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[cireza]

I'm sorry most of your complain about SMT/Persona combat is less about being "poor design" and more about you personally not liking them.

These spells are rendered useless if there is even a single enemy that is going to absorb or reflect the damage. As hitting weak spots always grant you one more turn, it is in your interest to keep an Agi spell that will always work rather than a Maragi spell that won't work if there is an enemy that is resistant to it.

I find that these games have pretty bad mechanics overall (level-design as well is pretty bad in P4G by the way), this is by definition my opinion, not an absolute truth.

 

[Danjin44]

These spells are rendered useless if there is even a single enemy that is going to absorb or reflect the damage. As hitting weak spots always grant you one more turn, it is in your interest to keep an Agi spell that will always work rather than a Maragi spell that won't work if there is an enemy that is resistant to it.

Take Madarame boss in Persona 5 for example: in that boss the two eyes and the nose parts of the boss can take physical damage but the mouth absorb physical damage but you are encouraged to use skill like "Rampage" any way because that way you kill 3 parts faster then later go after the mouth.

Also not all SMT is about giving you extra turn for exploiting the weakness, in Strange Journey other Demons on your party that have same alignment will join the attack and SMTIV/A will give you Smirk that increase your stats by 60%.

 

[OmaeWaMouShindiggity]

XP Share.

Hate wanting to try new characters in my party but I don't because my main party is way over leveled compared to everyone else. Really limits my flexibility and desire to try new combos.

 

[Psychostar]

I'm glad FFX is seeing a lot of love in the posts here. The first thing that came to mind for this post for me was also an FFX feature. I absolutely loved the sphere grid, and wish we saw more of that.

FFXV did an okay job with it, and perhaps SSBU's world of light campaign has an alright sphere grid system but FFX's sphere-grid is hands down one of the most satisfying RPG elements in gaming I have come across. It made the initial stages of discovering each hero's perks and benefits of investing in really fun , and allowed for so much customization toward the end when you knew exactly what you wanted your characters to branch into.

 

[Saber]

Combined attacks like in Chrono Trigger:
It's cool on a conceptual and visual level, and adds an additional layer of strategy to your party setup. Playing it back then I really thought it would be something that we'd see in tons of JRPG's moving forward

Over 20 years later and it's still not much of a thing

Dragon Quest XI has combined attacks in form of Pep powers, so yeah I agree.

 

[infinitys_7th]

This is a good example of bad design in these games. You actually never use slots for "global" spells as enemies are mixed which make them rarely practical. I verified this in Strange Journey, P4G and Tokyo Mirage...

FFX offers great variety as you have Kimahri who is basically your joker character, and you can decide to do the game in numerous ways. A friend made a run where he was only using Rikku's ability to mix and throw stuff, and had Kimahri built the same way.

I haven't played TMS, but every SMT game with Press Turn, SJ, and P3 make hit-all spells more MP efficient and reward you if you know enemy weaknesses and resistances. Late-game teams tend to be mixed because you are supposed to have almighty spells by then for nuking, along with Pierce and heavy physical attacks.

P4 has a much weaker version of Press Turn versus actual Press Turn games, P3 (immediate knock down), and SJ (alignment co-op) which IMO hurts the game dramatically. Attacking weaknesses causing dizzy before knocking down slows down the pace dramatically, and turn order can make it pointless a good chunk of the time, especially once teams with mixed weaknesses and resistances come up late game. They had Naoto with almighty spells to try to counter this, but she sucks.

You can do special challenges in any game. FFX has those options, and while it does a better job of making status effects and buffs more useful than FF games before it, they are still not strong enough for their use to increase the speed of regular battles. Mix requires your OD bar being full, which is probably why your friend had Khimahri doing it as well so that Rikku and him could switch off while the other builds OD with a strategic mode. It also requires setup, so they will have to steal and hoard items to get to where they can use it effectively.

 

[RokkanStoned]

To add something that's not really battle system: the ability to break down doors, hack doors, magically open or pick the door. The three latter aren't as unusual in WRPGs, but the former is something that's so needed, because it's otherwise ridiculous. Daggerfall does it, allowing you just break open most of the doors that aren't reinforced in some way.

