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[Rentahamster]

Yep. Didn't Grace say the connection between the roots was instant when they were observing them? Though they were right next to each other.

Here's a question, are the Na'vi just going to live and hang out at the tree of souls? Where are they going to hammock now?

The other Navi clans didn't have a hometree of their own, did they? Did the plains clan have a tree? I don't remember.

The other clans will probably help out somehow.

 

[elrechazado]

Heres the issue with all of your hypotheticals. They are based on assumptions, not anything tangible or real. Because it is a fantasy world concocted in the head of the creator. Therefore any hypothetical you come up with has as much weight as anything I have to counter it as long as its in the realm of the rules the creator laid out. And given how little the creator laid out, theres a lot of room for assumption.

You say they can nuke them? I say that the earth federation has advanced regulations on nukes and orbital missles and the corporation have no access to them. you say the can smuggle them. I say the government has advanced detection capabilities and that they would find the smuggled weapons and the corporation wouldnt risk it. now you could go back and forth and come up with some other assumption filled hypothetical.

Your answer is no more right than mine. But its an excercise in futility. They're all just built on assumption backed hypotheticals.

That's really really fascinating. Thanks for sharing that we were not the definitive source on the script, none of us knew that before. Here I thought we were posting some light hearted questions about what we view in our opinions, as inconsistencies in the movie. I feel so much better now.

 

[StuBurns]

I think the fact they are

Spoiler

'with Grace'

and they have access to

Spoiler

the RDA base

the culture could be greatly changed in the not so distant future.

EDIT: We're not spoiler tagging anymore? Thank God.

 

[Count Dookkake]

The other Navi clans didn't have a hometree of their own, did they? Did the plains clan have a tree? I don't remember.

The other clans will probably help out somehow.

There were a few other giant trees in some of the shots during that sequence.

I think the fact they are

Spoiler

'with Grace'

and they have access to

Spoiler

the RDA base

the culture could be greatly changed in the not so distant future.

Yes, there is a lot of potential for a not-so-comic take on "The Gods Must Be Crazy."

 

[Rentahamster]

Also, I imagine RDA is very interested in the tech applications of the trees.

Didn't seem like that to me. They didn't have a problem blowing away one of the biggest trees, and they were about to bomb one of the central nervous nodes of the tree network as well.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Didn't seem like that to me. They didn't have a problem blowing away one of the biggest trees, and they were about to bomb one of the central nervous nodes of the tree network as well.

Um, that was before they got their asses handed to them.

 

[Enosh]

One more thing - okay, these are "Sky People", right? What the hell are sky people doing fighting on the ground? Okay, okay, so the sky people get their asses kicked in the sky as well. Fine. Did the sky people suddenly forget that they're not just sky people, they're fucking SPACE people? To quote another Cameron movie, why don't they "nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure". If not nukes, use the frickin' ion cannon or orbital rail gun. Shit. It's not like Eywa can call upon her biological animals that somehow evolved to survive in a vacuum. They're not the Zerg.

it's a PMC

giving PMCs WMDs is a bad idea
it's a bad idea now to give blackwatter nuclear bombs and it'll be a bad idea 150 years from now to give a random PMC nukes

 

[Combine]

Um, that was before they got their asses handed to them.

Also the fact that Selfridge was clearly a small and simple-minded man with no grasp of things other than the money from Unobtainium. I'm sure if the RDA higher-ups knew about what Ewya could do (again, soul-transference), they'd totally be after that.

giving PMCs WMDs is a bad idea
it's a bad idea now to give blackwatter nuclear bombs and it'll be a bad idea 150 years from now to give a random PMC nukes

And again, if RDA was caught doing anything with WMD's, they'd lose their exclusivity contract for Pandora and other companies or governments would take over no doubt. They definitely wouldn't have wanted to take that risk.

 

[Jonm1010]

That's really really fascinating. Thanks for sharing that we were not the definitive source on the script, none of us knew that before. Here I thought we were posting some light hearted questions about what we view in our opinions, as inconsistencies in the movie. I feel so much better now.

