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RTTP: Babylon 5
- Thread starter JeffZero
- Start date
This is something I try to think very seriously about in my own writing. It's unfortunate (but rather understandable) that most multispecies space opera tends to give its alien races an all-encompassing meta-culture. Still, I think B5 does a relatively noble job of things overall. All things considered. There are a few important distinctions between members of the alien societies, which is -- hey, it's something!
I am learning so many things as a result of this thread.
I'd totally forgotten Neroon is a D.C. Fontana invention. That's awesome. <3
Oh man. From memory, I don't remember much about this episode either (go figure, eh) so now I really need to be sure to pay heed.
^5 Neroon fandom.
I'm so glad it's not just me.
Anyway, "A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I" tonight! Write-up tomorrow!
Oh, definitely. The issue is that you only have so much time to explain alien cultures and still leave people interested, while human cultures are already common knowledge. And you need something to distinguish species, since they're already pretty human. Babylon 5 did very well given the pressure it was under. ...though that episode about showing off religions was a bit silly in retrospect, even if funny.
You could probably pull it off by openly acknowledging that we're only seeing the dominant culture of the world and that there's more to it. It'd also be cool to establish cultural crossover; are there G'Quanist humans or punk Centauri?
SF books tend to be better at it, since they get a lot of leeway. (Then again, books tend to be better at SF period, haha.) Wish there were more properly science fictional games and comics, though, you could get away with almost as much as you can get away with in books! And you could get away with more non-humanoid aliens. A comic book or animated series with Star Control 2-style designs would be great.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i didnt know Brad Dourif had a guest role on the show. Hes one of my favorite actors. i feel hes most known for playing outlandish or crazy characters but his ability to project warmth is incredible so its nice to see him on the show in that capacity.
I think that it's odd, but not necessarily a coincidence that the weakest episodes of Babylon 5 are the ones with single word titles. And of these, Season 1 has as many as the rest of the show combined. I see "Legacies" as an episode with some interesting ideas but not enough binding material to make it really work. It probably would have been a lot stronger if it wasn't trying to tell the stories of newly-introduced characters.
If anything, I think that cultural artifacts that just exist without any explicit reason for doing so is a good way of adding authenticity to a fictional setting.
I'm reading a historical novel on Ming China right now, and it's chock full of odd details that are just there. For example, the most venerated part of a person's body are the feet. Other than your spouse, no one is supposed to touch your feet. Even parents stop doing it as soon as their children are old enough to put their shoes on.
Yes and yes. As a whole, the Minbari work better when you don't know as much about them.
I think that part of the problem here is that alien races don't represent fully diverse cultures and settings; they represent ideas. And unless you only have one alien race in your show, then it makes more sense to use a brand new race to represent a new idea. The idea of a multi-civilization alien race is interesting but it's going to be very uncommon in shows with more than a coupe of alien races (although the Minbari sort of count).Oh, definitely. The issue is that you only have so much time to explain alien cultures and still leave people interested, while human cultures are already common knowledge. And you need something to distinguish species, since they're already pretty human. Babylon 5 did very well given the pressure it was under. ...though that episode about showing off religions was a bit silly in retrospect, even if funny.
You could probably pull it off by openly acknowledging that we're only seeing the dominant culture of the world and that there's more to it. It'd also be cool to establish cultural crossover; are there G'Quanist humans or punk Centauri?
The flip side of this is that, as civilizations mature they become more uniform. Nowadays, China is thought of as a relatively monolithic culture outside of the minority territories, but it wasn't always like that. China used to be a lot more like pre-British India; with lots of separate nations each with their own languages and cultures. It's just over time that it became more of a monolith. With the advent of instant communications, that trend is only going to accelerate.
I was just going to recommend Starcon 2 as a great example (even though it steals shamelessly from Larry Niven). To date I can't think of anything that's been better at presenting really alien aliens that were still capable of interacting with humans and be entertaining at the same time. And that includes stuff like Uplift, Known Space, and Humanx Commonwealth.
That's a great episode; possibly the best of the standalones.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Star Control 2 is one of the best video games ever made and it should be required play for anyone that loves science fiction. Theres no excuse to not play the game as its freeware as The Ur-Quan Masters. My recommendation is to leave the 3DO voices and music out. The different fonts for the different alien species and the original mod music works so well for establishing their presence.
http://sc2.sourceforge.net/
The funny thing is that the original music wasn't specifically designed for Star Control 2. The creators acquired the music by announcing a contest and using whatever they could out of random entries from the contestants. It's crazy that it ended up creating such a memorable soundtrack.
That's all laid out in this great interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Napx0MjivCM
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Yeah the story of everything behind the scenes about that game is really interesting.
Star Control 2's great because the aliens are really weird and out there, but at the same time, they're relatable an fun. Most SF non-humanoid aliens end up being too weird and strange, usually on purpose, but that's not as fun and only suits certain kinds of stories.
And there's the complication of interstellar planets and future technology and whatnot if you have a science fiction setting.
To be fair, a lot of that is because of China's official policies. Those cultures still exist, they're just not talked about anymore. Plus, while mass media has spread a lot of common culture around the world, it's also encourages a lot of subcultures, both off and online. Plus, honestly, I doubt that's going to continue forever. (For comparison, people claimed radio and television would eliminate accents...but that never happened, because people from (e.g.) the UK don't want to speak like Americans. If anything, dialects are becoming more distinct.)
And there's the complication of interstellar planets and future technology and whatnot if you have a science fiction setting.
A twofer because I'm falling behind!
"And The Sky Full Of Stars"
At last, a greater look at what drives Sinclair. I wasn't riveted by this episode but I appreciated the further backstory and I thought this was one of O'Hare's better performances. Or maybe it's because he seemed relatively restrained compared to the actor he shared most of his scenes with, who chewed the scenary so much in later scenes that his character came across as a cartoon.
