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[The Jackdog]

So much for pedestrian safety. The lobbies are so concerned with themselves that they never look at it from a holistic angle. These types of stops are TERRIBLE for pedestrian safety. I can't speak to San Francisco, but here in Philly streets are too narrow, and too full of parked cars to properly see pedestrians at most crosswalks, even when you're right up on them. Everyone needs to stop at stop signs.

Also, what a ridiculous protest. How about they line up with normal traffic patterns instead of a long line and stop at the stop signs. How about they not filter to the head of traffic at stop signs. It's so ridiculous.

Pedestrian safety has to come before vehicular convenience.

philly here as well.

i think i save the life of at least 20 bikers a day by the way they blow through stop signs even though i have the right of way and im moving.

im the hero philly needs.

 

[jdw_b]

i live in a city, its somehow not mad max and people in 25-30 zones generally go 25-30 and stick within 5 mph minus a few outliers.

i know, society is crazy right

When I drive (UK) if I stick to the speed limit i'll very quickly see a lot of cars lining up behind me. First in line will generally be an Audi or BMW, trying to find out what's on my backseat.

Happens most often in the 20mph zones we have introduced recently here. The signs might as well be invisible

 

[mackattk]

I stop fully at stop signs. I drive defensively and with the flow of traffic. Well maybe 5-10 over on open expressways. Probably why I've done a good job of never in my life being pulled over or ticketed. Even as a black man in FL!

But if they are cool with people yielding illegally through stop signs, why not replace stop signs with yield signs? That way nobody is confused of what's going on.

Same here... It is just easier for me since I don't have to worry about looking for cops anytime there is a stop sign.. Just follow the law and you won't get a ticket.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

philly here as well.

i think i save the life of at least 20 bikers a day by the way they blow through stop signs even though i have the right of way and im moving.

im the hero philly needs.

This morning it was a cyclist coming up a one way street the wrong way for me. I'm all for bikes, but the ways the bad riders break the law with them is infinitely more frustrating than other modes of transportation.

Also, you know, this stop sign stuff wouldn't even be an issue if we had proper bike lanes. Put in more bike lanes, have cyclists stop like regular traffic, and everyone will be happy.

 

[theepicoftyler]

How would this work? I've never seen a yield sign opposite a stop sign; it's always for merging. If a car is stopped at a stop sign, does the biker yield to the car? The car isn't moving and hasn't entered the intersection. This just seems to give more leeway for bikers to blast willy nilly through a stop sign. This is from someone who will roll through a neighborhood 4-way stop if I can clearly see all directions are empty.

It works like a yield sign. You yield if there are other cars present.

RE: Bolded part: This is 100% easier to do on a bike than it is on a car. Cyclists can see the oncoming intersection much better than a car can. They also can stop much quicker than cars. If they will arrive at the stop sign faster than a car will (which MUST stop at a stop sign no matter what), they have the right to proceed through the intersection without stopping (under this rule).

 

[The Jackdog]

When I drive (UK) if I stick to the speed limit i'll very quickly see a lot of cars lining up behind me. First in line will generally be an Audi or BMW, trying to find out what's on my backseat.

Happens most often in the 20mph zones we have introduced recently here. The signs might as well be invisible

i think on major roads, especially highways, theres a difference between speeding and moving along with the flow of traffic.

if im on the turnpike and its 60 mph and everyone is going 70 and its all going fine, that doesnt feel like excessive speeding abuse

 

[ezrarh]

When I drive (UK) if I stick to the speed limit i'll very quickly see a lot of cars lining up behind me. First in line will generally be an Audi or BMW, trying to find out what's on my backseat.

Happens most often in the 20mph zones we have introduced recently here. The signs might as well be invisible

The thing with US roads is that a lot of them are designed for much faster speeds than the posted speed limit. We're putting highway sized lanes and roads in cities and neighborhoods - of course people will want to drive faster hence why everybody speeds. People will drive at the speed in which they feel safe, not necessarily the posted speed limit. Some people will have a higher tolerance for what is 'safe' than others. But this is another topic for discussion.

 

[BashNasty]

i dont think anyone who hasnt rode a bike for more than 25 miles through a city has any right to this conversation.

Yea, I don't think a lot of the angry people in this thread know what they're talking about. I get around Chicago by biking, and they only time any cyclist here stops at stop signs is when there are pedestrians or other cars directly going through the intersection. Constantly stopping for stop signs is unnecessarily taxing (it's much more difficult to stop and start all the time on a bike than a car) and no one, ever, does it. The cops don't give a shit, because they have far more important things to deal with.

I'm sure San Francisco works exactly the same as Chicago in this regard.

 

[Sub_Level]

There is no shortage of clashes among those who travel by foot, on two wheels and on four. In August, a driver was surrounded by cyclists from Critical Mass, a guerrilla bike group that holds monthly rides that often snarl traffic; when the driver tried to escape, one of the cyclists used a bike lock to smash the car’s windows and hood. The episode was caught on video.

