Security attempts to stop shoplifters, gets assaulted by passerby.

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Beerman462 said:
I can understand his actions more if it's his store, but either way once the thief is shown to be determined to get away and they are off your property it's time to stop pursuing. I mean you can follow them all day until you can get the cops involved, but is it worth it?

How hands on are they allowed to be? Tackle, batons, guns, tazers...we can't even trust cops to be even handed and you want to give power to minimumwage security?
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1.) Security is allowed to pursue people stealing things from a business. It's literally part of their job. They are allowed to both attempt to get the items back, and detain a person until police arrive.

2.) Are you really comparing what this guy did to fucking guns? No, they can't assault someone. But in this case, this man was assaulted first and well within his rights to hit back if he felt inclined in self-defense, which he didn't because he was outnumbered and still got hit anyways. The woman was swinging on him before they even got 2 feet outside the store, and all he didn't the entire ordeal was try to get the stolen item back.

Edit: Also like one of the comments mentions, isn't committing a crime(assault and theft) like that with a baby strapped to you considered child endangerment?
 
Beerman462 said:
He really shouldn't be puting his hands on anyone, because of where it can lead. If the thief is determined to leave you really shouldn't be able to stop them.
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You can feel that way but I'm just talking about legality. It's within his right to try and physically detain the person.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
1.) Security is allowed to pursue people stealing things from a business. It's literally part of their job. They are allowed to both attempt to get the items back, and detain a person until police arrive.

2.) Are you really comparing what this guy did to fucking guns? No, they can't assault someone. But in this case, this man was assaulted first and well within his rights to hit back if he felt inclined in self-defense, which he didn't because he was outnumbered and still got hit anyways.
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No I'm asking the question of where do you draw the line of what security is or isn't allowed to do to detain somebody. Can they grab their arm and hold them until cops arrive? Sure. I guess if they can hold on while getting assaulted until the cops arrive, you can get the thief on two charges.

Bam Bam Baklava said:
You can feel that way but I'm just talking about legality. It's within his right to try and physically detain the person.
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Does knee capping someone count as physical detainment?
 
The potential danger to small children was reason enough to make further physical confrontation a definite bad decision. Say all you want about what security guards have the right to do, the issue is with what he didn't have the sense to not do. In the vast majority of cases the security are contractually prohibited from physical confrontation and pursuit due to liability issues anyway.
 
Beerman462 said:
No I'm asking the question of where do you draw the line of what security is or isn't allowed to do to detain somebody. Can they grab their arm and hold them until cops arrive? Sure. I guess if they can hold on while getting assaulted until the cops arrive, you can get the thief on two charges.



Does knee capping someone count as physical detainment?
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Reasonable non-deadly force is allowed.
 
Shamrock7r said:
Why?
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Best Case Scenario? You catch a petty thief, charges are made, etc.
Worst Case Scenario: Security guard dies or other people get harmed because the confrontation goes physical, escalates, etc.

Follow/confront inside the store, leave it be once they're outside or call the police. That's how loss prevention rolls. It protects everybody.
 
LaserBuddha said:
The potential danger to small children was reason enough to make further physical confrontation a definite bad decision. Say all you want about what security guards have the right to do, the issue is with what he didn't have the sense to not do. In the vast majority of cases the security are contractually prohibited from physical confrontation and pursuit due to liability issues anyway.
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Should have used a choke hold

Bam Bam Baklava said:
Reasonable non-deadly force is allowed.
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Is a choke hold "reasonable"?
 
Bam Bam Baklava said:
You can feel that way but I'm just talking about legality. It's within his right to try and physically detain the person.
Click to expand...

Only in some countries. In Australia a security guard can detain you physically, but only under incredibly limited criteria. Makes me glad when I work security that I know a store cannot ask me to do stupid shit like this guy.
 
BronsonLee said:
Best Case Scenario? You catch a petty thief, charges are made, etc.
Worst Case Scenario: Security guard dies or other people get harmed because the confrontation goes physical, escalates, etc.