The real takeaway from this are the mysteries that involve the Minbari and specifically, Delenn. As I can't remember how all of these are resolved, I look forward to finding out.
I also liked how its pointed out that getting lost on a station the size of Babylon 5 is a pain in the ass. Unlike Star Trek, people don't have communicators for immediate identification.
(The early CG made me giggle, fuzzy in detail and shown at an exceedingly low frame-rate. I guess they got the job done back then.)
"Deathwalker"
This episode has flaws for sure but it's also the most I've been absorbed in the series. It just comes together really well, easily the best shot and edited episode thus far. It's delightfully morally ambiguous and unpredictable, raising the tension to levels that I could cut with a knife. It also does a great job of world-building, tossing all of these ambassadors into a thick soup of intrigue. The Vorlons probably had the right idea, though. That immortality serum was bad news.
My biggest issues were a Talia B-plot that drags (but sets up later events, I'm sure) and Deathwalker herself, who is performed a tad broadly (complete with evil cackle).
(Also, Na'Toth is great. More of her, please. The actress makes several memorable Star Trek guest shots as well.)
"And The Sky Full Of Stars"
At last, a greater look at what drives Sinclair. I wasn't riveted by this episode but I appreciated the further backstory and I thought this was one of O'Hare's better performances. Or maybe it's because he seemed relatively restrained compared to the actor he shared most of his scenes with, who chewed the scenary so much in later scenes that his character came across as a cartoon.
The real takeaway from this are the mysteries that involve the Minbari and specifically, Delenn. As I can't remember how all of these are resolved, I look forward to finding out.
I also liked how its pointed out that getting lost on a station the size of Babylon 5 is a pain in the ass. Unlike Star Trek, people don't have communicators for immediate identification.
(The early CG made me giggle, fuzzy in detail and shown at an exceedingly low frame-rate. I guess they got the job done back then.)
"Deathwalker"
This episode has flaws for sure but it's also the most I've been absorbed in the series. It just comes together really well, easily the best shot and edited episode thus far. It's delightfully morally ambiguous and unpredictable, raising the tension to levels that I could cut with a knife. It also does a great job of world-building, tossing all of these ambassadors into a thick soup of intrigue. The Vorlons probably had the right idea, though. That immortality serum was bad news.
My biggest issues were a Talia B-plot that drags (but sets up later events, I'm sure) and Deathwalker herself, who is performed a tad broadly (complete with evil cackle).
(Also, Na'Toth is great. More of her, please. The actress makes several memorable Star Trek guest shots as well.)
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Just finished this and you werent kidding. Its probably my favorite episode of the series so far.
I'm talking about the Spring and Autumn period pre-500 BCE. And it is a result of China's official policies, but it's Qin and Han China policy. And those cultures of Wu, Yue, Lu, Jin, and so forth are gone; melted into the greater China.
Languages have been dying at an ever increasing rate, and it takes a lot of conscious effort to preserve them. A couple of hundred years of mass communications may still exhibit significant differences between regions on a planet, but will it be the same in a couple of thousand years?
Sadly we don't see too much more from her. It works out for the show overall, but I would have liked to see more of Caitlin Brown.
Those cultures might be gone as distinct entities, but they do still exist. The provinces and regions of China might be a lot less distinct today, but their culture hasn't vanished, though the modern government tries its best. And that's not getting into non-Han culture, most notably Tibet.
The distinctions between languages and dialects exist because people don't want to talk the same. People don't use language solely to communicate information, they use language for things like marking in-groups and out-groups. Marking where you're coming from, how formal you are, in-jokes...it's all very complicated. Furthermore, in the mass media and internet era, the rate of language change and differentiation is actually increasing, not decreasing. People pick up dialects, they differentiate themselves, they make up new things, they avoid adopting things, make fun of people for speaking a certain way, and so on. Heck, we're even starting to put research into internet dialects, people speaking differently on different parts of the internet.
And, languages are dying, but that has nothing to do with mass media and the internet. It's more to do with things like the after-effects of colonization wiping out a lot of people, official policies encouraging the suppression of languages (especially minority languages), and developing economies encouraging people to speak standardly so they can get a job. It's not mass media that's killing languages, it's economics. In fact, arguably, the internet helps the preservation of language by letting people communicate in their normal speech, even if it's not enough to save them.
We're never ever going to get to a point where we have only one language and one dialect. Humans would have to stop being humans for that to happen.
(Sorry about this getting really off-topic, it's just a topic I feel rather strongly about, haha.)
Yeah, I wish we got more Na'Toth too. She was cool.
That's Passing Through Gethsemane, right? Yeah, I'll have to rewatch to decide whether it's the best, but it's definitely up there.
SiegfriedFM
Member
Browsing Lurker's Guide again, since it's faster than rewatching and almost as comprehensive. It's great that each episode is discussed without later spoilers.
Also, don't miss this glorious piece of inpromptu Usenet world building, on the topic of spoo:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/001.html
Also, don't miss this glorious piece of inpromptu Usenet world building, on the topic of spoo:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/001.html
BlackLagoon
Member
Next you're going to bring up Sinclair's Duck.
(I actually have the Official Babylon 5 Cookbook somewhere, which contains a recipe for "spoo".
I think it used tofu as the main ingredient.
I watched the "Voice in the Wilderness" episodes last night and this morning. I'll try to make time to do the write-up before bed tonight. I think I'll do one extended post for them.
No kiddin'! We should chat a little bit about our favorite sci-fi books at some point, too. I really enjoy Dune, Foundation, Otherland, and plenty else.
Ha. Happy to oblige.
I forgot about this. There's so much I'd forgotten about this show. I'm really looking forward to this one; Dourif is always good, and it's too rare a thing to see him warmer, as you said. Have you seen Star Trek: Voyager? If so, or if you don't mind spoilers for it,
I once wrote a report on this!