Inconsistency would be showing 5 toes on the avatar in one scene and 4 for the rest of the movie. What the other poster is doing is making a bunch of silly assumption backed hypotheticals he thinks points out flaws in the movie but really doesnt.

 

[elrechazado]

Inconsistency would be showing 5 toes on the avatar in one scene and 4 for the rest of the movie. What the other poster is doing is making a bunch of silly assumption backed hypotheticals he thinks points out flaws in the movie but really doesnt.

Ok dude, nobody can ever find a flaw in the internal logic of a movie, because they didn't write the script. Gotcha.

 

[Rentahamster]

Heres the issue with all of your hypotheticals. They are based on assumptions, not anything tangible or real. Because it is a fantasy world concocted in the head of the creator. Therefore any hypothetical you come up with has as much weight as anything I have to counter it as long as its in the realm of the rules the creator laid out. And given how little the creator laid out, theres a lot of room for assumption.

I'm guessing you missed out on that 70-minute Phantom Menace review, huh?

You say they can nuke them? I say that the earth federation has advanced regulations on nukes and orbital missles and the corporation have no access to them. you say they can smuggle them. I say the government has advanced detection capabilities and that they would find the smuggled weapons and the corporation wouldnt risk it. now you could go back and forth and come up with some other assumption filled hypothetical to counter mine.

I say that a military strategist isn't very bright when he could have just shot missiles from space and not waste time or human lives.

 

[elrechazado]

Also the fact that Selfridge was clearly a small and simple-minded man with no grasp of things other than the money from Unobtainium. I'm sure if the RDA higher-ups knew about what Ewya could do (again, soul-transference), they'd totally be after that.

And again, if RDA was caught doing anything with WMD's, they'd lose their exclusivity contract for Pandora and other companies or governments would take over no doubt. They definitely wouldn't have wanted to take that risk.

Whereas committing genocide with conventional weapons is just fine.

:lol

 

[Combine]

Ok dude, nobody can ever find a flaw in the internal logic of a movie, because they didn't write the script. Gotcha.

Problem is these aren't flaws, just fantasies.

I say that a military strategist isn't very bright when he could have just shot missiles from space and not waste time or human lives.

Yeah, just keep ignoring the facts.

Get it through your head. RDA cannot use weapons in space or WMD's. They'd lose their contracts if they did so. They don't have the ability to shoot weapons from space! Do you see any goddamn weapon armaments on the ISV's?

 

[Rentahamster]

Um, that was before they got their asses handed to them.

Oh, so you mean they would be interested in the tech applications of the trees now that they know it played a large part in their defeat?

Possibly, if they didn't take Grace seriously the first time she talked about it.

 

[Sanjay]

Why were they still using guns in the future and the same bombs of today, oh wait because making even better firepower would destroy the film it self. Just like LOTR, why did they not just go with the eagles in the first place:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

 

[StuBurns]

Oh, so you mean they would be interested in the tech applications of the trees not that they know it played a large part in their defeat?

Possibly, if they didn't take Grace seriously the first time she talked about it.

One of the things I love in films is the 'bad guys' writing something off then being proven wrong at their lowest hour. My favorite moment in T2 is when the doc's needle cap falls out his mouth when he realizes Connor was right all along.

I gather once shit really hit the fan, they realized they were wrong, that's what I inferred anyway.

Why were they still using guns in the future and the same bombs of today, oh wait because making even better firepower would destroy the film it self. Just like LOTR, why did they not just go with the eagles in the first place:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

They have far newer more advanced weaponry in the Avatar world, however they're based on technologies that operate on earth, however due to the low gravity and flux they don't work correctly on Pandora, which is why they resort to old tech. That's Cameron's excuse anyway.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm guessing you missed out on that 70-minute Phantom Menace review, huh?


I say that a military strategist isn't very bright when he could have just shot missiles from space and not waste time or human lives.

