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[MacGuffin]

I don't think the DS is even capable of handling the System 12 version at full speed...

I'm glad YOU don't THINK so, but how about some hard facts that are not random guesses as technology and your perception of it's use.

 

[Kon Tiki]

I'm glad YOU don't THINK so, but how about some hard facts that are not random guesses as technology and your perception of it's use.

I am having a bit of deja vu, you are about to get owned.

 

[MacGuffin]

How do you figure? No one has any idea what a system can or can't do with what games or what developer. Anyone saying "this can't happen because of X" is out of line, unless they are a developer for said system.

 

[dark10x]

How do you figure? No one has any idea what a system can or can't do with what games or what developer. Anyone saying "this can't happen because of X" is out of line, unless they are a developer for said system.

So, if I was to suggest that the DS could not handle a perfect port of, say, Ninja Gaiden (XBOX)...I would be out of line? I think it is possible to make a somewhat educated guess in regards to system potential...

When you have specs and you have technology examples, you kind of get an idea of what you are looking at...

I "doubt" that it could handle it perfectly, but that doesn't suggest that I was factually claiming it to be impossible. I am simply guessing, based on information I have read, that it would probably be unable to do so. We'll have to wait and see, of course, but the system has a lot to prove...

 

[Bluemercury]

Well Soul Edge runned on the ps1 based namco system right?If yes i cant see why namco couldnt do "perfect" port.....

 

[dark10x]

Well Soul Edge runned on the ps1 based namco system right?If yes i cant see why namco couldnt do "perfect" port.....

Soul Edge was not on System 12.

Soul Edge ran at 30 fps and had a much lower level of detail. Soul Calibur on System 12, on the other hand, was a 60 fps game and featured much more geometric detail.

I'd say that the DS could replicate Soul Edge (at 60 fps even).

 

[neo2046]

I hope this is true



WAIT!!! will LINK be in the game too???

 

[Baron Aloha]

It doesn't matter if this is true or not. Namco will just port Soul Calibur 2 onto the PSP.

Then DS = pwned!

 

[Shogmaster]

This is due to both new compression technologies and techniques, and the fact that the less complex that textures, character models, and environments are, the less space they consume. Since the DS's screen resolution is quite a bit smaller than a TV's resolution, that means lower res textures and less polygons can be used to create highend visuals.
-Original Post

The screen is smaller so you obviously don't need as many polygons per second...they even went as far to say that.

Polys per second and screen size relationship is moot! More apt is fill rate vs screen size relationship, although that's somewhat moot as well if you consider multi texturing.

Also notice My comparasin took texture storage out of equation by not accounting for DC's VRAM.

Regardless, I don't care how good the compression methods have become, you are not going to cram 26MB of data into ~4MB, even if you only have about 1/4th of the screen res to draw. Nope. Sorry. Forget it.

If the DS was equipped with MBX Lite (1M triangles/sec, DX6/7 FXs, 100MPixel/sec) and had at least 16MB of total RAM, I could see DC SC being replicated like the article suggests.

 

[doncale]

the DS would be very lucky to get a halfway decent conversion of the System 12 arcade Soul Calibur. the DC version would utterly be impossible. Soul Edge though, is probably doable as i said before.

 

[jarrod]

If PS1 could handle a decent version of Tekken 3, why's everyone doubt Soul Calibur being possible on DS. Of course an exact port is out of the question, but why couldn't something as commendable as the PS1 T3 port be happening?

 

[Defensor]

They'll probably make it 2d like Tekken Advance

 

[Shogmaster]

the DS would be very lucky to get a halfway decent conversion of the System 12 arcade Soul Calibur. the DC version would utterly be impossible. Soul Edge though, is probably doable as i said before.

System 12 SC is too big a monster in geometry for DS IMO. System 12 is rated at 360,000~ish triangles per second rendered, and I think Namco squeezed out most of that for SC arcade. If you really chunked out the characters, and made all the stages a simple squares, then maybe.

I think all DS fans should aim realistically and expect Soul Edge/Blade level engine. And NOT 60FPS version of that (which would be way more than 120,000 triangles per second). But put newer (better) art direction and the improved gameplay system on it and it would be pretty cool.

If PS1 could handle a decent version of Tekken 3, why's everyone doubt Soul Calibur being possible on DS. Of course an exact port is out of the question, but why couldn't something as commendable as the PS1 T3 port be happening?