I don't know that I'd necessarily agree. The enigma about them is good, but I'm just as invested in them once the layers have been peeled back. Some of my fondest memories involve Delenn's journey in future seasons.
China is a great example. This reminds me, though. One thing I think sci-fi shows could do to improve the depth of their alien races is to avoid referencing the various continents on their worlds as "the northern continent", "the eastern continent", and so forth. Name them. It's a tiny adjustment that would lend just a pinprick further culture. And yet it makes these worlds feel more alive. I've seen it done sometimes, but so often the rare examples of otherworldly continental reference are so impersonal.
My primary computer is a Chromebook. I own a laptop, but it is falling apart. Literally and figuratively. I think I can squeeze a couple more games out of it before it's through, and I'm planning on picking The Witcher and Trails in the Sky: The 3rd. But I'll toss this into the mix! I've never been too familiar with PC gaming, and I know I've missed some legends as a result.
jb write-ups hype! I like these episodes too. The former more so than the latter, but I really appreciate the world-building in both. I was harsher on Talia's B-Plot in "Deathwalker", but otherwise we seem to have pretty similar takeaways here. That evil lady's nefarious laugh though. Oh my gosh.
Hey, for what it's worth, while I obviously can't speak to the mods' opinions -- which is ultimately what counts, ha -- I'll always be happy for our ongoing topic to twist and turn around a multitude of subjects. So long as we can lead back into Babylon 5 somehow eventually, I hope no one minds interesting divergences.
I've never been able to get past the name...
No kiddin'! We should chat a little bit about our favorite sci-fi books at some point, too. I really enjoy Dune, Foundation, Otherland, and plenty else.
Ha. Happy to oblige.
I forgot about this. There's so much I'd forgotten about this show. I'm really looking forward to this one; Dourif is always good, and it's too rare a thing to see him warmer, as you said. Have you seen Star Trek: Voyager? If so, or if you don't mind spoilers for it,
I always kinda wished he stuck around a while longer. His death has purpose,
but he could have done well to sizzle up that cast.
but he could have done well to sizzle up that cast.
I once wrote a report on this!
I don't know that I'd necessarily agree. The enigma about them is good, but I'm just as invested in them once the layers have been peeled back. Some of my fondest memories involve Delenn's journey in future seasons.
China is a great example. This reminds me, though. One thing I think sci-fi shows could do to improve the depth of their alien races is to avoid referencing the various continents on their worlds as "the northern continent", "the eastern continent", and so forth. Name them. It's a tiny adjustment that would lend just a pinprick further culture. And yet it makes these worlds feel more alive. I've seen it done sometimes, but so often the rare examples of otherworldly continental reference are so impersonal.
My primary computer is a Chromebook. I own a laptop, but it is falling apart. Literally and figuratively. I think I can squeeze a couple more games out of it before it's through, and I'm planning on picking The Witcher and Trails in the Sky: The 3rd. But I'll toss this into the mix! I've never been too familiar with PC gaming, and I know I've missed some legends as a result.
jb write-ups hype! I like these episodes too. The former more so than the latter, but I really appreciate the world-building in both. I was harsher on Talia's B-Plot in "Deathwalker", but otherwise we seem to have pretty similar takeaways here. That evil lady's nefarious laugh though. Oh my gosh.
Hey, for what it's worth, while I obviously can't speak to the mods' opinions -- which is ultimately what counts, ha -- I'll always be happy for our ongoing topic to twist and turn around a multitude of subjects. So long as we can lead back into Babylon 5 somehow eventually, I hope no one minds interesting divergences.
I've never been able to get past the name...
Hyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyype! In that moment, she was like a bad JRPG villain, haha. I'll probably watch two more tonight. In fact, I just started "Believers" (which is already pissing me off).
I like the idea of named continents but I think that the problem is one of information density. Generally speaking, unless you're describing a planet in exhaustive detail, you're only going to go over any continents in passing. The alternative is to constantly say "the continent of Europe", and that can end up sounding unnatural. In the case of Babylon 5 though, they do specify the "island of Selini" in a future episode. (Anyone watching for the first time should not look that up.)
Star Control 2 is a 1992 DOS game. I'm pretty sure that it can run on a moderately powerful calculator. It's free, and it isn't too long so anyone with an interest in alien anthropology should really give it a shot.
"A Voice in the Wilderness" is one of only two times Babylon 5 goes for a traditional two-parter. It's a curious statement considering how serialized things become at various points further on. Arguments can be made -- successfully -- that the show engages in a three-parter, a six-parter, or even a whole season-parter, depending on one's personal definition. Internet vitriol can come from many avenues, and differences in definition is a common source. Anyone who's been on web forums is liable to discover that we all have slightly separate interpretations of these things. The world isn't as cut-and-dry as we expected. Where the heck am I going with this, anyway? The point is, there are all sorts of ways people classify all sorts of things in our world that we never expected to encounter. Nor is Epsilon-3, the world which Babylon 5 rotates around, what Earthgov initially thought: rather than barren, devoid of all life and civilization, it is in fact much more.
But how did we get to all this esoteric nonsense? Let's rewind. The first hour in the "Voice" duology opens with the arrival of Draal, an aging friend of Delenn's, to the station. Season 1 walks a tightrope with Delenn's character. It must keep her shrouded in mystery and yet periodically showcase her friendships, relations, and other such warmer things. This is how JMS kept viewers on their toes with the Minbari, and with the ambassador herself. Sinclair's mind was altered and he wants answers -- but Delenn herself, for all her cloaks and daggers, really doesn't seem so bad a person. Draal himself is quite affable, too. These seem like good people. Back at C'n'C, Ivanova is reporting the latest on a series of seismic disturbances down on Epsilon-3. Sinclair gives the go-ahead for a shuttle crew to investigate the tomfrakkery, but the planet fires off a beam at the shuttle, complicating matters.