Right and I counter by saying that its entirely possible they didnt have that ability due to restrictions by Earth's government on what weapons they can have. Or that their hubris blinded them into thinking that it was going to be a cake walk or that orbital missles risked damaging the minerals.

Your assumption or hypothetical is no more right than mine, we can continue this cycle forever and nothing will get accomplished. You will not be vindicated, i will not be vindicated, and it will have proved nothing.

 

[Timbuktu]

And again, if RDA was caught doing anything with WMD's, they'd lose their exclusivity contract for Pandora and other companies or governments would take over no doubt. They definitely wouldn't have wanted to take that risk.

I've only seen the movie once, but I remember the Colonel mentioning that he knows Sully fought in Venezuela so I assume Earth is still very much a planet of nations. I don't know how that ties up with the RDA exclusivity thing, if it is just an American thing or not. if unobtanium is an important resource, I can't see there not be other entities at least wanting to get their hands on it.

 

[Combine]

I've only seen the movie once, but I remember the Colonel mentioning that he knows Sully fought in Venezuela so I assume Earth is still very much a planet of nations. I don't know how that ties up with the RDA exclusivity thing, if it is just an American thing or not. if unobtanium is an important resource, I can't see there not be other entities at least wanting to get their hands on it.

Again, from the Pandorapedia (I love this thing):

The Resources Development Administration (RDA) has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived or developed from Pandora and any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

 

[Quincey]

just saw it last night in imax 3d. really loved, far more than i expected too. So much imagination and really made me feel like a kid again. I have not been so immersed for 2 1/2 hours in as long as i can remember. Imax 3d kinda gave me a headache from my eyes trying to focus. I am going to see it again next week with my girlfriend and i think we are gunna go see it in just real 3d. i am curious as too what the differences are. either way, i cant wait to see it again, and that is extremely rare for me.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Oh, so you mean they would be interested in the tech applications of the trees now that they know it played a large part in their defeat?

Yes, this is what I mean. As he walks away, Selfridge has a strange look on his face. It may be remorse, it may be grudging admiration, but it may also be his best poker face as he dreams of the value of those trees.

Possibly, if they didn't take Grace seriously the first time she talked about it.

Not sure what you mean here. Selfridge clearly did not take her seriously as he said something about "you can't throw a stick without hitting some sacred... fern."

 

[PhoncipleBone]

I say that a military strategist isn't very bright when he could have just shot missiles from space and not waste time or human lives.

Was it ever said that they had orbital weapons or a military ship in space at all? All I ever saw was the main cruiser bringing supplies and recruits. Then the shuttle detached, which was later used for the bombing run.

And as others have pointed out, using orbital weapons or WMDs could seriously damage the unobtainium.

Also, hometree was on the biggest deposit of the mineral, so taking it down at the ground level meant that they destroyed a bare minimum of the unobtainium. Blasting any weapon from orbit would probably destroy untold millions (or billions) of the mineral, where they lost no lives at the strike of hometree. They only lost lives when they went after the Tree of Souls.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Whereas committing genocide with conventional weapons is just fine.

:lol

Why do you keep touting the word genocide?

Was the attack on the twin towers genocide?

No.

They simply destroyed the tree, killed a few Na'Vi, and was going to leave it at that. There were thousands of Na'Vi on the planet (or atleast in a few hundred mile radius) and different tribes not in the tree area that were going to be left alone. It's when the humans saw forces gathering to fight and they had/chose to fight back. That's called War.

 

[Rentahamster]

Get it through your head. RDA cannot use weapons in space or WMD's. They'd lose their contracts if they did so.

These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

Limits, not prohibits. The RDA have other spaceships besides the ISVs. They can fit weapons platforms on one of those. Or how about - just use the vehicles they have now and fly to an altitude higher than the Banshees can reach.

Or maybe - use a land based artillery rail guns.