I just wish there was a way to avoid combat all together, some RPGs provide items and abilities that lower encounter rate but don't eliminate it 100% (repel in Pokémon games does if your primary Pokémon is high enough level).

Or I'd say, even more so, the ability to conclude battles in multiple ways or otherwise avoid them or finish off without a fight. Currently there's like 3-4 ways of ending battles. Killing the enemy, capturing them (Pokemon, FFVIII, etc.), you running away and you dying. Being able to find different solutions to encounters is something that I'd love to see, but it's obviously way too heavy in terms of effort to design.
There are aspects of this in a lot of RPGs. You have talking/negotiations/act in SMT and Undertale. You have use of various environmental factors to avoid encounters (even in FFVII with the barrels in the church). You have quests deciding whether you'll fight someone or not, which honestly more could be done with, like affinity and otherwise. You also have enemies sometimes running away themselves, though that's not as common and usually specific enemies.
An honestly ambitious JRPG should attempt at giving attributes to different enemies in terms of which actions are possible. Perhaps running away from a wild animal is very dangerous or impossible, thus other options, such as trapping or using someone as a decoy or throwing bait should be options. Perhaps having a specific animal in your party would change it, depending on its affinity, whether positive or negative/fear. Perhaps a specific item wards them off or knocks them out. It's definitely an area I feel like more could be done.

 

[Arkam]

The Gambit system in FFXII i something I would like to see more often.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

RokkanStoned SMT series had some cool ideas there that allow players to bribe the demon (which may include them joining the player's side), talk to them, and so forth.

 

[GeorgPrime]

After iam done with our company and i dont have to work there personally anymore.... i would like to create something like Suikoden 2.

But High Quality Sprites, a modern enginet and some stuff to increase QoL aspects of the game if you want to

 

[Bakkus]

I just wish there was a way to avoid combat all together, some RPGs provide items and abilities that lower encounter rate but don't eliminate it 100% (repel in Pokémon games does if your primary Pokémon is high enough level).

I agree with this (although your Pokemon example only counts ifall the potential Pokemon you could meet in that area are lower level than your main)

 

[mcz117chief]

I agree with this (although your Pokemon example only counts ifall the potential Pokemon you could meet in that area are lower level than your main)

That is what I said.

 

[Trojita]

This is non-battle system related.

As mentioned, dialogue boxes that let me know if I talked to someone already and if they have anything new to say.

Going along with that, games that have updated dialogue through places you've already visited that reflect changes in the plot or time that has passed is pretty cool.

Also more mechas

 

[brian0057]

• The dialog boss fights from Deus Ex: Human Revolution/Mankind Divided.
• The entirety of Daggerfall.

 

[Barnabot]

Parasite Eve 2 and Third Birthday could be a better game if they keep that system imo.

 

[drganon]

There are so many videogame RPGs over the past 40 years that nothing is "standard" anymore, but I do wish certain things were included (where applicable):

- Exploit weaknesses / press your luck for extra turns. The Shin Megami Tensei (and Persona) games knock down opponents and/or give players an extra turn if they attack the weak element of the target. Bravely Default lets you borrow turns from the future with the penalty that your opponents get several turns in a row. Basically any mechanic that rewards players with extra turns / quicker battles is neat.

- Real-time button presses to extend a combo or guarantee a critical. The chain of Super Mario RPGs all use a mechanic that rewards well-timed button presses with an extra hit or a critical. Not every RPG needs the same kind of minigame Special moves like in the M&L games, but even a simple reward for timing is much appreciated.

What else should be standard but isn't?

The persona exploit weakness system/ all out attack mechanic is pretty awesome. It's part of the reason I ended up becoming such a big fan of the series.

 

[Griffon]

Just rebalance the games to have much less battle frequencies (like 2x to 10x less). That's all I need.

The only battles that really matters are the bosses, doing the same fodders over and over again is a waste of time.