Pictured above: good people.
Once he's been rescued, the leader of the scientific expedition suddenly becomes a real character for a little while as he explains his plans to unlock the mysteries of Epsilon-3 to Sinclair. Considering the planet is unstable and it has now demonstrated some kind of weird auto-defense mechanism there is plenty of reason to check it out. But while this is happening, pivotal arc lore is erupting way out on Mars. Cleverly, the show has referenced Martian political destabilization a few times in prior episodes, so there's been real build-up for mass riots and terrorist activity to occur even despite Mars itself not being a regular location. In fact, none of our cast has been there on screen, and we haven't even seen the place. But Garibaldi used to live there, which -- again, cleverly -- we already knew about, and he had a romantic partner there by the name of Lise Hampton. Now, Garibaldi's first scene in this episode is basically a Talia Winters re-introduction in which she tells Sinclair that he seems like he's been stalking her, basically, which is a little strange as a setup for what turns into a very sympathetic Garibaldi story about an entirely different woman. It's a funky callback to that quirky time Talia kicked our dear Michael in the nuts and I'd forgotten enough about this two-parter that I feared it would be all about him pining after her. It isn't. He's worried for Lise, and asks her to get entangled in Psi Corps back doors to find out her whereabouts. This whole subplot works very efficiently, giving us more reason to worry about the state of things back home while also deepening Garibaldi.
Speaking of Mars, I've always been a fan of red-tinted settings in space opera. There's this little planet, I can't recall its name, in Mass Effect 1 that's this vibrant, dangerous shade of red all over the place and I enjoy driving around in the Mako and feeling fearful. (I have issues.) Epsilon-3 is not Mars, but it's got this delicious red tint everywhere, and I love it. Oh, and there's an ancient alien strapped to a hyper-advanced machine network, so that's strange. Sinclair and Ivanova have gone down to find the origin of the beam weapon (keep an eye out for some pretty snazzy atmosphere as they descend to the tunnels, by the way) and evaded laserrific booby traps and they've found this dude, and he really, really needs their help. They grab him, make a tense getaway, and head back to B5. Meanwhile, a "really big ship" is coming through the jumpgate, and the episode ends hilariously abruptly because reasons.
"A Voice in the Wilderness" is difficult to rank without its immediate follow-up, but I'm going to try. It's good. It's one of the better entries in the first season. It has a strong sense of action and adventure while also cranking up the mysteries. The latter is a B5 specialty, even in the beginning; the former is more of an experimental process at this point in the show's run, and the results here are respectable. The show's budget is quite small, especially early on, so I imagine JMS tossed a good cut of coin into the special effects sequences here. It pays off in spades. What's more, Garibaldi's been suitably demonstrated as a flawed guy, and seeing him, for all his human flaws, worrying frantically over this Lise lady is strangely heartwarming. I like pretty much everything about this episode. The one weak spot is -- unsurprisingly -- some of the guest acting. The lead scientist is passably-performed, but his pair of subordinates really hurt his scenes. One of them is cartoonish and the other seems terminally disinterested in what ought to be a landmark discovery.
We immediately learn the identity of the big ship coming through the jumpgate, and it's... Ron Canada! Ron Canada is everywhere. Two years before interrogating the heck out of Worf, five years before harassing Janeway, seven years before giving Mulder a hard time, thirteen years before loathing SG-1, he's here as Captain Ellis Pierce of the starship Hyperion and he's ticking off Sinclair. Ron Canada has had an illustrious career offending people. In Pierce's defense, he'll apologize at the end of the hour, but for now he's taking over Babylon 5 and doing All The Wrong Things in an effort to secure Epsilon-3's enigmatic tech for humanity.
What follows is a tug-of-war between Sinclair and Pierce for control of the station. We want Sinclair to win, because not only is he our dude, he's always considerably wiser on the dangers planetside. The ancient fellow wakes up in Med-Lab, giving Franklin some much-needed screentime, and he seems to have chosen Draal as his successor. Someone's gotta get down there and take over the fellow's thankless duty of giving his (extended) life in service of the world. Eventually, Delenn, Draal, and unlikely hero Londo will all tag along to see that through while the human characters deal with the arrival of an outcast sect of the ancient builders who has taken claim of this region of space. This twist is clearly intended to heighten the action and stakes ever-further in a more whizzbang pair of episodes than Season 1 is accustomed to showing, and it mostly works. The complete annihilation of this latest threat at the end of the ep is a bit of a too-perfect ribbon in ensuring zero political fallout going forward, but I can easily forgive the script considering how well the show at-large excels in this arena.
"Commander Worf! I hate that you came through a Stargate! You FBI types are all the same! I claim this trash on behalf of all Malon!" You know Ron Canada is still acting, right? Can we get him on Star Trek: Discovery? I recommend the following twist: he's nice.
This is a good occasion to come back to Londo. I've never been entirely... comfortable with his inclusion in the action. It's always read a tad tone-deaf to me and I'm not sure why. He wants to help -- okay, fair. Londo is not a heartless man. In fact, his heart is a big part of his story, in a myriad of ways. He wants to feel the spirit of adventure again -- okay, fair. It's cute seeing him all fired up while piloting the shuttle during the battle. It just feels a little random. The script claims, through Draal's estimation, that it's because the three of them saw Ancient Alien's holographic projection as they're all strongly familiar with the Third Principle of Sentient Life. We later learn it is the capacity for self-sacrifice. This sets up Delenn owing him a favor, but it rings slightly false. I don't know. It's weird. I'm weird. I just don't know.
I do know Londo's arc, and I see where JMS is coming from, but in-the-moment it feels a bit forced.
When K'Nex Attack.