 

[ymmv]

Avatar has lost its crown ... The wednesday box office results are in:

1 - ALVIN AND THE CHIPMUNKS: THE SQUEAKQUEL - $18,801,277
2 - AVATAR - $16,445,291

Of course Avatar has a much longer running time and is shown on (slightly) fewer screens. Nevertheless, the good ship Avatar is holding its course. The wordlwide gross is now $381,630,006 in less than 1(!) week.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Again, from the Pandorapedia (I love this thing):
he Resources Development Administration (RDA) has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived or developed from Pandora and any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

Thank you. Solves all hypotheticals.

 

[Combine]

The RDA have other spaceships besides the ISVs. They can fit weapons platforms on one of those.

Please cite the source for this. The ISV's are the only ships that can travel back and forth between Earth and Pandora, and the Valkyries are the only shuttles. Hell, the Valkyrie had to be retrofitted just to become a makeshift bomber (and a pretty poor excuse for one at that ).

Or how about - just use the vehicles they have now and fly to an altitude higher than the Banshees can reach.

And how would you know how high these vehicles can fly?

Or maybe - use a land based artillery rail guns.

Why do you keep bringing this weapon up as if it exists in the movie? I never saw it

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Avatar has lost its crown ... The wednesday box office results are in:

1 - ALVIN AND THE CHIPMUNKS: THE SQUEAKQUEL - $18,801,277
2 - AVATAR - $16,445,291

Of course Avatar has a much longer running time and is shown on (slightly) fewer screens. Nevertheless, the good ship Avatar is holding its course. The wordlwide gross is now $381,630,006 in less than 1(!) week.

But if you notice, Avatar was the only film besides Up in the Air (which expanded BIG TIME) to have an increase over the tuesday number. That is impressive. And that is opening day for Alvin. It will bow big, then fade fast.

I am just in awe at how well Avatar is doing during the weekdays.

 

[Timbuktu]

Again, from the Pandorapedia (I love this thing):

Good stuff, but I wondered what Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA) is if there are still wars on Earth. The Earth they hinted at seem to be too complicated a place politically to ever be elaborated about. So I hope if they have sequels, they can keep it vague and relatively subjective.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Thank you. Solves all hypotheticals.

These people need to go to a politics thread and ask why Americans or mercenaries didn't just nuke Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent fighting for multiple years. Maybe then they'll understand the concept of laws after learning from a real life example.

 

[Jonm1010]

Again, from the Pandorapedia (I love this thing):

Alright, i guess one of my hypotheticals was vindicated. No nukes from orbit and no super weapons from space because of restrictions.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I found this more interesting from Pandorapedia:

With the help of psionic amplification, and thanks to customized reception nodes grown into avatar brains from their earliest blastomere stage of development, human drivers can now operate their avatars at distances of tens of kilometers.

Lucky those other Na'vi tribes were close. I wonder what is on the other side of the planet.

 

[Rentahamster]

Please cite the source for this. The ISV's are the only ships that can travel back and forth between Earth and Pandora, and the Valkyries are the only shuttles. Hell, the Valkyrie had to be retrofitted just to become a makeshift bomber.

And how would you know how high these vehicles can fly?

The RDA have ships that can fly high enough to transport people and supplies back and forth from the ISV.

Quaritch's master plan is to drop a bomb on the Tree of Souls? Okay, drop it from a higher altitude from where the Navi can't reach you.

Why do you keep bringing this weapon up as if it exists in the movie? I never saw it

It wasn't mentioned in the movie, but it's a plausible option if we assume that the future humans in this movie are based on the present day real life humans.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

I found this more interesting from Pandorapedia:


Lucky those other Na'vi tribes were close. I wonder what is on the other side of the planet.

Good point. Perhaps Jake stuck closer to his body when rallying troops and sent others to get other tribes. And perhaps they just stuck to the same continent when rallying.

And who knows, maybe Trudy just flew the base station around with them just for shits and giggles.

Still interesting to know how far they can control from.

