Whats changes when one more country has nukes? Lots of countries have them or have the technology to create them. Putin, Trump or several other leaders could end the world at any moment.
Sen. Lindsey Graham: Trump Says War With North Korea an Option
- Thread starter Tovarisc
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Whats changes when one more country has nukes? Lots of countries have them or have the technology to create them. Putin, Trump or several other leaders could end the world at any moment.
Why would they deploy* nukes?
MisterR
Member
I don't know. I feel like you may be wrong about Graham being wrong about military experts being wrong about no good options existing.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
With this kind of language I can see Moon upping dialog with the North and China to try to get some action that will please Trump.
TBH I worry far more about Trump than Un in this conflict.
TBH I worry far more about Trump than Un in this conflict.
After heightening tensions with Stuxnet, fyi
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
India and Pakistan were days away from a nuclear war in 1999.
Functioning states go to war, and nuclear functioning states can absolutely resort to nuclear weapons with a mentality of coming out victors.
Oh I get it, so long as the US only starts the war and sets the whole slaughter in motion they are not responsible for any of the deaths that result. Other than the bad guys that deserve it of course. If North Korea actuall attacks anyone by all means defend yourselfs. This policy is very close to the police are ok to shoot blacks because they are scary and have the potential to hurt somone.
Randolph Freelander
Member
And I, sir, feel that you're wrong about me being wrong about him being wrong about the experts being wrong about whatever it was that was being discussed as I've forgotten it at this point.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
I mean, dude, that's how deterrence works
A window to do what? Obliterate Seoul and possibly Japan so you can have your war?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Which was never supposed to be known to the public because Israel fucked with the code.
So in a horribly ironic twist, Israel fucked with covert operations, caused Iran to rapidly grow it's nuclear tech, [Israel] bluffed to Obama that they were rapidly approaching the point where they would launch a strike which in turn quickly forced Obama to develop a backdoor nuclear deal, which Israel hates.
Uh no, I took your post as literally saying the west would slaughter civilians for the fun of it or something. Which isn't really out of the realm of opinions on the far left.
cpp_is_king
Member
Not doing anything could be seen as aiding in the deaths of millions of people too when NK preemptively strikes Seoul. It's not that hard to understand that all options are terrible
You're assuming that if we do nothing, NK will also do nothing. How confident are you?
MisterR
Member
Lets agree to disagree and assume all parties are wrong.
What could go wrong?
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
We let NK miniturize nukes and either they use them or they sell them.
That's the worst case scenario.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Why would NK preemptively strike Seoul? They know it would be signing their own death warrant
TheFuzz
Member
Refreshing to hear these voices of reason here.
Regardless of Trump, a trigger-happy maniac who has nukes pointed at you is not something any nation should tolerate. I don't care if it's Trump, Hillary, Obama, Bush.... I don't want to start a war at all, but the commander in chief has a duty to stop that.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
India has a no first use policy. Even China has it. Any nuclear weapon strike by India will be due to Pakistan launching its missiles first.
cpp_is_king
Member
Because they're fucking crazy? They're already signing their own death warrant, no sane leader would behave the way of KJU, who is probably the only leader in the world with a bigger ego and more delusions of grandeur than trump
maximum360
Member
Mammoth Jones
Member
Pretty sure they can figure out how to nuke an invading military force before said force can topple the regime.
Shadow Puppetry
Member
Never thought I'd see the day when men children would cause a war.
Oh, I'm sure inwardly he'd be gloating about what happened here. Outwardly it would be a great excuse to start a war if that's what he wants. Here's the question, Trump doesn't seem to be very good at keeping his inner voice quiet... does he slip up and let people know he's gloating about the west coast being hit?
Either way, being on the west coast, fuck Trump. It just pisses me off more that we would be the most likely ones punished for his idiocy (for him it's a win win *grumble*). And that I don't trust that he would bother trying to stop them from bombing us (I really think he'd be fine with letting us get bombed first rather than do anything to try to prevent it. After all, it would make a great distraction and he seems pretty petty so I bet he totally holds hte fact that this coast hates him against us. He already slowed down/didn't send help to California during some disaster where they asked for federal help so he's shown of very capable of letting people here suffer in punishment for not liking him).
I mean, it does kinda scare me cause if NK wants to send bombs this way, I'm pretty sure we're fucked cause Trump isn't even going to try to stop it (or put a really token effort into it). And even if he did want to stop it, he's not that competent anyways so even if I trusted that he wouldn't be that petty, it is not like it would do much anyways.
(I'll just hope the rest of the REpublican party isn't that insane and can some how reign him in).
More confident of that than of America administering a war competently and with zero blowback, given its track record.
They're not. Their nuke policy has been pretty rational. Kim Jong Un abuses his power at home because he can, but he doesn't have a death wish.
They want nukes so they don't get invaded, simple as that.
they have very limited plutonium reserves?
The guy is a dictator, you think maybe he starts selling Nukes to terrorist they might use one on him? The guy is evil but he is not stupid, he rattles his sword when he needs too. He doesn't arm his potential enemies. Does he seem like he needs petty cash?