Regardless, the finale is solid. Draal finds new purpose, the seismic disturbances cease, the alien sect gets destroyed, and Ellis Pierce peacefully withdraws. The highlight here is Holographic!Draal showing up to all three sides and talking about belief in enlightened self-interest as the reason nobody will try to mess with the machine network, but noting that if enlightened self-interest should falter, well, y'know, death. The aliens are like, "lol rofl scrub l2block" and then they explode. Draal is great. As for Garibaldi? I like this finish, also. Lise is alive, but she's married to a chap named Franz. It's a bittersweet twist for a man who had been planning to tell her how he feels. What's better is the final scene, where Garibaldi and Delenn, both of whom had discernible arcs in this two-parter, bump into one-another at the observation lounge. I've always been a fan of when two characters develop largely independently of one-another and then meet up at the end of a story and spout a few things that have little to do with their peer. That's pretty much what happens here; Delenn is finding solace in the knowledge that her old friend, while imprisoned of his own volition, is at peace. Garibaldi? Garibaldi just wants to know what the hell kind of a name is "Franz".
"A Voice in the Wilderness" does a lot for the series. It supplies the gee-whiz special effects pizzazz, it serves up pertinent lore with the introduction of the Free Mars movement, it gives both Delenn and Garibaldi some presence, it shows us another side to Londo (even if I have some trouble with the execution therein), and it makes Epsilon-3 a heck of a lot more interesting. It has the difficult act of juggling numerous long-running character and thematic elements whilst maintaining enough singular cohesion to offer relatively episodic popcorn sci-fi entertainment. Combined, these are the best episodes since "Signs and Portents", although they're about to be given a run for their money in the immediate follow-up...
weemadarthur
Member
I watched Chrysalis, s1 finale.
This is the worst kind of season finale. It leaves all the main characters halfway through a bad place and tells you to wait a year to see if they're ok/alive/happy/whatever. I'm glad I'm watching this binge style because I don't have the patience to wait a year when the show will inevitably have been moved out of its convenient time slot and into the worst possible airtime and I will not be able to view it anyway.
This is the worst kind of season finale. It leaves all the main characters halfway through a bad place and tells you to wait a year to see if they're ok/alive/happy/whatever. I'm glad I'm watching this binge style because I don't have the patience to wait a year when the show will inevitably have been moved out of its convenient time slot and into the worst possible airtime and I will not be able to view it anyway.
BlackLagoon
Member
Yeah, this ties into why a lot of the episodes of the season were shot out of order. They spaced out the big ambitious episodes with smaller, cheaper ones that didn't require a lot of effects or new sets. Voice is for example bookended by TKO and Eyes, the latter of which was the final episode filmed in the season while Chrysalis had already been shot half-way through the season to give the CGI team more time to work on it.
SiegfriedFM
Member
I watched the first (three?) seasons of Babylon 5 catching up, on a friend's VHS collection. I then had to wait to see them as they were released, as he bought them one by one. It was quite a challenge.
"Believers"
Well, this was subtle, huh? I remember watching this in my early 20s and I recall it being a lot less bludgeoning. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it now. Still, I think it does an excellent job of humanizing (alienizing?) everyone involved, even the parents. In the end, Franklin was so blinded by his own beliefs that he didn't really stop to think of this child's future if he went ahead with the operation. Even if his parents hadn't killed him, he would have been ostracized from his society and struggled with the belief that he no longer has a soul. Life at all costs can have a heavy price. Richard Biggs is one of the stronger performers on the show and he sells the many emotional swings of his character.
In an attempt to break up the heavy A-plot, there's an Ivanova B-plot which feels completely extraneous and is paced very strangely with short 10-15 segments tossed randomly into the first half of the episode. They either needed more padding to fill out the episode because it ran short or they just wanted contrast. Either way, I don't feel it was successful.
Part of the fun in watching Babylon 5 is seeing how many Star Trek actors cross over into it. I recognized both of the parents as making memorable TNG appearances (Tricia O'Neil, the captain of the doomed 1701-C). Who's next? Jeffrey Combs? Marc Alaimo? Patrick Stewart?
"Survivors"
Regular cast member under suspicion is one of the most hackneyed stories out there and I can't say this episode does much to make the concept come to life, despite welcome backstory for Garibaldi. In fact, large chunks of it are either inept (aliens vs. Garibaldi fight), dull (Garibaldi trying to stay out of sight) or just really rote (the entire climax). Overbearing music doesn't help the proceedings, especially during the alien fight, where it sounds like it's trying to turn Garibaldi into an action hero, ala Bruce Willis in Die Hard. Come to think of it, Willis and Doyle do look kinda alike.
It's also frustrating that the Garibaldi/Lianna connection doesn't quite work. The actress spends most of the episode as a human icicle and when she finally softens at the end, the scene is sabotaged by some really, really rough dialogue. The emotional core just isn't there.
(That said, watching Ivanova and Lianna bounce off each other was one of the highlights of the episode. I'd like to see further development for Ivanova but for now, she's great delivering the show's best one-liners.)
Well, this was subtle, huh? I remember watching this in my early 20s and I recall it being a lot less bludgeoning. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it now. Still, I think it does an excellent job of humanizing (alienizing?) everyone involved, even the parents. In the end, Franklin was so blinded by his own beliefs that he didn't really stop to think of this child's future if he went ahead with the operation. Even if his parents hadn't killed him, he would have been ostracized from his society and struggled with the belief that he no longer has a soul. Life at all costs can have a heavy price. Richard Biggs is one of the stronger performers on the show and he sells the many emotional swings of his character.
In an attempt to break up the heavy A-plot, there's an Ivanova B-plot which feels completely extraneous and is paced very strangely with short 10-15 segments tossed randomly into the first half of the episode. They either needed more padding to fill out the episode because it ran short or they just wanted contrast. Either way, I don't feel it was successful.