 

[Rentahamster]

Alright, i guess one of my hypotheticals was vindicated. No nukes from orbit and no super weapons from space because of restrictions.

Taking Quaritch's brilliant plan and adding another mile of altitude does not a "super weapon in space" make.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

The RDA have ships that can fly high enough to transport people and supplies back and forth from the ISV.

Quaritch's master plan is to drop a bomb on the Tree of Souls? Okay, drop it from a higher altitude from where the Navi can't reach you.


It wasn't mentioned in the movie, but it's a plausible option if we assume that the future humans in this movie are based on the present day real life humans.

Hallelujah Mountains were in the way, remember? Cant really target very well with constantly moving mountains floating in the sky above your target. That is why they had to fly so low and actually have visible confirmation of the target. And when Jake and the others took off on their Banshees, they were much higher than the Dragon or Valkyrie, which means the mountains were that much higher than the Tree of Souls.

 

[Rentahamster]

Good point. Perhaps Jake stuck closer to his body when rallying troops and sent others to get other tribes. And perhaps they just stuck to the same continent when rallying.

And who knows, maybe Trudy just flew the base station around with them just for shits and giggles.

Still interesting to know how far they can control from.

That was another thing that I thought about. The flux screws up flight nav and other electronic targeting capabilities, but it has absolutely no effect on the transmission of avatar brain signals? Okay.

 

[Rentahamster]

Hallelujah Mountains were in the way, remember? Cant really target very well with constantly moving mountains floating in the sky above your target. That is why they had to fly so low and actually have visible confirmation of the target. And when Jake and the others took off on their Banshees, they were much higher than the Dragon or Valkyrie, which means the mountains were that much higher than the Tree of Souls.

So then blow up the mountains.

Speaking of the mountains, I guess it must have been prohibitively difficult to harvest the mountains themselves (since they are made out of Unobtainium, right? That's how they float, right?).

 

[artist]

That was another thing that I thought about. The flux screws up flight nav and other electronic targeting capabilities, but it has absolutely no effect on the transmission of avatar brain signals? Okay.

:lol

Folks we have a joke character in this thread now.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

So then blow up the mountains.

Speaking of the mountains, I guess it must have been prohibitively difficult to harvest the mountains themselves (since they are made out of Unobtainium, right? That's how they float, right?).

They never explicitly say what the mountains are made of, but that is the assumption that I made. The mountains and the ground are made of unobtainium, and the magnetic field between them causes them to float.

Anything on Pandorapedia about that?

 

[StuBurns]

So then blow up the mountains.

Speaking of the mountains, I guess it must have been prohibitively difficult to harvest the mountains themselves (since they are made out of Unobtainium, right? That's how they float, right?).

I love this post. Blow up the massive supply of the mineral you're here for. They need smart people like you in the military.

 

[Count Dookkake]

'Copernicus' has updated his scientific plausibility review of Avatar over at AICN.

He pretty much removed all his complaints after doing more research. :lol

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43440

He addresses the floating mountains, btw.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

The Hallelujah Mountains are floating islands that circulate slowly in the magnetic currents like icebergs at sea, scraping against each other and the towering mesa-like mountains of the region. On Pandora, the magnetic effect causes huge outcroppings of Unobtainium to rip loose from the surface and float in the magnetic vortices.
The Pandorans call them the Thundering Rocks, and the entire area is sacred to them. This poses a problem for the humans who have come to mine them for their mineral wealth. The mountains float like clouds among the fixed mountains and swirling cloud structures. When they are in clear sunlight they cast distinct shadows on the land below.
They are overgrown with foliage at the top, and straggly beards of vines hangs down beneath them like the roots of air-ferns. Their sides are sheer cliffs. Waterfalls, originating on the mesa-like tops, stream down the sides and disperse into spray at the bottoms, like upside-down geysers. The local peaks and mesas actually project above the level of the craggy undersides of the few floating mountains Jake Sully can see, so it's obvious that collisions are inevitable. It is also the place Norm Spellman wants to visit most on Pandora.
The Hallelujah Mountains are also where Mountain Banshees choose to roost. This location makes the final challenge on the path to becoming a Na'vi hunter even more difficult and dangerous as the route taken to the top of the mountains are treacherous. One wrong move will send a candidate plummeting to their death.