Follow/confront inside the store, leave it be once they're outside or call the police. That's how loss prevention rolls. It protects everybody.
Click to expand...

He said "If the thief is determined to leave" which I assumed included them trying to leave the store.
 
Any of the retail establishments I worked at would have fired that guy the same day.

I've always understood it to be that you cannot physically detain someone under any circumstances, and once they're out of the store you let them go. Chasing someone down and putting your hands on them is way outside of your pay grade.

It's been 10 years since I last worked retail, and it's not like the reasons you DON'T engage someone physically have changed, but maybe it's not like that anymore. I know if I was working in loss prevention, I wouldn't touch anybody. Ever. That can go real south, real fast.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Is there some part of detaining someone without physically assaulting them that you don't understand?
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Ok, scenario time.

I'm 6'5" 300lbs and you can't just stop me physically with out a weapon. Now what?

or

I'm a 5' 100lb kid you grab my arm and while your struggling to detain me you accidently break my arm.

What part of "detain" someone isn't as easy as stop" I'm a security guard and I'm going to hold you gently until cops arrive" do you not understand.
 
Shamrock7r said:
There also people who would argue it's not okay to defend your property in any physical manner whatsoever if you are being robbed. Those crazies on both ends of the spectrum man...
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It isn't
Property is just property, meaningless shit that can be replaced, it's never worth harming anyone over, ever.

If someone steals your stuff you call the police, you don't go vigilante on them.
 
Chie Satonaka said:
Any of the retail establishments I worked at would have fired that guy the same day.

I've always understood it to be that you cannot physically detain someone under any circumstances, and once they're out of the store you let them go. Chasing someone down and putting your hands on them is way outside of your pay grade.

It's been 10 years since I last worked retail, and it's not like the reasons you DON'T engage someone physically have changed, but maybe it's not like that anymore. I know if I was working in loss prevention, I wouldn't touch anybody. Ever. That can go real south, real fast.
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Assuming that you're in the US, the law generally allows for shopkeepers to detain people suspected of shoplifting. However, the growing trend seems to be to counsel employees not to exercise this prerogative for a multitude of reasons including (1) potential liability if they wrongfully and unreasonably detain an innocent shopper and (2) risk of injury to the employee (and all the resulting headaches for the business that accompany an employee injured on the job).
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Is there some part of detaining someone without physically assaulting them that you don't understand?
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Except if the person walks past the security guard after being asked to come with them it's going to become a physical struggle and at that point where does it become assault if the thief is just trying to run away? Back when I worked retail in college one of the stores tried doing this. They would "detain" by asking them to go into the security room. If they bolted there isn't much they could do. Police would be called either way. Other store (best buy) wouldn't do this. Just called the police and hoped they got a description of car and license plate
 
SneakyStephan said:
It isn't
Property is just property, meaningless shit that can be replaced, it's never worth harming anyone over, ever.
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Sorry I disagree. If the intent is to retrieve your property while using reasonable force if necessary, then I have no problem with that.

Beerman462 said:
Ok, scenario time.

I'm 6'5" 300lbs and you can't just stop me physically with out a weapon. Now what?

or

I'm a 5' 100lb kid you grab my arm and while your struggling to detain me you accidently break my arm.

What part of "detain" someone isn't as easy as stop" I'm a security guard and I'm going to hold you gently until cops arrive" do you not understand.
Click to expand...

Your original post was worded in a way that made it seem like if the person being robbed physically in any way tried to stop the robber, they were wrong on moral and/or legal grounds. From that standpoint, I feel you are wrong. If you are arguing that it's wrong because it isn't worth the risk to the victim to stop the robber because of what may happen to them, then I guess that is a subjective argument.
 
mre said:
Assuming that you're in the US, the law generally allows for shopkeepers to detain people suspected of shoplifting. However, the growing trend seems to be to counsel employees not to exercise this prerogative for a multitude of reasons including (1) potential liability if they wrongfully and unreasonably detain an innocent shopper and (2) risk of injury to the employee (and all the resulting headaches for the business) that accompany an employee injured on the job.
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Yeah, I'm from the US, and yeah, the reasons you provided are the exact reasons we were just told not to do it. Our LP guys at all the places I worked at were trained to block the exits if they could, but none of this crazy put your hands on someone physically stuff.