 

[dave_d]

I always liked the Earthbound battle skip mechanic. If you were way more powerful than the enemy in a section it wouldn't bother doing the battle sequence. You'd just automatically get the rewards without having to go to those scenes and wasting time. I wish more games would copy that and non-random battles.

 

[darth.shrimp]

Some Neptunia games - at least Re;birth2 and 3 - have an interesting (if very abusable late-game) system where you can somewhat "manipulate" your opponent's turn; some of your attacks will delay their target's next action, and with the right setup you can prevent pretty much any enemy, even bosses, from ever attacking.
Of course, to reach that point, you need to heavily optimize your team. Only a few characters have access to those attacks, and they are usually their strongest moves, that delay their own next action more than basic attacks, so you'll have to give these characters equipment that reduces that delay, and have them reach a high-enough affection level with other characters with a support abiity that also reduces that delay, and then you'll have to have some way to recharge your special gauge every turn (which is done differently in both games).

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I always liked the Earthbound battle skip mechanic. If you were way more powerful than the enemy in a section it wouldn't bother doing the battle sequence. You'd just automatically get the rewards without having to go to those scenes and wasting time. I wish more games would copy that and non-random battles.

Yeah the auto-win was great. I also liked the scrolling health which allowed a quick player to finish the battle or heal before the character was fully killed by an attack (this was very abusable in late game).

 

[KàIRóS]

Wow somehow I missed this thread until today, anyway after reading through all the posts I feel like everyone really needs to stop ignoring the Trails/Kiseki series and play those games ASAP most of the mechanics you all mentioned are in those games:

Weakness system, check.
Follow up and all-out attacks like in the SMT Press Turn Battle System, check.
Timed button presses like FFVIII, Shadow Hearts, Legend of Dragoon, etc, check. (the timing is way longer so a player will rarely miss but it's still possible to miss)
Changing party members mid-battle like FFX or Persona 5, check,
Combined attacks like Chrono Trigger or Tales of Xillia, check.
Free movement and positioning in battle like in SRPGs, check.
Bonus rewards for finishing the battle more intelligently like VP2, or Tales, check.
Waiting turns in order to release a more powerful attack like in Bravely Default or Octopath Traveler, check.
Break status in which enemies receive more damage like in Octopath Traveler or Xenosaga 3, check.
Bosses can be affected with status ailments unlike most other JRPGs, check.
Delaying and cancelling turns like in Grandia or Hyperdimension Neptunia, check.
Skip battle if your level is significantly higher than enemies like in Earthbound or DBZ: Kakarot, check.
Reclassing characters like in FFX or FFXII, check (it is more limited but you can still turn an attacking character into a healer for example).
Bonus:
Mecha battles like Xenoseries, check.
Transformations like in Breath of fire or Megaman X Command Mission, check.
Ultimate attacks like FF Overlimits or Tales Mystic Artes/Hi Ougis, check.

Sounds like a dream game? well it's not, the last game in the series (Sen no Kiseki IV) offers one of the best turn based battle systems ever made and a lot of players are still sleeping on these games, I don't know why.

Here are some things I would like to see more:

Dressphere mid battle job changes from FFX-2
Enchanted Arms take on monster catching
Enemy line system from Radiant Historia
Timeline turns from Caligula Effect Overdose and apparently John Wick Hex? i haven't played that but it looks very similar
Weapon Skill learning from FFIX/Growlanser series
Individual party member battle mechanics from FFVI
Party members fusion from Tales of Zestiria
Steal/learn enemy ability from Breath of Fire IV/Brave Fencer Musashi
Directional input attacks from Legend of Legaia/Indivisible
Affection system that also affects battle from Persona/Fire Emblem/Trails
Weapon synthesis and build up from Dark Cloud 1 & 2
Leveling system from SaGa/The Last Remnant
The entire battle sytem from Megaman Battle Network series

Oh and there was a lot of talk about timed button presses, I personally like the Lost Odyssey ring system the most.

 

[Exentryk]

I feel like everyone really needs to stop ignoring the Trails/Kiseki series

I tried the very first Kiseki and the combat system was so dull and boring I gave up. The thing with that list above is that not everyone likes all of those things together (eg. timed button presses or positioning, in my case). If the recent entries have improved the combat, I can give it a try but this series is a story continuation right? So I'd prefer not to skip the first entries, which seem awful to play.

