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[NYCmetsfan]

What other option besides war really is there with North Korea? Sanctions don't do anything, and if they did, who is to say the insane dictator wouldn't try to do as much damage as possible as a final act? Should the rest of the world wait until they have a full arsenal of nuclear ICBMs? There is no way to change this regime from the outside.
It probably should have happened years ago; the sooner the better.
Trying to negotiate with the madmen running North Korea is like trying to negotiate with Hitler.

Of course it would be awful if it has to happen while Commander Cuckoo-Bananas in charge of the USA.

Live with them as a nuclear power? Like we did when Israel, Pakistan, India, South Africa (who later gave up the bomb), China and Russia got the Bomb?

At least 2 countries have ICMBs pointed at the US right now on high alert. No reason to think the NK would launch theirs without provocation (their stockpile will always be small because of their limited access to plutonium and uranium and poor economic shape)

And the bolded is absolutely not true. Since we've negotiated deals in the past with NK which they honored for a long time.
NK's reason for nukes is regime stability and deterrence.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Of course they have to put war on the table.

When dealing with a state like NK why would you not say that war is a possibility?

Leveler heads wouldn't suggest war privately but publicly there needs to be something to discourage more bad acting.

 

[Veelk]

This is so fucking insane that I still can't believe this is reality.

There is no fictional poltiical universe that is less believable than this presidency.

 

[Occam]

Live with them as a nuclear power? Like we did when Israel, Pakistan, India, South Africa (who later gave up the bomb), China and Russia got the Bomb?

At least 2 countries have ICMBs pointed at the US right now on high alert. No reason to think the NK would launch theirs without provocation (their stockpile will always be small because of their limited access to plutonium and uranium and poor economic shape)

Neither of the countries you listed were insane dictatorships run by madmen.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

~25 million starving, uneducated North Koreans await who ever attacks the regime....Trump is dumb enough to do it.

That's not how a military intervention would go down.

~25 million starving, uneducated North Koreans fleeing the country and crashing the China and South Korean border is the end result of any military response that cripples or destroys central leadership.

 

[CloudyTuba]

honestly, i dont think so. it seems like the rest of the world is collectively getting tired of north korea's shit.

I don't think anyone would be upset if NK got fucked, it's what happens next that could possibly cause problems.

The first consequence would probably be Seoul getting fucked up as SK is our ally and that's about the only target NK could do anything to. Obviously SK wouldn't be very happy about that.

China wouldn't go to war over the act of removing Jong-un. China was previously their ally, but lately they have started harshly condemning them and putting on the pressure. They would definitely make a big fuss for very practical reasons that affect them (refugees, splash damage) and it would be a political nightmare that causes a lot of tension, though.

Russia is more of a wildcard, their interest in NK is pretty shady. They've made actual efforts in recent years to become closer with them and they share a (slim) border, but have also publicly warned them that if they keep playing with fire they're going to get burned. Considering the warnings they've given to Kim Jong-un, I think it's more likely that they'd let NK burn.

The real issue would be the aftermath. If NK got wrecked, there might suddenly be a few countries competing for control. Team America might be trying to work something out with South Korea while I think China and Russia would both try to make their claims to avoid more US presence in that area. With three super powers in the mix things can get a little uncomfortable.

 

[Lubricus]

We could pound the crap out of North Korea but it would be like Iwo Jima once the ground troops went in.
I imagine the North Koreans would have suicide missions against the ground troops.
It would not be as easy as Iraq which cost us how many troops and how many casualties over ten years?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

They haven't achieved miniaturization yet, so they have the ingredients but not a delivery method.

We don't "know this"

They have ICMBs. The assumption is that while they might not have them completely "deployed there's the possibility that they might launch whatever they have if attacked.

That's not a risk pretty much anybody who has the possibility of getting nuked wants to take

 

[Mr Swine]

So if Trump really wants to go to war with NK or bomb them. Shouldn't he do it now before the special investigation finds him guilty working with Russia over the election?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Didn't Obama stop Iran's nuclear program by installing a computer virus?

Why can't we do that to North Korea?

I'm sure Baron could get the job done.

No and no.

Obama stopped Iran's nuclear program by using backdoor diplomacy and getting a nuclear deal done.

 

[Big Blue]

I really can't blame Trump here. There is a known hostile ally, testing missiles with the intention of reach America. That's as close an act of war as it gets with out any actual conflict.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

China probably can't wait to welcome most of those as refugees.

This really is some fucked up situation.

China has been building up it's military at the border to kill or turn back refugees.


An idea floated is that China and the US both attack, a portion of NK is retaken by SK and a portion is turned into a tightly controlled buffer state by China. China's biggest worry is having a democratic, prosperous, American ally right on their border.