Of course, the woman shouldn't be shoplifting, but the moment she left the door, they should have just called the police.
 
mre said:
Assuming that you're in the US, the law generally allows for shopkeepers to detain people suspected of shoplifting. However, the growing trend seems to be to counsel employees not to exercise this prerogative for a multitude of reasons including (1) potential liability if they wrongfully and unreasonably detain an innocent shopper and (2) risk of injury to the employee (and all the resulting headaches for the business) that accompany an employee injured on the job.
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Just looked up my laws and it needs to be a felony. Pretty sure unless you're stealing
or downloading
a car, theft doesnt warrant that. Makes me glad.


Sad how many people are saying they're fine with private security having this kind of power.
 
Chie Satonaka said:
Of course, the woman shouldn't be shoplifting, but the moment she left the door, they should have just called the police.
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Pretty much. Every now and then, you hear a news story about someone who works at retail getting fired because they caught a shoplifter. The reason is because they usually physically get involved outside the store, thus breaking policy/opening up the store to litigation.

If they're out of the store, call the cops.
 
Beerman462 said:
Ok, scenario time.

I'm 6'5" 300lbs and you can't just stop me physically with out a weapon. Now what?

or

I'm a 5' 100lb kid you grab my arm and while your struggling to detain me you accidently break my arm.

What part of "detain" someone isn't as easy as stop" I'm a security guard and I'm going to hold you gently until cops arrive" do you not understand.
Click to expand...

Wow you are pretty (edit: handsome!) aren't you?

Security guards are able to detain people, it's part of their job. You're acting like it's impossible to detain someone without one of the people getting absolutely wrecked in the process, it's not. For your first scenario, the guard would try to hold the guy and probably call for another guard to assist until the police arrive. If he was alone, probably try to hold the guy and fail, letting him go and following until police arrived.

For the second scenario, the guard would plainly hold the kid WITHOUT grabbing his/her arm hard enough to break it, which is apparently impossible in the warped world you base your opinions in.

Is the man in the video stupid for not letting go? Maybe. That's up for interpretation. But blaming him when he's the one who got assaulted(doing his job) like he was asking for it is absolutely ridiculous.

Shamrock7r said:
Your original post was worded in a way that made it seem like if the person being robbed physically in any way tried to stop the robber, they were wrong on moral and/or legal grounds. From that standpoint, I feel you are wrong. If you are arguing that it's wrong because it isn't worth the risk to the victim to stop the robber because of what may happen to them, then I guess that is a subjective argument.
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Exactly. I'm going to put a mask on and strap a baby to my chest so that when I steal things, people aren't allowed to try and reach and grab the item back because that's too close to using a gun and murdering me.

Dead Man said:
That's not really needed mate. Come on. And no, lots of security jobs are there as a deterrent and someone to witness events and report to police, not to detain people.
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I take offense to victim blaming and false-equivalences to try to explain people assaulting this guy for holding on to a pair of shoes, with him never hitting anyone back.

Let's not get up in arms over a woman stealing items with a baby on her chest, or her friend hitting the guy relentlessly, or people taking the side of the thieves and sucker-punching him in the face. No, let's blame him for choosing to hold on to the shoes instead of letting go. Let's also pretend there is no way to detain people without using weapons.

I apologize for the thick comment, but everything else I said I stand by.

EDIT: And depending on where this was and what position that guy holds, if he doesn't have any grounds on which to detain someone, everything I said goes out the window. Then he should have merely observed and reported, and I would agree with some here.

Beerman462 said:
.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to behave like it's personal, it's not.
 
FunkyMunkey said:
Wow you are pretty fucking thick aren't you?

Security guards are able to detain people, it's part of their job. You're acting like it's impossible to detain someone without one of the people getting absolutely wrecked in the process, it's not. For your first scenario, the guard would try to hold the guy and probably call for another guard to assist until the police arrive. If he was alone, probably try to hold the guy and fail, letting him go and following until police arrived.