Cause PS1 could render more than 120,000 triangles per second.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

I don't understand how Soul Calibur would take advantage of the DS' functonalities.

The real benefit I always saw for the DS was using the 2nd touch screen as a customizable keypad designed specifically for individual games. A developer could now design an interface made best to suit a game as opposed to trying to suit it to the pre-defined button layout on the system, an example would be the submarine demo; with all its speciality guages and dials.

 

[jarrod]

Cause PS1 could render more than 120,000 triangles per second.

So... how many triangles were used in T3 PS1?

 

[Shogmaster]

So... how many triangles were used in T3 PS1?

Probably maxxed out PS1. Well over 240,000 I'd guess.

Some would even say that PS1 could do 360,000 and the System 12 is more like 500,000 so I'm probably being way too conservative with my figures.

 

[evilromero]

I don't understand how Soul Calibur would take advantage of the DS' functonalities.

The real benefit I always saw for the DS was using the 2nd touch screen as a customizable keypad designed specifically for individual games. A developer could now design an interface made best to suit a game as opposed to trying to suit it to the pre-defined button layout on the system, an example would be the submarine demo; with all its speciality guages and dials.

You have to understand that regular game must come out for the system, or there would be none. Just because there's a second screen doesn't mean we can't get standard games like Soul Calibur. It's there for the developers to use it how they wish. Or if they wish.

 

[ManaByte]

Namco ports PSX Soul Edge to the DS and calls it Soul Calibur DS, while they port PS2 Tekken 5 to the PSP and Sega ports VF4 to the PSP.

 

[jarrod]

Probably maxxed out PS1. Well over 240,000 I'd guess.

Some would even say that PS1 could do 360,000 and the System 12 is more like 500,000 so I'm probably being way too conservative with my figures.

Yeah, I've heard quotes of Sys12 being around 500k pps... 360,000 was PS1's theoretical textured maximum iirc (what Sony stuck on spec sheets). Still I'm not sure PR polygon specs are the best way to judge the viability of a potential SC port. Saturn was rated 200k pps by Sega, yet I bet DS could handle a better VF2 port than it managed... looking at the 60fps Mario 64x4 or Sonic DS, I think DS could do an excellent SC port, maybe going for 2D bgs like the 32bit ports of VF2 & T3...

 

[Kon Tiki]

Screw ports. I want new games, new genres!

 

[Shogmaster]

Yeah, I've heard quotes of Sys12 being around 500k pps... 360,000 was PS1's theoretical textured maximum iirc (what Sony stuck on spec sheets). Still I'm not sure PR polygon specs are the best way to judge the viability of a potential SC port. Saturn was rated 200k pps by Sega, yet I bet DS could handle a better VF2 port than it managed...

I highly doubt it. Those 200,000 of Saturn's were quads. Saturn VF2 on DS would have to give up 60FPS.

looking at the 60fps Mario 64x4 or Sonic DS, I think DS could do an excellent SC port, maybe going for 2D bgs like the 32bit ports of VF2 & T3...

Most folks wouldn't call that an "excellent SC port". Besides, you are not talking into account things like geometry and animation data. You can only compress so much.

 

[Ronin]

All this geek speak is making my head spin.

 

[jarrod]

I highly doubt it. Those 200,000 of Saturn's were quads. Saturn VF2 on DS would have to give up 60FPS.

Why exactly? Are you also saying a N64 VF2 would've had to drop to 30fps? Would Saturn's 200k quads per second effectively mean it had more geometry pushing power than the 360k pps PS1? Why are these arbitrary PR trigangle figures so important when DS has dispayed prelaunch demos that absolutely slaughter anything PS1, Saturn or even N64 boasted at a similar timeframe in their lifecycles? Why didn't Sega or Sony have anything as good looking as Mario Kart DS, Sonic DS or Mario 64x4 in 1994?

Most folks wouldn't call that an "excellent SC port". Besides, you are not talking into account things like geometry and animation data. You can only compress so much.

Sure I am... polycounts would likely be comparable to 32bit console 60fps fighters like DOA, Tekken 3 or Last Bronx, using similar tricks like 2D backgrounds to keep the models somewhat comparable to arcade stuff. DS (4.64+ MB) also has more total system RAM than PS1 (4.03MB) and likely close to Saturn (6.09MB). DS cards start at 128MB, which is only a quarter what PS1/Saturn CDs carried and comparable to what arcade boards boasted for games around that time. So why would DS be incapable of handling SC's geometry or animation data as compared to the 32bit consoles of the day? Why could PS1 handle Tekken 3 and DS can't handle Soul Calibur?