Part of the fun in watching Babylon 5 is seeing how many Star Trek actors cross over into it. I recognized both of the parents as making memorable TNG appearances (Tricia O'Neil, the captain of the doomed 1701-C). Who's next? Jeffrey Combs? Marc Alaimo? Patrick Stewart?
"Survivors"
Regular cast member under suspicion is one of the most hackneyed stories out there and I can't say this episode does much to make the concept come to life, despite welcome backstory for Garibaldi. In fact, large chunks of it are either inept (aliens vs. Garibaldi fight), dull (Garibaldi trying to stay out of sight) or just really rote (the entire climax). Overbearing music doesn't help the proceedings, especially during the alien fight, where it sounds like it's trying to turn Garibaldi into an action hero, ala Bruce Willis in Die Hard. Come to think of it, Willis and Doyle do look kinda alike.
It's also frustrating that the Garibaldi/Lianna connection doesn't quite work. The actress spends most of the episode as a human icicle and when she finally softens at the end, the scene is sabotaged by some really, really rough dialogue. The emotional core just isn't there.
(That said, watching Ivanova and Lianna bounce off each other was one of the highlights of the episode. I'd like to see further development for Ivanova but for now, she's great delivering the show's best one-liners.)
Haha, oh, I don't doubt it. The trouble comes more so from the fact that I suspect a two-mile-per-hour wind would be enough to end the life of my poor old Windows laptop, so I've been very careful not to use it very often. I've got a lot going on IRL right now, so I can't really afford a replacement at the moment. (My Chromebook is great though so I'm fine, no worries -- it's just that it can't exactly game!) Next time I boot it up, though, I'll check out Star Control 2.
Oh man. We're #blessed to have this stuff available to us straight away now. I was entirely too young to grasp the wait back then (I think I was six at this point?) but off-season's a dreadful feeling for any fandom.
Although, strangely, I do still enjoy weekly release schedules for the shows I watch. It gives me time to discuss, theorize, and fantasize about where things are headed next Sunday or what-have-you.
Oh yeah, my friend's been reminding me how funky the season's shooting schedule was. It must have been hard on those actors. If any of them are anything like me -- I've done a bit of acting, nothing to write home about -- ordered structure really helps get into character. Having this stuff so out-of-order probably played hell on the brain.
"Believers"
Well, this was subtle, huh? I remember watching this in my early 20s and I recall it being a lot less bludgeoning. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it now. Still, I think it does an excellent job of humanizing (alienizing?) everyone involved, even the parents. In the end, Franklin was so blinded by his own beliefs that he didn't really stop to think of this child's future if he went ahead with the operation. Even if his parents hadn't killed him, he would have been ostracized from his society and struggled with the belief that he no longer has a soul. Life at all costs can have a heavy price. Richard Biggs is one of the stronger performers on the show and he sells the many emotional swings of his character.
In an attempt to break up the heavy A-plot, there's an Ivanova B-plot which feels completely extraneous and is paced very strangely with short 10-15 segments tossed randomly into the first half of the episode. They either needed more padding to fill out the episode because it ran short or they just wanted contrast. Either way, I don't feel it was successful.
Part of the fun in watching Babylon 5 is seeing how many Star Trek actors cross over into it. I recognized both of the parents as making memorable TNG appearances (Tricia O'Neil, the captain of the doomed 1701-C). Who's next? Jeffrey Combs? Marc Alaimo? Patrick Stewart?
"Survivors"
Regular cast member under suspicion is one of the most hackneyed stories out there and I can't say this episode does much to make the concept come to life, despite welcome backstory for Garibaldi. In fact, large chunks of it are either inept (aliens vs. Garibaldi fight), dull (Garibaldi trying to stay out of sight) or just really rote (the entire climax). Overbearing music doesn't help the proceedings, especially during the alien fight, where it sounds like it's trying to turn Garibaldi into an action hero, ala Bruce Willis in Die Hard. Come to think of it, Willis and Doyle do look kinda alike.
It's also frustrating that the Garibaldi/Lianna connection doesn't quite work. The actress spends most of the episode as a human icicle and when she finally softens at the end, the scene is sabotaged by some really, really rough dialogue. The emotional core just isn't there.
(That said, watching Ivanova and Lianna bounce off each other was one of the highlights of the episode. I'd like to see further development for Ivanova but for now, she's great delivering the show's best one-liners.)
Yeah, "Survivors" isn't good. It's... it's okay. It's good to have more Garibaldi backstory and this is the kind of stuff we come to rely upon as his character is shaped and tested. But I'm not a big fan of the style of the piece. Garibaldi's fights in particular were grievously ridiculous -- as I said in my write-up, it's like he waltzed into Streets of Rage 2 for no reason. Do you see what I mean, though? Do you see?! I mentioned this in the OP, but as a kid I legitimately thought Garibaldi was Bruce Willis. Damn that music, though. Damn most early Babylon 5 music, and plenty of ill-conceived moments thereafter. Franke at his best is a great composer, but... eh. There's so much cheese elsewhere.
I gave "Believers" high marks and I'm happy to see you enjoyed it too! The late Richard Biggs is one of the most underrated actors on the show.
weemadarthur
Member
Yes, not in S1, ....I doubt it.
"Babylon Squared" is a masterful episode of real deal science fiction -- but maybe less so on first blush. It immediately follows "A Voice in the Wilderness" in building bridges for future content, expanding the series lore in meaningful ways and developing the principle cast. It injects that most delicate of science fiction ideas, time travel, into the franchise framework. And it succeeds. I was but a young boy when it aired, but I have to imagine its implications shocked the fanbase. Here is an episode which promises so much for its show's future, dropping subtle bombshells: the Minbari belief in some sort of human prophecy, the alleged inevitability of a "Great War" in the days to come, the role certain characters will seemingly play in the ongoing time-shifting fate of Babylon 4. There's just so much here to dig into, and 23 years ago TV simply was not expected to do this. This is an episode that leaves so much unanswered so many years before The Sopranos and LOST and Battlestar Galactica. There's even a flash-forward. How did people respond to "Babylon Squared" in August of 1994? Was it viewed as revolutionary? Was it met with frustration? I wish I could travel through time to find out.