Would be bad to do that to drivers who are carrying a pistol in the glove box lol

 

[fuzzyset]

It works like a yield sign. You yield if there are other cars present.

RE: Bolded part: This is 100% easier to do on a bike than it is on a car. Cyclists can see the oncoming intersection much better than a car can. They also can stop much quicker than cars. If they will arrive at the stop sign faster than a car will (which MUST stop at a stop sign no matter what), they have the right to proceed through the intersection without stopping (under this rule).

Oh, yeah I meant I do that on a bike; I stop fully in a car. But at what point are "other cars present" is what I mean. Just seems like such a grey area.

 

[lastflowers]

So he was acting exactly like a car, which people seem to want, yet you are mad that he didn't break the law and act like a pedestrian instead, which people are complaining about.

If a bicyclist is taking up the only lane driving 5 miles an hour while the road is designed to ride 40 miles an hour, the bicyclist who is holding up traffic is more of a danger to the rest of the people on the road than the cars are to the bicyclist

A polite automobile owner would allow the others to pass by pulling to the side. The bicyclist is being the danger to safety, not the automobile owners.

 

[poppabk]

When I drive (UK) if I stick to the speed limit i'll very quickly see a lot of cars lining up behind me. First in line will generally be an Audi or BMW, trying to find out what's on my backseat.

Happens most often in the 20mph zones we have introduced recently here. The signs might as well be invisible

The difference is that no-one would want to do away with those speed limits because we all know that some jerk would be doing 70 through residential streets with impunity.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

A bicyclist is between a walker and a driver. So if a walker doesn't stop, and a driver stops, a bicyclist should yield. Clean and simple logic.

 

[Bsigg12]

Will cyclists actually yield or just use this as a pass to keep going as if there are no signs in place? I already see that nonsense with stop lights around our office in Denver and have seen a few cyclists get hit for trucking through a red light with no regard to what else is happening.

 

[The Jackdog]

Will cyclists actually yield or just use this as a pass to keep going as if there are no signs in place? I already see that nonsense with stop lights around our office in Denver and have seen a few cyclists get hit for trucking through a red light with no regard to what else is happening.

seen it before.

also learned that if youre in your lane, and a bike comes filtering up the street and you open your door and he falls over, zero fault of your own.

some biker in philly tried it, buddy popped his door open cause he was spitting gum out at a red light. biker is flying between lanes, nailed by the door. cop put all the fault on the biker.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

This is fairly freaking pointless given that bicyclists in the city already just blow through stop signs and traffic lights.

 

[Parch]

If you can get past your hatred for cyclists, this makes sense. When a cyclists can maintain his momentum it helps the flow of traffic.
If your argument is how come they can and I can't, it's because a motorized vehicle provides an easier means of acceleration that a bicycle doesn't have.

Bicycles are not going anywhere. You better accept that sharing the road is a reality that is not going away. If traffic laws can make bicycles fit in better, then it needs to be done. It's not favoritism, it's logical street planning.

 

[Dude Abides]

This is fairly freaking pointless given that bicyclists in the city already just blow through stop signs and traffic lights.

Yeah but they want to do it without the infinitesimal risk of a ticket. Considering how unsafe many cyclists are, I don't think they should have any special privileges.

 

[outunderthestars]

you get mad at people for generalizing bikers and then do the same thing with drivers.

no, everyone in their car is not speeding and texting at the same time.

A: I have not gotten upset about generalizing about cyclists, nor did I say that everyone was speeding on their phone.

That said, the vast majority of roads have an average speed that is above the speed limit.

 

[Vilam]

What? FUCK no!

You want to be on the road, then follow the same laws as any other vehicle. Fuck bicyclists who roll through intersections who think the laws only apply to them when it's convenient.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

Yeah but they want to do it without the infinitesimal risk of a ticket. Considering how unsafe many cyclists are, I don't think they should have any special privileges.

Which is honestly why this thing should get shot down in flames. The ongoing war between cyclists and drivers in the city doesn't need the additional fuel. If anything they should be going the opposite direction with the legislation but it would never pass muster and wouldn't be enforced. I love biking and driving, but I would never do the former in SF and hate when I have to do that latter.

 

[Zoe]

If you can get past your hatred for cyclists, this makes sense. When a cyclists can maintain his momentum it helps the flow of traffic.
If your argument is how come they can and I can't, it's because a motorized vehicle provides an easier means of acceleration that a bicycle doesn't have.

Wouldn't loss of momentum only make a difference if other vehicles are present? Do you support yielding even when there are others at the intersection?

 

[GamingOblivion]

The anger towards cyclists in this thread scare me. I can't wait for some asshole to hit me out of anger on the road.