 

[Katsura]

I tried the very first Kiseki and the combat system was so dull and boring I gave up. The thing with that list above is that not everyone likes all of those things together (eg. timed button presses or positioning, in my case). If the recent entries have improved the combat, I can give it a try but this series is a story continuation right? So I'd prefer not to skip the first entries, which seem awful to play.

You can jump in at Trails of Cold Steel 1. You'll miss some nods here and there but nothing major and you'll get right to the good combat

 

[OmaeWaMouShindiggity]

Or I'd say, even more so, the ability to conclude battles in multiple ways or otherwise avoid them or finish off without a fight. Currently there's like 3-4 ways of ending battles. Killing the enemy, capturing them (Pokemon, FFVIII, etc.), you running away and you dying. Being able to find different solutions to encounters is something that I'd love to see, but it's obviously way too heavy in terms of effort to design.

I think the Mass effect series did a really good job on this type of system especially concerning the limitations at the time.

 

[BlackProdigy]

Baten Kaitos

 

[Doom85]

I feel like everyone really needs to stop ignoring the Trails/Kiseki series and play those games ASAP

It's usually a time commitment issue, at least for me. If I started the Cold Steel series, I'd want to play through all available entries as close together as possible, and that's a 300+ hour commitment (400 more likely as 4 will likely be available by the time I get to the games). That's not to be taken lightly, nor do I want to not be able to play new games I'm hyped for and want to give my full attention to if I'm smack dab in the middle of such a long game series.

That being said, I do hope to start the Cold Steel series* in the later half of this year. I've been playing JRPG catch-up, got through Dragon Quest XI all last month and half of this one (having a week vacation each month helped), and am now 20 hours into Tales of Zestiria as I wanted to get through it and Berseria before Arise comes out (I know they're most likely not in the same continuity as Arise will be, but I still want to play them in order if I can). I should hopefully finish Zestiria by the time the triple whammy of Resident Evil 3, Final Fantasy 7, and Last of Us Part 2 come out. After that, there's games later in the year I'm excited for but willing to wait to play, and especially as I never upgrade to new systems until they've been out for a year. So I'll go through Tales of Berseria and after that start Cold Steel 1.

*I know many will recommend playing the prior franchise games before Cold Steel 1 as apparently CS 3 has a lot of call-backs and connections to the pre-CS games, but I have to draw a line somewhere. I'm already diving in to 300-400 hours, asking for a good deal more than that is just beyond even me who normally would play each entry in order. I'm not saying I won't ever play those games, but just not now and besides if I do play them I can then think back on the CS games and appreciate certain elements even more.

 

[autoduelist]

I probably should make a separate thread, and maybe i will if no one sees this...

I am looking for suggestions. I have come to realize I really like one extremely rare combat system -

I like formation based tactics.

For example, in Soul Nomad, you had multiple armies. Each 'army' had up to 9 positions, and the way you positioned troops mattered. A mage might use different skills in middle vs back row, for example. Over the course of the game, you acquired new units, more armies, different formational grids with various bonuses.

Setting up an army... notice bottom right how they perform different front/middle/rear.

Gameplay was done on an overmap, where each army was represented by its leader. Move on top of an enemy, and it zoomed in and the two sets of units fought. Iirc fighting was automatic - each unit in each army took an action [maybe 3 rounds?]. An army could be killed, or simply lose some hp, or members.

Because formations affected combat, and fighting was automatic, it was all about designing great armies that worked cohesively together, as well as, say, using one army with strong healing power to weaken a strong enemy, then finishing it off with another strong army.

The game wasn't perfect... but boy does it scratch a certain itch.

Does anyone have any other suggestions like this [ps anything, 3ds, android].

Basically, I want a lot of the tactics baked in before the battle. Formation, orders, whatever. Less input once combat is engaged.

 

[Exentryk]

^ Final Fantasy 12 is similar in that you set up your team before the battle and then they take care of the fight automatically. But I'm sure you are already aware of it.

