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Scientists make discovery that could rewrite history

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http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630165

Here's an excerpt:

In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.

Here's the whole thing:

Decoded at last: the 'classical holy grail' that may rewrite the history of the world
Scientists begin to unlock the secrets of papyrus scraps bearing long-lost words by the literary giants of Greece and Rome
By David Keys and Nicholas Pyke

17 April 2005

For more than a century, it has caused excitement and frustration in equal measure - a collection of Greek and Roman writings so vast it could redraw the map of classical civilisation. If only it was legible.

Now, in a breakthrough described as the classical equivalent of finding the holy grail, Oxford University scientists have employed infra-red technology to open up the hoard, known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, and with it the prospect that hundreds of lost Greek comedies, tragedies and epic poems will soon be revealed.

In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.

The original papyrus documents, discovered in an ancient rubbish dump in central Egypt, are often meaningless to the naked eye - decayed, worm-eaten and blackened by the passage of time. But scientists using the new photographic technique, developed from satellite imaging, are bringing the original writing back into view. Academics have hailed it as a development which could lead to a 20 per cent increase in the number of great Greek and Roman works in existence. Some are even predicting a "second Renaissance".

Christopher Pelling, Regius Professor of Greek at the University of Oxford, described the new works as "central texts which scholars have been speculating about for centuries".

Professor Richard Janko, a leading British scholar, formerly of University College London, now head of classics at the University of Michigan, said: "Normally we are lucky to get one such find per decade." One discovery in particular, a 30-line passage from the poet Archilocos, of whom only 500 lines survive in total, is described as "invaluable" by Dr Peter Jones, author and co-founder of the Friends of Classics campaign.

The papyrus fragments were discovered in historic dumps outside the Graeco-Egyptian town of Oxyrhynchus ("city of the sharp-nosed fish") in central Egypt at the end of the 19th century. Running to 400,000 fragments, stored in 800 boxes at Oxford's Sackler Library, it is the biggest hoard of classical manuscripts in the world.

The previously unknown texts, read for the first time last week, include parts of a long-lost tragedy - the Epigonoi ("Progeny") by the 5th-century BC Greek playwright Sophocles; part of a lost novel by the 2nd-century Greek writer Lucian; unknown material by Euripides; mythological poetry by the 1st-century BC Greek poet Parthenios; work by the 7th-century BC poet Hesiod; and an epic poem by Archilochos, a 7th-century successor of Homer, describing events leading up to the Trojan War. Additional material from Hesiod, Euripides and Sophocles almost certainly await discovery.

Oxford academics have been working alongside infra-red specialists from Brigham Young University, Utah. Their operation is likely to increase the number of great literary works fully or partially surviving from the ancient Greek world by up to a fifth. It could easily double the surviving body of lesser work - the pulp fiction and sitcoms of the day.

"The Oxyrhynchus collection is of unparalleled importance - especially now that it can be read fully and relatively quickly," said the Oxford academic directing the research, Dr Dirk Obbink. "The material will shed light on virtually every aspect of life in Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, and, by extension, in the classical world as a whole."

The breakthrough has also caught the imagination of cultural commentators. Melvyn Bragg, author and presenter, said: "It's the most fantastic news. There are two things here. The first is how enormously influential the Greeks were in science and the arts. The second is how little of their writing we have. The prospect of having more to look at is wonderful."

Bettany Hughes, historian and broadcaster, who has presented TV series including Mysteries of the Ancients and The Spartans, said: "Egyptian rubbish dumps were gold mines. The classical corpus is like a jigsaw puzzle picked up at a jumble sale - many more pieces missing than are there. Scholars have always mourned the loss of works of genius - plays by Sophocles, Sappho's other poems, epics. These discoveries promise to change the textual map of the golden ages of Greece and Rome."

When it has all been read - mainly in Greek, but sometimes in Latin, Hebrew, Coptic, Syriac, Aramaic, Arabic, Nubian and early Persian - the new material will probably add up to around five million words. Texts deciphered over the past few days will be published next month by the London-based Egypt Exploration Society, which financed the discovery and owns the collection.

A 21st-century technique reveals antiquity's secrets

Since it was unearthed more than a century ago, the hoard of documents known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri has fascinated classical scholars. There are 400,000 fragments, many containing text from the great writers of antiquity. But only a small proportion have been read so far. Many were illegible.

Now scientists are using multi-spectral imaging techniques developed from satellite technology to read the papyri at Oxford University's Sackler Library. The fragments, preserved between sheets of glass, respond to the infra-red spectrum - ink invisible to the naked eye can be seen and photographed.