 

[kmax]

China really doesn't want instability around themselves as they are very busy holding the line by keeping their own autonomous regions in check. If NK goes haywire, there will be a catastrophic refugee crisis, and SK along with China would take the brunt of it.

 

[knitoe]

If you can't except NK with nukes, the only non military option is having really China squeeze them and hope they change their minds. Asking China nicely has never worked. It's time to play hardball and put nukes on the SK / Japan table. I can't see China not doing a 180 once that's a real possibility.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I really can't blame Trump here. There is a known hostile ally, testing missiles with the intention of reach America. That's as close an act of war as it gets with out any actual conflict.

Uhhh, no it isn't.

An act of war would be like shelling border villages, sinking subs and kidnapping people.

Which they do on a semi-regular basis.

Spoiler

We're still at war with North Korea,
the war never actually ended

 

[Fox318]

War with North Korea is war with China.

Only way China sells out North Korea is if the US agrees to pull out of the pacific and that will never happen.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

We don't "know this"

They have ICMBs. The assumption is that while they might not have them completely "deployed there's the possibility that they might launch whatever they have if attacked.

That's not a risk pretty much anybody who has the possibility of getting nuked wants to take

Sure, not 100% but considering their actions in testing nukes and the types they have it's fair to say they don't have bomb that can fit on an ICBM, yet. When they start testing smaller warheads we know they have the capability.

 

[Nictel]

Give the NK people access to the internet by dropping 50 million smart phones in the country. Educate the masses. Let them revolt internally instead of an armed conflict.

 

[norm9]

I really can't blame Trump here. There is a known hostile ally, testing missiles with the intention of reach America. That's as close an act of war as it gets with out any actual conflict.

We're in no danger here. The drums of war you're hearing is people in charge being bored and batting ideas around.

 

[Kusagari]

I strongly believe the refugee disaster is of bigger concern for China at this point than US aggression in the pacific.

The entire world isn't ready for the humanitarian crisis that the Kim dynasty falling will lead to.

 

[Always-honest]

It won't save him. The world wants him gone.

 

[Taker666]

Is the Senate or Congress able to stop Trump if he gives the command to attack?

Ha. That's funny.

...they'll all be encouraging him rather that trying to stop him.

Look at the reactions to Trump sending bombs to Syria without even the most barebones investigation on the ground.

Bombing en masse will be about the only thing guaranteed to get Trump almost universal praise from the media, Republicans and Democrats.

The people most likely to disapprove are the ones who voted for him.

 

[Duffman]

We could pound the crap out of North Korea but it would be like Iwo Jima once the ground troops went in.
I imagine the North Koreans would have suicide missions against the ground troops.
It would not be as easy as Iraq which cost us how many troops and how many casualties over ten years?

guerrilla warfare would be a very big problem i would imagine thanks to the brainwashing that has been going on for decades now.

 

[Big Blue]

Uhhh, no it isn't.

An act of war would be like shelling border villages, sinking subs and kidnapping people.

Which they do on a semi-regular basis.

Spoiler

We're still at war with North Korea,
the war never actually ended

"That's as close an act of war as it gets with out any actual conflict..."

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Neither of the countries you listed were insane dictatorships run by madmen.

China was run by Mao.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

Russia by Stalin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Pakistan has numerous contacts with murderous terrorists

South Africa was ruled by a murderous apartheid government who mass murdered their people and forced them to camps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Areas_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soweto_uprising

India also has had a history of mistreating minorities and brutally suppressing them

Kim Jong-Un is bad but this idea that he's, in regards to his nukes, somehow different is bizarre. Everybody gets nukes for the same reason. To make themselves untouchable to the outside world.

 

[DeathbyCheerios]

I mean....if they want to devastate South Korea than sure, go ahead and attack North Korea.

 

[Occam]

Sure, not 100% but considering their actions in testing nukes and the types they have it's fair to say they don't have bomb that can fit on an ICBM, yet. When they start testing smaller warheads we know they have the capability.

All the more reason to attack now, and not after they can hold the world hostage.

 

[knitoe]

Give the NK people access to the internet by dropping 50 million smart phones in the country. Educate the masses. Let them revolt internally instead of an armed conflict.

What good would smart phones be without service. Even they if they did, the government could still block it.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Alright but people actually live there. Like a lot of them. Where exactly you going to put them?

 

[Dude Abides]

Neither of the countries you listed were insane dictatorships run by madmen.

What is this even supposed to mean? There's no reason to think NK would launch a first strike and silly overheated rhetoric doesn't provide one.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Also, in the wise words of Dr. Strangelove

Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost if you KEEP IT A SECRET! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?