 

[thezerofire]

If a bicyclist is taking up the only lane driving 5 miles an hour while the road is designed to ride 40 miles an hour, the bicyclist who is holding up traffic is more of a danger to the rest of the people on the road than the cars are to the bicyclist

A polite automobile owner would allow the others to pass by pulling to the side. The bicyclist is being the danger to safety, not the automobile owners.

A cyclist is perfectly entitled to the same use of a lane as a car is. It's pretty ridiculous to claim that the cyclist is any sort of danger to people inside a 2000lb steel cage with airbags than that same car is to a cyclist with only a helmet.

The anger towards cyclists in this thread scare me. I can't wait for some asshole to hit me out of anger on the road.

I know it's anecdotal but every cyclist I know in SF has been hit by a car. None of the cars ever stopped. People just don't care about cyclists at all

 

[Arkeband]

The anger towards cyclists in this thread scare me. I can't wait for some asshole to hit me out of anger on the road.

I think the antagonistic attitude you're displaying here is why people tend to find bikers insufferable.

That and it's sketchy as hell sitting in traffic with people you could accidentally cripple are weaving in and out of your field of vision.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What? FUCK no!

You want to be on the road, then follow the same laws as any other vehicle. Fuck bicyclists who roll through intersections who think the laws only apply to them when it's convenient.

Very few vehicles are operating in a completely lawful manner. I hate this fallacy that bike riders are failing at lawfulness where others aren't, especially with such wild numbers to quantify how much carnage cars are actually causing.

Ride with me on any given day and you'll have to deal with at least one motorist oblivious or purposely blowing through a stop sign and nearly colliding with you.

 

[thezerofire]

Wouldn't loss of momentum only make a difference if other vehicles are present? Do you support yielding even when there are others at the intersection?

Loss of momentum makes a difference when there's a car behind you. You don't need to yield to someone behind you so you'd just keep going

 

[Pacbois]

In Paris, cyclists are now allowed to run red lights if they're turning right. It's actually not that bad of an idea come to think of it but yeah some assholes are just sprinting into a pedestrian crossing while doing so.

 

[Salmonax]

Cyclists in SF are the absolute worst assholes on the road. They run red lights and stop signs and glare at you when you have the right of way. Bastards.

Yeah, some can be pretty awful. Many alternate between behaving like cars and pedestrians as it suits them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Should not be legalized. I've personally witnessed several car accidents with bikes, all of which was due to bicyclists running stop signs.

 

[Zoe]

Loss of momentum makes a difference when there's a car behind you. You don't need to yield to someone behind you so you'd just keep going

I don't really see that going over well when cars and bikes are allowed to be side by side in the same lane.

 

[thezerofire]

I don't really see that going over well when cars and bikes are allowed to be side by side in the same lane.

they're not supposed to be doing that to begin with. bikes are supposed to take the full lane

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Should not be legalized. I've personally witnessed several car accidents with bikes, all of which was due to bicyclists running stop signs.

I mean, speed limits kept going up even as more speeding crashes happened. Why should we draw the line at modifying laws just for bikes?

 

[Robot Pants]

It's absurd.

Bicycles are vehicles and should be treated as such.

.

 

[genjiZERO]

seen it before.

also learned that if youre in your lane, and a bike comes filtering up the street and you open your door and he falls over, zero fault of your own.

some biker in philly tried it, buddy popped his door open cause he was spitting gum out at a red light. biker is flying between lanes, nailed by the door. cop put all the fault on the biker.

That would be determined by jurisdiction. If you're in a jurisdiction where you are allowed to pass between lanes then it would be the driers fault. Also, regardless you still might have a civil suit because there would be a question of reasonability which isn't absolute in most jurisdictions.

 

[NullPointer]

Bikes being able to yield makes sense - they aren't designed to stop and go the way cars are and instead rely more upon momentum, and bicyclists have much better situational awareness than drivers.

That said, I think cops should continue to crack down on bicyclists blasting through stop signs or otherwise not heeding the applicable laws of the road.

 

[sir_kevith]

If you can get past your hatred for cyclists, this makes sense. When a cyclists can maintain his momentum it helps the flow of traffic.
If your argument is how come they can and I can't, it's because a motorized vehicle provides an easier means of acceleration that a bicycle doesn't have.

Bicycles are not going anywhere. You better accept that sharing the road is a reality that is not going away. If traffic laws can make bicycles fit in better, then it needs to be done. It's not favoritism, it's logical street planning.

You need to run the bureau of transportation my friend!

 

[ShowDog]

If this law worked as written it sounds like a fine idea, but it's more likely that bicyclists will misunderstand the law and feel entitled to just cruise through crowded 4-way stops without ever stopping to let others take their turn because they believe they have the right of way and everyone else needs to yield to them. I already see them do this regularly.