The fragments form part of a giant "jigsaw puzzle" to be reassembled. Missing "pieces" can be supplied from quotations by later authors, and grammatical analysis.

Key words from the master of Greek tragedy

Speaker A: . . . gobbling the whole, sharpening the flashing iron.

Speaker B: And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep.

Speaker A: And he is gluing together the chariot's rail.

These words were written by the Greek dramatist Sophocles, and are the only known fragment we have of his lost play Epigonoi (literally "The Progeny"), the story of the siege of Thebes. Until last week's hi-tech analysis of ancient scripts at Oxford University, no one knew of their existence, and this is the first time they have been published.

Sophocles (495-405 BC), was a giant of the golden age of Greek civilisation, a dramatist who work alongside and competed with Aeschylus, Euripides and Aristophanes.

His best-known work is Oedipus Rex, the play that later gave its name to the Freudian theory, in which the hero kills his father and marries his mother - in a doomed attempt to escape the curse he brings upon himself. His other masterpieces include Antigone and Electra.

Sophocles was the cultured son of a wealthy Greek merchant, living at the height of the Greek empire. An accomplished actor, he performed in many of his own plays. He also served as a priest and sat on the committee that administered Athens. A great dramatic innovator, he wrote more than 120 plays, but only seven survive in full.

Last week's remarkable finds also include work by Euripides, Hesiod and Lucian, plus a large and particularly significant paragraph of text from the Elegies, by Archilochos, a Greek poet of the 7th century BC.


17 April 2005 19:26
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Hello, I'm posting again.
 
Um...what exactly will be gained by any of this info besides changing some records from the past? Call me when they unearth Atlantis and its alien technology. PEACE.
 
Pimpwerx said:
Um...what exactly will be gained by any of this info besides changing some records from the past? Call me when they unearth Atlantis and its alien technology. PEACE.

Let me have your phone number. When I discover Atlantis you'll be the first person I call.
 
Oxford academics have been working alongside infra-red specialists from Brigham Young University, Utah.
It'll be funny to see whether BYU ends up cutting resources and personel of its physics department like it did for genetics research.
 
olimario said:
Very interesting.
And FMT has turned into an unfunny demi.
It is indeed interesting.

However, since Demi is unfunny to begin with, that means that FMT is funny. Holy crap!
 
Pimpwerx said:
Um...what exactly will be gained by any of this info besides changing some records from the past? Call me when they unearth Atlantis and its alien technology. PEACE.
Hopefully an intact first generation Bible with proof that Jesus was a gay black man? Man, that would be AWESOME.
 
ladykillers.jpg

"What ho! The grandeur of God!"
 
Hitokage said:
It'll be funny to see whether BYU ends up cutting resources and personel of its physics department like it did for genetics research.

It'll be interesting to see if BYU doctors the translation to prophecy Joseph Smith.
 
olimario said:
It'll be interesting to see if BYU doctors the translation to prophecy Joseph Smith.
I'm not going to assume foul play by BYU researchers(after all, they don't have a record of being in perfect lock-step despite their admin), but if I were... they'd attempt to paint early christianity as what the mormon church claims it was: more like itself.

Anyway, I highly look forward to what turns up.
 
Chipopo said:
woah, this is actually pretty exciting.
Yeah, this sounds really interesting. I keep hoping that some day a hidden vault of the Great Library in Alexandria is found stuffed full of scrolls or some similar great discovery to rival the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Speaker A: . . . gobbling the whole, sharpening the flashing iron.

Speaker B: And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep.

Speaker A: And he is gluing together the chariot's rail.
Sophocles' literary agent is going to be bummed that Soph didn't notice how badly movies based on historic wars have been doing lately. Troy, King Arthur, Alexander... it's a bad time to come out with another spears-and-sandals title. :\
 
At an absolute minimum, more work from Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes and Aeschylus is great news
 
The real question is, when the papyrus containing another part of the epic cycle (the stories about the trojan war, among other things) come out, will the makers of Troy be accused of not following canon they didn't even know existed?
 
Raoul Duke said:
Hopefully an intact first generation Bible with proof that Jesus was a gay black man? Man, that would be AWESOME.
That would be the greatest thing to happen to humanity since, like, fire.

And it would also be the most entertaining.
 
Haha, i wondered how long it would take before more christian bashing took place.

What if all this does is give us more earlier, accurate, but essentially the same copies of the gospels further pushing the manuscriptual evidence even closer to the realm of eyewitness accounts?

Seriously, it would be more then mildly entertaining to watch GAF respond to that.