For the second scenario, the guard would plainly hold the kid WITHOUT grabbing his/her arm hard enough to break it, which is apparently impossible in the warped world you base your opinions in.

Is the man in the video stupid for not letting go? Maybe. That's up for interpretation. But blaming him when he's the one who got assaulted(doing his job) like he was asking for it is absolutely ridiculous.



Exactly. I'm going to put a mask on and strap a baby to my chest so that when I steal things, people aren't allowed to try and reach and grab the item back because that's too close to using a gun and murdering me.
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That's not really needed mate. Come on. And no, lots of security jobs are there as a deterrent and someone to witness events and report to police, not to detain people.
 
Guy shouldn't have followed after she turned the corner. However, I see nothing wrong beforehand.

Those that attacked him need to be arrested and charged as well as the shoplifters.
 
Surface of Me said:
Just looked up my laws and it needs to be a felony. Pretty sure unless you're stealing
or downloading
a car, theft doesnt warrant that. Makes me glad.


Sad how many people are saying they're fine with private security having this kind of power.
Click to expand...
Laws will vary by state. For example, in New York there is no such requirement: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/GBS/12-B/218 . And, incidentally, downloading a car, or videotaping a showing of a film containing a car, is specifically accounted for by NY law. :p
 
Shamrock7r said:
Sorry I disagree. If the intent is to retrieve your property while using reasonable force if necessary, then I have no problem with that.



Your original post was worded in a way that made it seem like if the person being robbed physically in any way tried to stop the robber, they were wrong on moral and/or legal grounds. From that standpoint, I feel you are wrong. If you are arguing that it's wrong because it isn't worth the risk to the victim to stop the robber because of what may happen to them, then I guess that is a subjective argument.
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Well maybe I haven't been clear about what the intent of my posts have been. My point is that security shouldn't be able to do anymore than confront you. By confront I mean verbally tell you to return the merchandise and maybe place a hand on your back and or shoulder and try to get you to stay in the store.

If at that point the thief tells the security guard to get bent and walks towards the door. The security guard should be able observe and report from that point and nothing more.

If you want to defend your property by assaulting someone fine do it I don't care.

I don't want security guards allowed to interpret "reasonable" physical force.

FunkyMunkey said:
Wow you are pretty fucking thick aren't you?

Security guards are able to detain people, it's part of their job. You're acting like it's impossible to detain someone without one of the people getting absolutely wrecked in the process, it's not. For your first scenario, the guard would try to hold the guy and probably call for another guard to assist until the police arrive. If he was alone, probably try to hold the guy and fail, letting him go and following until police arrived.

For the second scenario, the guard would plainly hold the kid WITHOUT grabbing his/her arm hard enough to break it, which is apparently impossible in the warped world you base your opinions in.

Is the man in the video stupid for not letting go? Maybe. That's up for interpretation. But blaming him when he's the one who got assaulted(doing his job) like he was asking for it is absolutely ridiculous.



Exactly. I'm going to put a mask on and strap a baby to my chest so that when I steal things, people aren't allowed to try and reach and grab the item back because that's too close to using a gun and murdering me.



I take offense to victim blaming and false-equivalences to try to explain people assaulting this guy for holding on to a pair of shoes, with him never hitting anyone back.

Let's not get up in arms over a woman stealing items with a baby on her chest, or her friend hitting the guy relentlessly, or people taking the side of the thieves and sucker-punching him in the face. No, let's blame him for choosing to hold on to the shoes instead of letting go. Let's also pretend there is no way to detain people without using weapons.

I apologize for the thick comment, but everything else I said I stand by.
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I'm not victim blaming and I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I don't want some two bit minimum wage security guard that couldn't make the cut at the police academy deciding what is or isn't "reasonable". Try to keep it civil
 
- Woman puts stuff in bag so she can steal it
- Guard grabs bag
- Woman punches guard
- Other people join in and beat up guard

Looks pretty clear-cut to me. Fire the guard.
 