Delenn sojourns to the Grey Council, where she finds out she's been elected to a vital leadership position. The Grey Council members all wear robes, and one of them seems to have a slight bit of trouble removing his hood, which is really funny because that's not supposed to happen. Anyway, Delenn is honored but completely uninterested. She believes her place is still aboard Babylon 5; she believes she must be there for "what comes next." I've got to hand it to the scriptwriting here. New concepts such as the aforementioned prophecy are introduced rapid-fire without actually explaining anything because then we'd lose the intrigue. As a result, it's all a bunch of mystical mystery, and yet it works. Mira Furlan was given a difficult hand in the first season, as I talked about earlier today. Warm and yet cold. Compassionate and yet distant and enigmatic. A lesser actress could have sabotaged this wholesale. At the end of this B-Plot, Delenn receives a triluminary, which looks a lot like a triangle. She has also potentially been ostracized from greater Minbari society, so hopefully this triangle has a nice harmony.
Now for the meat of the episode. Not that Delenn's story here is in any way dull, but the bulk of our time is spent investigating the supposed reappearance of long-vanished predecessor Babylon 4. Sinclair gives a rousing speech to a bunch of people we'll never see again and then he and Garibaldi head out together. Bored on the long trip, Garibaldi consults Joss Whedon for advice, who reminds him that inane dialogue is often considered endearing. Armed with this newfound knowledge, and grinning because he knows he's the resident king of inanity, Michael Garibaldi decides to ask his good friend Jeffrey the order in which he zips and clasps his pants. This is a darling scene that has no bearing on anything.
Once aboard the vanishing station, the men are besieged by a desperate lad who tries to kill them -- because he's desperate. Garibaldi gets the sneak on him and he's immediately whisked away by one Major Krantz, who proceeds to overact his way into oblivion. This guy's line delivery is like a character became self-aware during a Vincent Price narration and started trying to match the legendary cadence but rolled a 1. Is this an apt tabletop metaphor? Anyway, it's bad news. Thankfully we're soon introduced to Tim Choates' fan favorite Zathras, whose gorgeous mug you can catch in the above snapshot. Zathras keeps trying to run away, though, and he's spouting off about a Great War, and how he's on the side of the light, and he's trying to stop the Great War, and there's a rocket man, burning out his fuse up here alone, and also I paused and spotted some kind of production personnel chilling on a wall.
Time travelers, indeed. This dude's positively 1994.
The station's getting all kinds of tachyon shocks, and everyone's freaking out. It's a good thing there's a thin plastic orange net separating Garibaldi from the civilians or else this would go south fast. But Sinclair gets a flash of something like a riot and Garibaldi busting out some kind of James Cameron bazooka and urging him to get to safety, and Krantz tells him it's from the future while peering around foggy corridors in search of Vincent Price. Sinclair helps get everyone off the station before it leaps out of time, holding hands with the rocket man before he does. Our heroes are completely dumbfounded by what in tarnation just happened, and tragic Zathras, noble Zathras, good and true Zathras? He's visited by the rocket man, who is in fact...
...Punished Sinclair. This poor graying alternative to our better-preserved commander is comforted by a Delenn whose hand and nose enter the picture but whose nose was perhaps not meant to be seen. There is a spoiler-centric reason for this.
It's the same reason I have Delenn's first-season pic in the OP.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I really wanted to post [potentially massive Star Trek DS9 spoilers, don't click this if you have any interest in checking out this great show]
simply because it's effin' hilarious.
weemadarthur
Member
OMG I saw him and wondered if they accidentally got a boom operator in the shot.
BlackLagoon
Member
Let me do you one better and dig up someone who was doing exactly what you're doing on Usenet during the show's original airing.
It's an old issue that first reared its head when they made the widescreen masters back in the early 2000s. Basically, B5 was made for 4:3, but they tried to keep extra space on the sides to allow for a widescreen version to be made at a later date. I guess this one slipped by the production crew and was never noticed originally because the 4:3 frame was fine.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
So ive encountered the episode that came on when my friend tried to get me into B5 20 years ago.. A Late Delivery From Avalon. Its just as awful as i remember it. im at the part with the metal detector near the beginning and the cringe is off the scale.
This was my reaction to them trying to get me into the show after that part:
How important is this episode? Will i miss anything by fast forwarding through the King Arthur plot?
This was my reaction to them trying to get me into the show after that part:
How important is this episode? Will i miss anything by fast forwarding through the King Arthur plot?
If I'm remembering it right, watch the last thirty seconds for some funny Marcus dialogue.So ive encountered the episode that came on when my friend tried to get me into B5 20 years ago.. A Late Delivery From Avalon. Its just as awful as i remember it. im at the part with the metal detector near the beginning and the cringe is off the scale.
This was my reaction to them trying to get me into the show after that part:
How important is this episode? Will i miss anything by fast forwarding through the King Arthur plot?
"By Any Means Necessary"
Honestly, episodes dealing with unions and strikes put me to sleep, no matter what show they're on. This one was a little better than most because it brought out the best in O'Hare and had an effective guest star in Katy Boyer.
(And a somewhat less effective one in John Snyder, who seems to think that chewing the scenery makes up for how thinly drawn his character is. I think this and his snooze-inducing appearance in TNG (paired up with poor Marina Sirtis) proves he's not a great actor.
Ultimately, Sinclair saves the day by thinking on his feet, even if that particular scene is clunkier than it needs to be.
The B-story is a bigger problem, in that both Londo and G'Kar behave like children and their antics sap away the tension from the A-story. I would have preferred this either cut out or scaled down massively.
