was

Spoiler

directly responsible for the death of her father and the destruction of her home. She had far more justification to kill him than Jake (although he killed two of his friends

 

[Joel Was Right]

Star Trek and Avatar remind me of how awesome action films are. However, why can't have one of those with an equally amazing story?

 

[Count Dookkake]

I don't agree that Lang's performance is one note.

Underneath the barking, there is compassion and some humanity in his early scenes with Jake and the other recruits. Also, he doesn't resort to crazy theatrics when angered or disgusted. He is clearly a villain, but it is not as stereotyped as it could have been.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

The only lock at this point in my mind is Visual EFX.

Yup. I can see nominations. But wins are pretty unlikely.

I'd love a best actress nomination. I think had Zoe been live action she'd be under heavy consideration. But I can't see the Academy going there.

 

[StuBurns]

Best Actress is not even a nomination. Nope.

(And I think she deserves it)

It's some shameful backward thinking bullshit if she doesn't even get a nomination, true bullshit.

This type of thing is going to be a lot more common, the academy can't ignore it forever, I know they're typically slow to get on board, but it's such a stand out performance that I'll be really disappointed to see her shunned.