At an empty intersection it sounds fine to let the bicyclists continue without stopping. I know technically that is what the law is talking about, but people are too fucking stupid.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Meanwhile

http://www.techinsider.io/oslo-bans-cars-from-its-city-center-2015-10

Cars are no longer welcome in downtown Oslo.

Oslo plans to ban all cars from its city center by 2019, Reuters reports.

It will also build more than 35 miles of bike lanes by 2019 and invest heavily in public transport.

The permanent ban will affect the 350,000 or so car owners in the Norwegian capital.

Oslo's car ban is the largest of its kind, says Paul Steely White, the executive director of Transportation Alternatives, an organization that supported New York City's Citi Bikes and advocates for car-free cities.

"The fact that Oslo is moving forward so rapidly is encouraging, and I think it will be inspiring if they are successful," he tells Tech Insider.

The car ban in Oslo will reduce pollution and make it a safer city for those on foot.

"We want to make it better for pedestrians, cyclists. It will be better for shops and everyone," Lan Marie Nguyen Berg, lead negotiator for the Green Party in Oslo, tells Reuters.

Madrid set a similar precedent last year, when the city announced an ambitious plan to kick cars out by 2020. Madrid's ban, larger than Oslo's, will cover 500 acres of the city. Other European cities have worked toward similar objectives but not to this scale and speed.

Paris banned cars from its major landmarks, like the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame Cathedral, last month. If commuters in Milan leave their cars at home, the government will reward them with public transit vouchers. Copenhagen introduced pedestrian zones in the 1960s, and car-free zones slowly followed over the last half-century.

The future is not going to be personal automobiles. A lot of angry people in this thread are going to have to adjust faster than you think.

 

[titiklabingapat]

You know, for a board full of supposed progressives and pro-science posters, the amount of anti-bike posts on GAF are surprising. The irrationality is astounding.

Studies after studies have shown that bicycles are safer, healthier and can move more people efficiently in large numbers in our denser places more than any other form of transportation except maybe the subways. And almost any laws that require any sort of mandatory things to a bicyclists ends up hurting people on bikes and those around them worse than if those laws do not exist.

 

[NullPointer]

The future is not going to be personal automobiles. A lot of angry people in this thread are going to have to adjust faster than you think.

San Francisco is already a place where having a car is a pretty big headache. If its not the long searches for decent parking, its paying exorbitant fees to rent a garage space, and then of course the traffic and congestion. You can flip a coin every day for each street you take on your commute - chances are high that it'll be at least semi-blocked for some construction or another.

 

[Dude Abides]

I mean, speed limits kept going up even as more speeding crashes happened. Why should we draw the line at modifying laws just for bikes?

This thread is about a plan to modify laws for bikes, not to loosen the laws for motorists, so it's hard to see what your point is.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This thread is about a plan to modify laws for bikes, not to loosen the laws for motorists, so it's hard to see what your point is.

A lot of people angry at bike riders talk like we change laws or infrastructure based on merit. Drivers have never been held to this standard. Laws have been loosened to use that method of transportation despite rampant lawlessness, so why would we change now with bikes?

 

[Dude Abides]

A lot of people angry at bike riders talk like we change laws or infrastructure based on merit. Drivers have never been held to this standard. Laws have been loosened to use that method of transportation despite rampant lawlessness, so why would we change now with bikes?

So we have made bad decisions in this area in the past so who cares if we make a bad one here too? Is that seriously the argument you're making?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So we have made bad decisions in this area in the past so who cares if we make a bad one here too? Is that seriously the argument you're making?

I'm saying we should all be into changing bike laws and infrastructure because it's sensical, not because we're waiting for a hypothetical day when bike riders somehow earn so much respect that drivers give them anything.

It's a commentary on the way anti-bike people discuss urban planning like they're the road's gatekeepers, not a suggestion that loosening restrictions should continue perpetually or something.

 

[Apath]

I am in favor of urban planning creating more bike-friendly roads and infrastructure. I am against modifying laws so bikes can blow through stop signs because "cars do it sometimes too," despite nobody here suggesting we allow cars to treat stop signs as yield signs.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Anyone else expect a lot more things like this:

Replace the pedestrians with cyclists.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I am in favor of urban planning creating more bike-friendly roads and infrastructure. I am against modifying laws so bikes can blow through stop signs because "cars do it sometimes too," despite nobody here suggesting we allow cars to treat stop signs as yield signs.

The activists are suggesting it based on physics and how the current laws encourage bad behavior because following the law breaks traffic patterns.

 

[NullPointer]

... despite nobody here suggesting we allow cars to treat stop signs as yield signs.

If all cars were of the Flintstones variety, they would.

 

[i3allistic]

Calm down folks, the Mayor already say he gonna veto it .....also Supervisor Campos always writing these crazy laws .....just like his eviction law was strike down by judges recently