I do like the growing discontent around the Earth plot. There's obviously political shit going down there and the ending indicates that Sinclair and Babylon 5 are going to be facing it sooner than later.
Honestly, episodes dealing with unions and strikes put me to sleep, no matter what show they're on. This one was a little better than most because it brought out the best in O'Hare and had an effective guest star in Katy Boyer.
(And a somewhat less effective one in John Snyder, who seems to think that chewing the scenery makes up for how thinly drawn his character is. I think this and his snooze-inducing appearance in TNG (paired up with poor Marina Sirtis) proves he's not a great actor.
Ultimately, Sinclair saves the day by thinking on his feet, even if that particular scene is clunkier than it needs to be.
The B-story is a bigger problem, in that both Londo and G'Kar behave like children and their antics sap away the tension from the A-story. I would have preferred this either cut out or scaled down massively.
I do like the growing discontent around the Earth plot. There's obviously political shit going down there and the ending indicates that Sinclair and Babylon 5 are going to be facing it sooner than later.
SiegfriedFM
Member
Babylon Squared... ah! Such a ridiculously complex episode. I remember being surprised when rewatching it because it felt so incomplete. Well, there's a pretty obvious reason for that.
NumberThree
Member
Is it bad that I'm nearing the end of my rewatch (currently episode 21 of season 4, not going to bother with season 5) yet reading that Babylon Squared writeup makes me wants to go back and watch some of those early big episodes again?
weemadarthur
Member
I'm finishing up "The Quality of Mercy" today and doing the write-up tonight or tomorrow morning! When next I'm around, I'll post more replies and take us on a tour of this penultimate S1 ep.
Yay! \o/
I love words.
Davey Cakes
Member
This thread makes me want to rewatch B5 so badly but there's just too much new stuff to catch up on. Dang it.
With the Go90 streaming, I really wish I could convince my brother or one of my friends to watch the show. It's as much a hard sell as any sci-fi show from that era though. It's not tight in terms of the episode commitment (considering most shows today aim for 10-13 eps per season as opposed to 20+) but the story does have satisfying setups and payoffs that I think are worth the full trip, even through the filler and mediocre one-offs.
B5 is a special show.
With the Go90 streaming, I really wish I could convince my brother or one of my friends to watch the show. It's as much a hard sell as any sci-fi show from that era though. It's not tight in terms of the episode commitment (considering most shows today aim for 10-13 eps per season as opposed to 20+) but the story does have satisfying setups and payoffs that I think are worth the full trip, even through the filler and mediocre one-offs.
B5 is a special show.
weemadarthur
Member
I watched the first two episodes in S2.
It took two episodes to get all the main characters back out of their halfway houses from the S1 season finale.
The machine from Mercy appears briefly to literally deus ex machina a sickie, I expect it to go away now because too much deus.
Londo was really unhappy at getting in bed with smarmy weirdo, but still pays the debt. He looks like someone who will throw good money after bad with smarmy weirdo because he has no foresight. Time will tell if he uses the result to THINK about things.
I love the shadow ships. If I got a spaceship, I might like one of those.
Sheridan seems intelligent. His sister is a terrible person, "grieve my way, you jerk!"
It took two episodes to get all the main characters back out of their halfway houses from the S1 season finale.
The machine from Mercy appears briefly to literally deus ex machina a sickie, I expect it to go away now because too much deus.
Londo was really unhappy at getting in bed with smarmy weirdo, but still pays the debt. He looks like someone who will throw good money after bad with smarmy weirdo because he has no foresight. Time will tell if he uses the result to THINK about things.
I love the shadow ships. If I got a spaceship, I might like one of those.
Sheridan seems intelligent. His sister is a terrible person, "grieve my way, you jerk!"
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
It is almost inconceivable to me that the person that wrote A Late Delivery From Avalon also wrote War Without End. Just finished part 1.. cant wait to see the next one.
I've always wanted to watch this show, ever since I saw a little bit of it as a kid. It was the Star Trek that was not Star Trek, which at the time seemed very exciting! 😆
So now that this thread reared its beautiful head, I've been watching the first season. I just caught up with Jeff (I love that you share Sinclair's name ❤️ and will be watching The Quality of Mercy next.
I'm being a bit careful reading this thread, so mostly reading Jeff's and jb's write-ups.
Some of my thoughts so far:
I love it.
It's very cheesy and nostalgic, which is a winning combination. So I'm usually enjoying even the things that are of questionable quality. 😎 The music is the bomb, and the incredibly one-note villains they bring in are great.
I absolutely ADORED when Garibaldi and Susan called out the over-the-top villains. Garibaldi called Ari Ben Zayn 'Colonel Ben Hitler' and Ivanova said "Worst case of testosterone-poisoning I've ever seen" concerning Captain Pierce.
lol
I'm not in thinking mode right now, but I'll try to write some more focused thoughts about why I'm enjoying the hell out of this. 😇
So now that this thread reared its beautiful head, I've been watching the first season. I just caught up with Jeff (I love that you share Sinclair's name ❤️
and will be watching The Quality of Mercy next.I'm being a bit careful reading this thread, so mostly reading Jeff's and jb's write-ups.
Some of my thoughts so far:
I love it.
It's very cheesy and nostalgic, which is a winning combination. So I'm usually enjoying even the things that are of questionable quality. 😎 The music is the bomb, and the incredibly one-note villains they bring in are great.
I absolutely ADORED when Garibaldi and Susan called out the over-the-top villains. Garibaldi called Ari Ben Zayn 'Colonel Ben Hitler' and Ivanova said "Worst case of testosterone-poisoning I've ever seen" concerning Captain Pierce.
lol
I'm not in thinking mode right now, but I'll try to write some more focused thoughts about why I'm enjoying the hell out of this. 😇