 

[Shogmaster]

Why exactly? Are you also saying a N64 VF2 would've had to drop to 30fps? Would Saturn's 200k quads per second effectively mean it had more geometry pushing power than the 360k pps PS1? Why are these arbitrary PR trigangle figures so important when DS has dispayed prelaunch demos that absolutely slaughter anything PS1, Saturn or even N64 boasted at a similar timeframe in their lifecycles? Why didn't Sega or Sony have anything as good looking as Mario Kart DS, Sonic DS or Mario 64x4 in 1994?

Do you really belive that any of the DS demos slaughtered anything on the PS1, Saturn and N64? I need a bigger fucking rolleyes than my 19" monitor can display. I held just about everyone of those demos in my hand. They destroyed GBA, but that's about it.

Sure I am... polycounts would likely be comparable to 32bit console 60fps fighters like DOA, Tekken 3 or Last Bronx, using similar tricks like 2D backgrounds to keep the models somewhat comparable to arcade stuff.

Then IMO, they are no longer "excellent" ports. More like hack jobs.

DS (4.64+ MB) also has more total system RAM than PS1 (4.03MB) and likely close to Saturn (6.09MB). DS cards start at 128MB, which is only a quarter what PS1/Saturn CDs carried and comparable to what arcade boards boasted for games around that time.

This is fine for everything except for polycount, which directly effects frame rate.

So why would DS be incapable of handling SC's geometry or animation data as compared to the 32bit consoles of the day? Why could PS1 handle Tekken 3 and DS can't handle Soul Calibur?

PS1's 240,000 ish tris/sec is much close to System 12's 360,000 ish tris/sec than DS's 120,000 ish tris/sec. If you are willing to take super reduced geometry on everything, you can have your 60FPS PS1 version of Tekken 3.

But SC probably contains alot more animation data and such for 4MB IMO. You'd have to give up more than just geometry complexity to get System 12 SC on DS. You'd probably have to settle for reduced movelist and/or choppier animation.

 

[kitchenmotors]

Do you really belive that any of the DS demos slaughtered anything on the PS1, Saturn and N64? I need a bigger fucking rolleyes than my 19" monitor can display. I held just about everyone of those demos in my hand. They destroyed GBA, but that's about it.

The Sonic demo blew away anything I've seen on any 32/64 bit system.

 

[Shogmaster]

The Sonic demo blew away anything I've seen on any 32/64 bit system.

Better than say wipeout XL/3? F-Zero 64? Gran Turismo 2? Remember, the demo was just a small closed loop and Sonic running. Expand that to a game, and.....

 

[kitchenmotors]

Better than say wipeout XL/3? F-Zero 64? Gran Turismo 2? Remember, the demo was just a small closed loop and Sonic running. Expand that to a game, and.....

I dunno, the backgrounds looked pretty nice. The whole demo seemed very smooth. The sense of speed was nice, and the graphics didn't take a hit in order to achieve it (as in F-Zero X).

 

[Shogmaster]

I dunno, the backgrounds looked pretty nice. The whole demo seemed very smooth. The sense of speed was nice, and the graphics didn't take a hit in order to achieve it (as in F-Zero X).

How many hovercrafts were in a typical F-Zero 64 race? And what was the frame rate of F-Zero 64?

 

[kitchenmotors]

How many hovercrafts were in a typical F-Zero 64 race? And what was the frame rate of F-Zero 64?

What was it, like 25 cars? And 60 fps. But, those cars were made of very few polygons. The Sonic demo has a very high polygon Sonic, possibly containing more polygons than all of the F-Zero X cars combined.

It doesn't matter anyway, everything at this point is assumptions. But I wouldn't under estimate the DS until we see more of it.

 

[jarrod]

Do you really belive that any of the DS demos slaughtered anything on the PS1, Saturn and N64? I need a bigger fucking rolleyes than my 19" monitor can display. I held just about everyone of those demos in my hand. They destroyed GBA, but that's about it.

Reread what I wrote. Those DS demos definitely blew away Daytona Saturn, Toshshinden and Mario 64....

Then IMO, they are no longer "excellent" ports. More like hack jobs.