Yeah and this is why I laugh when people suggest that store employees should physically stop shoplifters. All that guy got for his trouble was a few punches to the head by the women who did the shoplifting and another punch by some random guy as well. If it isn't his store or personal property then I say fuck it not worth the potential hassle.
 
Almighty said:
Yeah and this is why I laugh when people suggest that store employees should physically stop shoplifters. All that guy got for his trouble was a few punches to the head by the women who did the shoplifting and another punch by some random guy as well.
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And he was probably fired for it as well.
 
Everyone keeps calling him a security guard and I don't believe that's what he is. Wearing normal clothes so he's probably loss prevention. When I worked at a retail store I know that our LP were not supposed to touch people who were shop lifting, unless they were defending themselves from an attacker. It looks like the LP guy was trying to forcefully take back the stolen merchandise. I cannot say if he is actually allowed to do that or not.

One of the women tries punching him in the face, which in my opinion, now opens the gates for the LP guy to defend himself. The women and children walk away around the corner.

LP guy should not have run back out of the store and went for the woman like that. Then again, I have little sympathy for the vile people that shop lift. Then out of no where come all these dudes ready to bust his ass? Give me a fucking break. Every video I see nowadays is people just waiting for an opportunity to kick someone's ass.

So yeah, he shouldn't run out after her when they left and try to "get back" at her. It's not money out of his pocket. She shouldn't be a piece of shit, shoplifting bitch.
 
TheRedSnifit said:
- Woman puts stuff in purse so she can steal it
- Guard grabs purse
- Woman punches guard
- Guard is separated from woman
- Woman gets half a block away
- Guard (not in a uniform do we even know if he's a guard?) grabs her purse again
- Woman asks for help
- Other people join in and beat up guard

Looks pretty clear-cut to me. Fire the guard.
Click to expand...

Added some details
 
TheRedSnifit said:
- Woman puts stuff in purse so she can steal it
- Guard grabs purse
- Woman punches guard
- Other people join in and beat up guard

Looks pretty clear-cut to me. Fire the guard.
Click to expand...

-Woman shoplifts
-Woman flees store
-Guard tries to stop woman
-Woman hits guard
-Guard hits woman
-Woman breaks away
-Guard makes the mistake of going after her
-Bystanders think man is attacking woman
-Guard is assaulted

The guard should not have pursued the woman once she was away from the store. He should have simply called the police, what ever she stole was not worth the trouble.

Ingueferroque said:
What the fuck?
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What is incorrect about the statement? Is what she stole worth all of the trouble he went through? Private security has no authority over citizens.
 
J1SSL3R said:
Everyone keeps calling him a security guard and I don't believe that's what he is. Wearing normal clothes so he's probably loss prevention. When I worked at a retail store I know that our LP were not supposed to touch people who were shop lifting, unless they were defending themselves from an attacker. It looks like the LP guy was trying to forcefully take back the stolen merchandise. I cannot say if he is actually allowed to do that or not.

One of the women tries punching him in the face, which in my opinion, now opens the gates for the LP guy to defend himself. The women and children walk away around the corner.

LP guy should not have run back out of the store and went for the woman like that. Then again, I have little sympathy for the vile people that shop lift. Then out of no where come all these dudes ready to bust his ass? Give me a fucking break. Every video I see nowadays is people just waiting for an opportunity to kick someone's ass.

So yeah, he shouldn't run out after her when they left and try to "get back" at her. It's not money out of his pocket. She shouldn't be a piece of shit, shoplifting bitch.
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That is some serious nomenclature debate :) At least where I live, all loss prevention people are security guards, just with a specific job.
 
He looked like he was having a nervous breakdown at the end. Life isn't so fun when guys stop you from trying to attack a woman is it old sport?
 
Dead Man said:
That is some serious nomenclature debate :) At least where I live, all loss prevention people are security guards, just with a specific job.
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I know that laws vary from state to state and between countries. I'm only speaking from two retail jobs I held.
 
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