We'll know when NK can retaliate with miniaturized nuclear weapons, because that's the entire point of developing such weapons.

As others have pointed out in the other thread, you don't need a nuke, or ICBM's to fuck shit up. The idea of ICBM's with nukes are basically the end game and the deadline of having the military option on the table with North Korea.

Having nukes just means they can continue to do what they want with no risk of the west or China pushing them around (which we don't really do at any rate, considering the amount of aid we give them)

 

[gutter_trash]

War: the best distraction from the mess at home

 

[Kurdel]

I would like to visit Seoul before it is destroyed.

 

[darscot]

I wish I was surprised by the complete lack of empathy or care for life. It seems its completely ok to slaughter people as long as they are "over there". I wonder why the people over there feel the same way about the US.

 

[VivaciousSoul]

What are some scenarios in which doing nothing leads to a worse result than doing something? As difficult as it is to predict what would happen if military action were taken, I think it is equally difficult to predict all the way into the future the results of doing nothing. We genuinely need sight into the future to make a decision that we truly could be confident in.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I wish I was surprised by the complete lack of empathy or care for life. It seems its completely ok to slaughter people as long as they are "over there". I wonder why the people over there feel the same way about the US.

That's one way to defend a regime that has death camps.

 

[BrassDragon]

Was is not a 'good option'. War is a fucking last resort.

 

[SDCowboy]

Give the NK people access to the internet by dropping 50 million smart phones in the country. Educate the masses. Let them revolt internally instead of an armed conflict.

No service and no way for most to charge them. Interesting idea...

 

[Randy Monk]

It won't save him. The world wants him gone.

Jong Un, Trump or Putin?

How much for the trifecta?

 

[Occam]

What is this even supposed to mean? There's no reason to think NK would launch a first strike and silly overheated rhetoric doesn't provide one.

As I said, at some point when the regime is about to collapse who says they won't use their arsenal?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

That's one way to defend a regime that has death camps.

How is that defending NK?

 

[Dude Abides]

As I said, at some point when the regime is about to collapse who says they won't use their arsenal?

Who says they will? Killing a bunch of people and wrecking South Korea and the Chinese border needs more justification than speculation and feels.

 

[Auto_aim1]

India also has had a history of mistreating minorities and brutally suppressing them

There are obviously cases like riots and stuff but India is an actual functioning democracy and has been since independence. It was never ever run by a madman or dictator.

 

[darscot]

That's one way to defend a regime that has death camps.

Yeah an open war with Korea is only going to kill the bad people. The civilians forced into dictatorship won't get slughtered at all. Also he will not retaliate with strikes against the Japanese if attacked. I for one am completely reasured that a country run by Trump is going to handle this with surgical skill and only remove the evil regime.

Oh wait, it will be a colosual cluster fuck reaching new levels of human stupidity. Liberating the world of "Death Camps" with the effencience and freedom we saw when they freed the world from "Weapons of Mass Distraction".

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Should have dealt with them before. Too late now. Leave it.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Should have dealt with them before. Too late now. Leave it.

It'll be too late when they can deploy nukes. We've got a small window before they can.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Yeah an open war with Korea is only going to kill the bad people. The civilians forced into dictatorship won't get slughtered at all. Also he will not retaliate with strikes against the Japanese if attacked. I for one am completely reasured that a country run by Trump is going to handle this with surgical skill and only remove the evil regime.

Oh wait, it will be a colosual cluster fuck reaching new levels of human stupidity. Liberating the world of "Death Camps" with the effencience and freedom we saw when they freed the world from "Weapons of Mass Distraction".

Maybe you should word your post better considering what you wrote implied the US is going to "slaughter" all the civilians who die or something.

Of course a war in the area would be a clusterfuck, that's why nobody has really considered such options because of the insane consequences. I don't think anyone who is talking about a military strike/removing the regime thinks such actions would just blow over.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

this is a good point on why this is so stupid

if we're on a collision course for war. we should leave, given our stated reason for going to war

If we go to war to prevent the ICMB threat we can do that by leaving the region.
Otherwise we're abandoning our allies to prevent a threat we can avoid

 

[NYCmetsfan]

There are obviously cases like riots and stuff but India is an actual functioning democracy and has been since independence. It was never ever run by a madman or dictator.

Not a "madman" but there's a long of unhinged racist stuff that comes out of the government and military

As I said, at some point when the regime is about to collapse who says they won't use their arsenal?

Why would they? Jesus people read some history or some IR theory and don't think everyone is a bond villian or some tom clancy plot

Look at the USSR's Collapse or Pakistans numerous governmental failures

 

[Psychoward]

Gotta love the moderate Republicans!