In that case America and Israel must be toppled immediately, given the existential crisis they pose to the rest of us, along with Israel's refusal to disclose it's nuclear stockpile.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Might as well put our highly expensive military budget to use.
cpp_is_king
Member
I mean, he's killed 2 members of his immediate family, one quite brazenly. He's crazy as shit. Anyone who claims to know what he'd do with the nukes is deluding themselves
Uranium. They have large deposits. You enrich Uranium to create Plutonium (which North Korea has been doing for a decade). Estimates say North Korea has enough for 20 bombs now, more to follow.
"Added to an estimated 32- to 54 kilogram plutonium stockpile, the North will have sufficient fissile material for about 20 bombs by the end of 2016, Hecker said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/north-korea-nuclear-weapons_us_57d8fe8fe4b0fbd4b7bc6834
Etrian Oddity
Member
The country and regime literally have the official stance that it rains because the Un family wills it to rain.
Do not pretend logic and reason exist anywhere in North Korea. It is foolish to assume they have any sense.
That's called propaganda to keep the cult of personality going. Kim and the inner circle don't actually believe that shit.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I'm inclined to agree. Hawks always promise a quick and easy and contained conflict with minimal civilian casualties.
Truth is we live in a digital age where information can circle the globe in moments. Can't go to war old school style. Can't provide the clean and surgical war they always claim they will.
The least shitty move is to accept the reality of a Nuclear North Korea and push towards attempting to normalize relations as shitty as that'll be. And I mean, if the world wants to go to war with North Korea: Ok. I'll support that. But understand it's gonna kill A LOT of people in the short term. Someone can make the argument that it's best to deal with them now rather than later. But once again. It's gonna be a bloodbath. Modern society doesn't have the stomach for that.
If there's to be a war let NK start it.
Lonewulfeus
Member
Yup almost every member of congress and the entire media aparatus lined up to suck trumps cock after Syria was bombed. That was incredibly disheartening to see.
Dude Abides
Banned
You say as you claim to know he'd use the nukes.
He killed his family members because he perceived them as a threat to his position.
Throwing around words like crazy and insane is not a substitute for an actual argument. It's telling how similar the pro-war rhetoric is to the stuff people were saying before the grand Iraq adventure.
n0razi
Member
Who the fuck is going to buy 'Made in NK' nukes? With their track record it will probably blow up in their own country while being transported
Bill Clinton said he was willing to go to war with NK to stop them from getting nukes, if necessary. As much as I hate Trump, and think war in NK is probably not a very good idea, it's pretty standard American policy.
Etrian Oddity
Member
And how the hell do you infer his getting away with these threats to his position will all of a sudden make him stop his hitherto neverending game of ham-fisted brinksmanship?
The hoops people jump through for NK is nuts.
darkstar0155
Member
This right here. Everyone thinks NK is "insane" and "crazy" but they have retained power for decades now when many other regimes have collapsed. The entire world is gunning for them pretty much, including the worlds biggest super power, which constantly calls for their destruction (much like they call for the U.S.'s).
NK see its nuclear arsenal and cannons pointing at Seoul as a deterrent, and it really is. Its the reason the US haven't went in there yet.
The world will mostly likely have to live with a nuclear NK, just like we lived with a nuclear China, Russia, Iran, etc etc.
For those of you who have never read Fareed Zakaria's work, he has a short but good article on it
https://fareedzakaria.com/2017/07/06/we-think-north-korea-is-crazy-what-if-were-wrong/
LegendofJoe
Member
If a war is started and North Korea launches a nuclear missile I honestly might lose my mind. Trump and the NK leadership must be tried by the ICC for war crimes and executed if it happens.
You realise that this is exactly the impression that North Korea seeks to maintain to the outside world, so that it's strategy of deterrence works? The world must believe that NK will use even the nuclear capability it has now, which places Seoul in the firing line, so that NK can avoid a "regime change" action in the vein of Libya or Iraq. NK's actions are utterly rational when viewed from the regime's perspective.
For me there is no moral justification to agitate for warfare with a nuclear power that could easily destroy Seoul along with parts of China or Japan in retaliation. Hawks are pushing for war because:
a) Their party is in government and the president is a demented old moron who repeats the statements of the latest person he has talked to
b) They are bought and paid for by companies who would profit from such a war
c) NK is approaching the point of having weapons in range of America, which is of course an existential crisis despite China, Japan and SK all living under threat of NK for decades
You're absolutely right that normalising relations with NK is the only feasible outcome - as unpalatable as it is, it will mostly come from literally bribing the regime with aid via China or SK towards any kind of reform that helps the people of NK.
They have opposed him and the only reason a dictatorship can exist is fear. He killed his own family members without hesitation and sent a signal with it that no one is safe, even his own family or generals. The moment when the population is no longer afraid of the regime is the beginning of its end.
Coriolanus
Banned
I like how so many in this thread keep seeing a country that has been absolutely stable and perfectly predictable for longer than they've been alive as somehow mercurial and insane.
No arguing that its an awful place, tho.
No arguing that its an awful place, tho.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Serious question:
Does NK have some anti missile system or something comparable?
I mean I know they could fuck up Seoul and Incheon even with artillery, but would they be able to react fast enough when Kim's house and the command center got hit early on?
Does NK have some anti missile system or something comparable?
I mean I know they could fuck up Seoul and Incheon even with artillery, but would they be able to react fast enough when Kim's house and the command center got hit early on?