 

[LemmingWithaParachute]

Almost 20 years of real time combat garbage and over the shoulder third person wankery and yet Im told that turn based combat is over done at the same time everyone is rebuying the older FF games, Chrono Trigger on mobile, Steam and Nintendo platforms and begging for HD remakes of the aforementioned.

Excluding the RTS genre, only one of these 3 things allows for real strategy.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

autoduelist the two that come to mind are

Bahamut Lagoon (SNES) - players arrange up to six squads of four characters each + the dragons which act as a solo unit
The Last Remnant - multiple squads participate in the battle, each with their own unit composition

Soul Nomad and The World Eater is pretty unique, though. The Disgaea games kinda stole the unit-formation idea and added it to their school/lair/world-map menu where you can arrange all your units on a grid and they get/give bonuses to adjacent units.

 

[LordKasual]

JRPGs in general are really dumb with Status Effects.

They're almost solely for use against players, rarely ever useful against enemies and never against bosses.

 

[TacosNSalsa]

Xenogears had fun , simple combo moves that you could store up and unleash for some pretty damn good damage. Remember trying to store up as many as I could for all my team so I could just destroy just about anything in front of me in one turn

 

[Carna]

Panzer Dragoon Saga - being able to dodge enemy attacks depending on your position,

Phantasy Star - dodging enemy attacks when you reach a higher level

Kingdom Hearts series - blocking and parrying in a action jrpg

 

[autoduelist]

autoduelist the two that come to mind are

Bahamut Lagoon (SNES) - players arrange up to six squads of four characters each + the dragons which act as a solo unit
The Last Remnant - multiple squads participate in the battle, each with their own unit composition

Soul Nomad and The World Eater is pretty unique, though. The Disgaea games kinda stole the unit-formation idea and added it to their school/lair/world-map menu where you can arrange all your units on a grid and they get/give bonuses to adjacent units.

Awesome recommendations. I think i have The Last Remnant wishlisted on some platform or another, but all my wishlists have 100s of games so... but now I'll seek it out and pick it up.

And i guess i need to figure out emu again for bahamut lagoon. Sounds really interesting.

And of course it doesn't have to be exactly like Soul Nomad... I wish more games just had the tactics level pushed out a level to formation/ tactics. Too often games are reduced to rote combat [attack attack heal], or 'equip weapon of highest stat x'. Ffxiii's system wasn't perfect, but i liked how they tried to let the ai do the obvious and lifted tactics up a notch.

Thanks again!

 

[CitizenX3639]

I dont understand this thread. Everything you bring up from yesteryear is basically a staple in CRPGs from way back when to today. i dont know if it is a lot of you dont play CRPGs or just dont play newer titles.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I dont understand this thread. Everything you bring up from yesteryear is basically a staple in CRPGs from way back when to today. i dont know if it is a lot of you dont play CRPGs or just dont play newer titles.

Which ones come to mind?

 

[CitizenX3639]

Which ones come to mind?

The stuff about combos, formations have been in CRPGs since i have been playing them Divinity series, Shadowrun series, Pillars are recent titles that are built around those combat features. Heck, even in card/deck building games like Darkest Dungeons its all about that 2 concepts. And i saw the one about button presses, that could be every jap action game from bayonet, DMC, to Darksiders to name just a few.

 

[Ascend]

Lost Odyssey required you to time your attacks, the better the timing the higher the damage.

 

[Zog]

Too many games allow grinding to undermine their battle system. That is, rather than explore the battle system, people seem to often attack attack attack heal lowerlings til they are strong enough to aaah the boss. Die? Go grind some more.

So instead of 2 ways to play, there is one?

 

[autoduelist]

The stuff about combos, formations have been in CRPGs since i have been playing them Divinity series, Shadowrun series, Pillars are recent titles that are built around those combat features. Heck, even in card/deck building games like Darkest Dungeons its all about that 2 concepts. And i saw the one about button presses, that could be every jap action game from bayonet, DMC, to Darksiders to name just a few.

I think it's because you are oversimplifying what people are saying they like.