From http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Hallelujah_Mountains . Has much more info than I found on Pandorapedia. (But after clicking around Pandorapedia, I notice its the offical site. I trust it a bit more now. )

 

[StuBurns]

'Copernicus' has updated his scientific plausibility review of Avatar over at AICN.

He pretty much removed all his complaints after doing more research. :lol

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43440

He addresses the floating mountains, btw.

Dude eat more crow than most of GAF.

 

[Enosh]

Why do you keep touting the word genocide?

Was the attack on the twin towers genocide?

No.

They simply destroyed the tree, killed a few Na'Vi, and was going to leave it at that. There were thousands of Na'Vi on the planet (or atleast in a few hundred mile radius) and different tribes not in the tree area that were going to be left alone. It's when the humans saw forces gathering to fight and they had/chose to fight back. That's called War.

true, genocide is the intend to destroy a race/etnic group/culture, the humans had no such intend

forcefull relocation might be the better term for what is happening in the movie

 

[Count Dookkake]

Dude eat more crow than most of GAF.

'Copernicus' is a gentleman, though. Even when he was initially bringing up complaints he proposed possible solutions and said he was open to correction.

 

[StuBurns]

'Copernicus' is a gentleman, though. Even when he was initially bringing up complaints he proposed possible solutions and said he was open to correction.

As did GAFfers, not a knock on him as such. Although he could have poked around for sources before posting the initial article. It's a cool read. I actually thought the waterfall on the mountains was a little silly, apparently not. Thinking about it right now, assuming the water is basically the same as on earth, with the lower gravity it'd fall slower and appear more than it would be on earth.

 

[Rentahamster]

'Copernicus' has updated his scientific plausibility review of Avatar over at AICN.

He pretty much removed all his complaints after doing more research. :lol

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43440

He addresses the floating mountains, btw.

Neato. Reading now.

I love this post. Blow up the massive supply of the mineral you're here for. They need smart people like you in the military.

The massive supply they were here for was underneath hometree. The mountains are just an inconvenience and an acceptable loss. If it was so viable as a mining source they would have been mining it already.

As did GAFfers, not a knock on him as such. Although he could have poked around for sources before posting the initial article. It's a cool read. I actually thought the waterfall on the mountains was a little silly, apparently not. Thinking about it right now, assuming the water is basically the same as on earth, with the lower gravity it'd fall slower and appear more than it would be on earth.

Precipitation would be normal, with all the fog and stuff. Streams form, and fall just like on regular mountains.

 

[Zeliard]

'Copernicus' has updated his scientific plausibility review of Avatar over at AICN.

He pretty much removed all his complaints after doing more research. :lol

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43440

He addresses the floating mountains, btw.

This is a pretty damn cool read.

To take this a step farther, I would have loved to see a scene where a character sees beautiful colors or patterns as an Avatar, only to have this beauty evaporate into a uniform sea of blue when he sees the same vista with human eyes.

That would have been spectacular.

 

[StuBurns]

The massive supply they were here for was underneath hometree. The mountains are just an inconvenience and an acceptable loss. If it was so viable as a mining source they would have been mining it already.

No, they're here for the mineral, not the specific deposit under home tree, that's just the one they focus on during the movie and is the richest deposit near the base. They've been mining Pandora for long before the film starts.

hat would have been spectacular.

Yeah, reading the scriptment, Cameron did describe what the Na'vi see as appose to humans, and I was thinking it'd be cool to see it, but I'm not sure how he'd do it, a first person perspective and then have the rest of the film be the camera as having human style vision? Maybe with the sequel. Pandora's air smells of cinnamon, there's no way to really show that, but that's the kind of awesome little details he thought about and documented.