Close enough. I was pretty happy with VF2 on my Saturn anyway.

This is fine for everything except for polycount, which directly effects frame rate.

PS1's 240,000 ish tris/sec is much close to System 12's 360,000 ish tris/sec than DS's 120,000 ish tris/sec. If you are willing to take super reduced geometry on everything, you can have your 60FPS PS1 version of Tekken 3.

And again, do we really have meaningful ploycount info? Nintendo saying 120k pps for DS couldn't be in line with them also saying giving a conservative 100k pps for N64 or 6-12M pps for GameCube? Has Nintendo ever given theoretical polycounts, like PS1's 360k textured or Saturn's 200k textured/500k flat? So why make direct comparsions? Why not compare software to get an idea of each systme's ability to handle arcade ports?

But SC probably contains alot more animation data and such for 4MB IMO. You'd have to give up more than just geometry complexity to get System 12 SC on DS. You'd probably have to settle for reduced movelist and/or choppier animation.

Would you also say then PS1 is incapable of a 'good' version of SC?

Also, would DS cards have any advatange over PS1 CDs in this area (for memory retrival and use)?

 

[Shogmaster]

What was it, like 25 cars? And 60 fps. But, those cars were made of very few polygons. The Sonic demo has a very high polygon Sonic, possibly containing more polygons than all of the F-Zero X cars combined.

Come on now.... He was high poly, but more than 25 F-Zero crafts @60FPS? I don't think Sonic Demo was 60FPS.

 

[Drinky Crow]

That doesn't look much better than the 3D part of Sonic JAM. Man, DS 3D graphics are oooooogly.

 

[jarrod]

That doesn't look much better than the 3D part of Sonic JAM.

Well that's essentially comparing a 4th generation game engine from a hardware maker to a demo thrown together in a few months by a 3rd party.... and yes it does.

 

[Shogmaster]

Reread what I wrote. Those DS demos definitely blew away Daytona Saturn, Toshshinden and Mario 64....

FUCK no. Those demos were really limited in scope. Those games are fully realised game. Sorry. You are way off there.

Close enough. I was pretty happy with VF2 on my Saturn anyway.

I was too, because it retain decent character models and exact moves, animations, and frame rate. DS won't have all of those.

And again, do we really have meaningful ploycount info? Nintendo saying 120k pps for DS couldn't be in line with them also saying giving a conservative 100k pps for N64 or 6-12M pps for GameCube? Has Nintendo ever given theoretical polycounts, like PS1's 360k textured or Saturn's 200k textured/500k flat? So why make direct comparsions? Why not compare software to get an idea of each systme's ability to handle arcade ports?

Until we get exactly the same software on all platforms to compare, it's all up to speculations anyways. Besides, 360K for PS1 and 200K for Saturn aren't rediculous theoretical figures like 66M for PS2 and 150M for XBox. More like extreme high upper end achievable figures (especially for Saturn).

Would you also say then PS1 is incapable of a 'good' version of SC?

Define "good". I'd say PS1 version of System 12 SC would give up slightly on geometry and animation data. That's not bad. I guess even "good".

Also, would DS cards have any advatange over PS1 CDs in this area (for memory retrival and use)?

Alot of good that did for N64. Without really fast RAM with tons of bandwidth, that's a wasted advantage IMO.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Super Mario 64 impressed me more than Super MArio 64x4: effects wise and draw-distance wise (some of the backgrounds near the castle have been shortened and replacd with flat bitmaps for example)... will the finished game be better ? If it will be I will be happy .

 

[ManaByte]

That doesn't look much better than the 3D part of Sonic JAM. Man, DS 3D graphics are oooooogly.

It's what Sonic would've looked like in a later-gen PSOne game... Most definitely doesn't "blow away" anything on a 32/64 bit system. Rare's N64 platformers (Banjo, Conker) were a bit more impressive if only thanks to additional effects that the DS cannot do.

Those DS demos definitely blew away Daytona Saturn, Toshshinden

Wow, so you mean a 2004 tech demo blew away a 1994/95 first-generation PSX/Saturn game? You don't say?

Mario Kart DS is a perfect example of what they shouldn't do. Instead of going for full-poly, they should've done something like Mario Kart 64 with rendered sprites and 3D backgrounds. Then again, with no filtering effects who knows how it would've looked.