For example, when I talk about formations, and use Soul Nomad with screen shots as an example, I am not talking about Darkest Dungeon's 'front/middle/back'? I mean, sure, I've been putting tanks in front of mages for decades... which is why I thought it was clear that is not the formational tactics I was talking about [or at least, so simplified that it's a non-feature...]

Though I'm not sure why you called Darkest dungeons a card/deckbuilding game, so maybe you meant something else.

Or if I'm talking about Natural Doctrine's flanking system, another game in which you get a 10% attack bonus for having another unit next to the enemy is clearly not the same thing.

Same with combos. Sure, even assassin's creed has 'combos' where if you hit the same button 4 times you get different moves. And a couple rpgs have combos where, say, if you freeze an enemy they are more susceptible to fire. But not many turn based RPGs have complex movesets hidden behind combos. For example, a head hit you can only select if first you feint, then you belly hit, then you can do a soecial move and head hit.

 

[autoduelist]

So instead of 2 ways to play, there is one?

Not really. A badly designed game can have all the systems in the world not matter.

For example, Conception 2 has a ton of incredible sounding systems.

In theory, this game has much of what i ask for. You have multiple squad leaders, each with changeable henchman. You even have a sort of combo system, an overchain system... seriously, this game has like 10 cool sounding systems.

But when you play it? Enemies are so weak you can essentially attack/attack/attack through the game, completely ignoring many of the systems. The games difficulty never catches up with your characters.

So i mean, sure, this is 'two ways to play'... but really, it's just bad balance. And if a game does provide elaborate systems, but no reason to explore them, that is bad game design. Imagine coding the most robust crafting system ever in a game, then providing a merchant that sells even better versions of everything cheaper and easier... that's two ways to get a power sword, but one way is only for idiots.

If a game makes frosty the snowman the boss of the first dungeon, it's better the game teaches players you are supposed to light a torch before fighting him for an easy kill then have players grind killing level 1 rats for 10 hours to level up. '2 ways to play' is not always good game design. If your game design is centered around grinding, then it should be designed around it, like Disgaea. That is not the same as using grinding as a workaround to actual game systems.

 

[Spukc]

breath of fire 2 fusing
golden sun djins
lufia 2 rare drops
final fantasy 5 hybrid jub system

DONE

 

[autoduelist]

autoduelist the two that come to mind are

Bahamut Lagoon (SNES) - players arrange up to six squads of four characters each + the dragons which act as a solo unit
The Last Remnant - multiple squads participate in the battle, each with their own unit composition

Soul Nomad and The World Eater is pretty unique, though. The Disgaea games kinda stole the unit-formation idea and added it to their school/lair/world-map menu where you can arrange all your units on a grid and they get/give bonuses to adjacent units.

The Last Remnant was a fantastic recommendation... any more?

 

[Rat Rage]

What else should be standard but isn't?

Nothing. I don't want my games to be all the same.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

The Last Remnant was a fantastic recommendation... any more?

I can't think of any more formation-based tactical games. If you like a unique take on party position and formation, I love the real-time tactical battle system in Resonance Of Fate. It has a modern HD version.

 

[autoduelist]

I can't think of any more formation-based tactical games. If you like a unique take on party position and formation, I love the real-time tactical battle system in Resonance Of Fate. It has a modern HD version.

I played that when it came out but iirc got bored of the odd territory aquistion bit [tetris like shapes or something?]. I also thought gun customization was a little corny. Though I remember it had an interesting battle system, maybe i will give it another go.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I played that when it came out but iirc got bored of the odd territory aquistion bit [tetris like shapes or something?]. I also thought gun customization was a little corny. Though I remember it had an interesting battle system, maybe i will give it another go.

It's not everyone's bag, and The Last Remnant is actually pretty hard to beat when it comes to positioning squads and whatnot.

 

[Fuz]

Chrono Trigger's team attacks.

 

[Desudzer10]

Build up boss fights to where they feel like they actually matter. Not just, oh here is the next person you must defeat to beat the game.

 

[PumpkinPie]

Fast forward and auto-battle options.