Either way, great find, and very exciting, I cant wait to hear what comes out of this.
 
I want to read Electra what was that about?
I read something last night that had the term "Electra Complex" and I was lost (googled it :))

This is good news
 
Link648099 said:
Haha, i wondered how long it would take before more christian bashing took place.

What if all this does is give us more earlier, accurate, but essentially the same copies of the gospels further pushing the manuscriptual evidence even closer to the realm of eyewitness accounts?

Seriously, it would be more then mildly entertaining to watch GAF respond to that.


Either way, great find, and very exciting, I cant wait to hear what comes out of this.

Yeah, that'll make God and his magic powers real. :lol
 
Ecrofirt said:
So if the do find gospels or whatever, what do you think the chances are that the church won't dismiss them?


You assume that all the gospels found should also be equally used/assummed to be "scripture", but thats false. The four canonical gospels were the earliest gospels, and there is strong, early historical tradition attesting to their eyewitness. All these other "gospels" that you hear about, the gospel of thomas, of peter, of paul, of mary, etc (there are about 40 of them) where all known to the early church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, but were all known to be what is called pseudographical in nature, or in other words, they are very late writings writtin by someone who was actually removed from the events that person was describing by several hundred years, not a few decades like the four gospels are.

Thus, as with the science of textual criticism anyways, the earliest are usually seen to be the most accurate.

Of course, thats what you get when you disregard manuscriptual scholarship in favor of The Da Vinci Code. :lol
 
sweet! I really have nothing more to add to the thread and, in fact, I'm only typing this because I din't want my only post in this thread to consist of tthe word sweet followed by an exclamation point.
 
Lemurnator said:
In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.
Sweet, I love fiction.
 
I don't watch TV much at all anymore, but I randomly left it on PBS a few days ago and saw a program on this stuff (not these particular scrolls but some that were buried somewhere in Greece after a volcanic eruption sometime in early AD), I actually stopped to watch it all. The way they used the space technology was amazing, and it was interesting and unfortunate that in the past other rough methods had been used to try to unwrap and read the scrolls and many of the best preserved ones were lost...

There are a ton of scrolls, and some say even more may be buried, but unfortunately some don't want to dig because they feel they cannot preserve the ancient structures...
 
Pimpwerx said:
Um...what exactly will be gained by any of this info besides changing some records from the past? Call me when they unearth Atlantis and its alien technology. PEACE.

The gist of the article wasn't concerned with changing records from the past. It was more or less about the effects that this discovery would have upon the amount of classical literature that we have, of which we do not have much.
 
Link648099 said:
That's rich, heres another armchair bible critic who doesnt know what he's talking about.

:lol :lol

Read this: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nttextcrit.html


Also, read my posts in the thread topic "Does God Exist" and then get back to me. :D

You mean my thread; Proof of God's existence?

Well if you want to start it up again, you completely failed to explain what proof of God there is from a secular point of view.

What? Are you going to argue through ontology? Well guess what; my Supremely Perfect Girlfriend doesn't fucking exist, no matter how many arbitarily perfect qualities I assign to her, including that of existence.

Or what about argument by design? What the fuck am I still doing with an appendix?

Or maybe you want to just argue that simply because there must be a creator that the christian God is that creator; even accepting there is a creator, where are the lines you can draw from that idea to the idea of a Christian God; one that is independent of Christian teachings...

that is to say, you can take evidence and jam words on top of them retrospectively in order to make them seem like it fits (words and apologies that seem to change with the times; as more and more is discovered about how things actually work)... but what forward proof is there in the bible or any christian teachings of how the world works? It didn't even tell us the world was round, travelling around a sun for fucksake... hell it even goes to mention that the world was created in 7 days. Whose 7 days? Moreover the order of creation doesn't even in the slightest conform with what we've discovered via science and real deductive logic of that said science of how the universe came about.

Hell, you didn't even respond to my atheist alternative to creation argument properly, instead of responding to the meat of the idea, you attack the wording, trying to deflect the problem as a semantic battle.

To paraphrase myself; a nothing that has a chance to create something is not a nothing, but rather something with the chance to create something (or rather bring something about), but devoid of any other meaningful characteristics, such as sentience, or even color, feel and what not. OTOH, I can't myself bridge the gap between this been an idea and it been the absolute reality; even though it may fit perfectly in a retrospective sense, I can't prove that that is what has happened.
 
Writings dealing with the events in the Bible aren't necessarily scripture. Clement's writings were based heavily on Hebrews, but his writings weren't divinely inspired.
 
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