 

[explodet]

You're breakin' my balls, jarrod! You're breakin' my balls!

 

[neptunes]

The DS aint that bad.

I just wish it had texture filtering, cause those textures could kill a man.

 

[Shogmaster]

You're breakin' my balls, jarrod! You're breakin' my balls!

Hey, you didn't see the movie already, did ya?

 

[ManaByte]

The DS aint that bad.

I just wish it had texture filtering, cause those textures could kill a man.

Yea, the dogs look good, but then again so did the T-Rex on the PSX developers demo disc

 

[P90]

I know you'd like to believe it, but you're not special. I didn't even notice that I had replied to a post of yours, to be quite honest. I reply to MANY people on a daily basis.

I can vouch for that. You are one of the better posters here- well thought out posts. Though I disagree with you a decent percentage of the time.

 

[jett]

Probably maxxed out PS1. Well over 240,000 I'd guess.

Hehe, way off. How does 60000~120000 per second sound? One of the very first PSX emus displayed the number of polygons per frame. I remember than when I ran Tekken 3 it usually hovered between 1000 and 2000 polys per frame.

I'm sure the DS could do a respectable port of the System 12 rev of Soul Calibur.

 

[Shogmaster]

Hehe, way off. How does 60000~120000 per second sound? One of the very first PSX emus displayed the number of polygons per frame. I remember than when I ran Tekken 3 it usually hovered between 1000 and 2000 polys per frame.

I'm sure the DS could do a respectable port of the System 12 rev of Soul Calibur.

No shit? @_0

 

[jarrod]

FUCK no. Those demos were really limited in scope. Those games are fully realised game. Sorry. You are way off there.

Sorry, blew away the pre-release demos of Daytona Saturn, Tohshinden and Mario 64... we've already seen an Mario 64 shot comparison before (and M64 was a visual marvel at the time), DS is way ahead already. Take a look back at what PS1/Saturn software looked like in mid 1994 and we'll see how far I'm off...

I was too, because it retain decent character models and exact moves, animations, and frame rate. DS won't have all of those.

Can you give me an insightful reason why for all those? Besides PR polycounts?

Until we get exactly the same software on all platforms to compare, it's all up to speculations anyways. Besides, 360K for PS1 and 200K for Saturn aren't rediculous theoretical figures like 66M for PS2 and 150M for XBox. More like extreme high upper end achievable figures (especially for Saturn).

And what was Nintendo's quote of 100k pps for N64? Also high upper end achievable figures? Mario 64x4 anyway seems to one up the original in terms of geometry (and at 60fps) for an early comparison of DS to N64...

Define "good". I'd say PS1 version of System 12 SC would give up slightly on geometry and animation data. That's not bad. I guess even "good".

Even with PS1's extremely limited (moreso than DS) RAM pool? DS couldn't hope to manage that amount of animation data but an even more RAM starved PS1 would only give up slightly in that area?

Alot of good that did for N64. Without really fast RAM with tons of bandwidth, that's a wasted advantage IMO.

So how fast is the DS RAM? As slow as N64? Is this a wasted advantage again? And if not, why bring up N64 at all rather than just answer the question?

 

[Shogmaster]

You're breakin' my balls, jarrod! You're breakin' my balls!

Yeesh! Have any idea to get him off my balls?

Fine Jerrod! DS can do DC SC perfectly!! Now get of my testicles!

 

[Rlan]

You're trying to tell me that the Sonic DS Demo doesn't look better than the Sonic Jam Sonic World?

He's high as a kite everybody! Goofballs!

 

[jarrod]

Yeesh! Have any idea to get him off my balls?

Fine Jerrod! DS can do DC SC perfectly!! Now get of my testicles!

Who said anything about perfectly... I'm just proposing better than PS1. PR be damned.

 

[explodet]

Hey, you didn't see the movie already, did ya?

Nope, but I saw the KJI version of the official movie site.
http://www.teamamericamovie.com/index.php?lang=4

Then I see this thread and that's how I picture you responding, is all.

Carry on!

 

[Shogmaster]

Who said anything about perfectly... I'm just proposing better than PS1. PR be damned.

I'm with you on that!

Spoiler

Except for the frame rate!

 

[jarrod]

I'm with you on that!

Spoiler

Except for the frame rate!

BARF!!

You've gotta admit though, Mario 64x4 with higher polygon models (and more characters) than the original all at 60 fps is pretty nifty...