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[Data West]

Can I be a Troll mage?

 

[adj_noun]

Can I be a Troll mage?

Yup. As far as I know there's no restrictions on race/class combos.

 

[ScrubJay]

Never played P&P shadowrun, but I love the setting. The SNES game was one of my favorites of that era. Guns, elfs, and the Matrix, all in one universe. Can't wait for this.

 

[Vlodril]

Assuming bad faith here is incredibly unreasonable.

Is it bad faith to be constrained by legal dealings with the giant corporation that actually owns the property? That's the point you're making. Microsoft required DRM and thus the game has DRM otherwise the game wouldn't be made at all. That Harebrained was able to negotiate an exemption for Kickstarter backers is to their CREDIT and not a mark against them at all.

And it's really unwarranted to shit on them for the Berlin situation as well. Game development is hard. Take a look at the Skullgirls thread on GAF in which actual developers detailed exactly why something that looks simple from the outside is actually incredibly difficult and takes a lot of time and effort (i.e money) to accomplish. This isn't bad faith either. In fact I'd much rather that Harebrained do the sane thing by keeping a clear eyed view of how the project is going and take the appropriate steps to ensure that they can keep operating and get the game done in time to generate cash flow before they run out of money. They're not monks working for free.

Honestly there was no guarantee at all that we would get ANYTHING out of our Kickstarter pledges. Big games from publishers crash and burn all the time as do games from self funded indies and many many more have features dropped and scope reduced before release. What makes anyone think that crowd-funded games would be any different? We have to be realistic here.

That they've finished the game and are releasing it is itself a major major accomplishment. That they're fulfilling all their reward promises to boot should be praised and not derided at all.

They did act in bad faith. If they didn't have the rights for a drm free version they shouldnt have promised it.

And game development is hard guys is not really an excuse for mishandling the whole berlin issue. What really disappoints me its that they are clearly a very inexperienced mobile game team (despite having been making games for so long). Just own up to your mistakes.

Why is everyone lately must try to make others feel bad or shift the blame to them instead of saying oh shit guys my bad. How hard can that be?

 

[BlackLagoon]

Hmm, didn't find a Steam key email, but I did find some account details for their site and logging into it I see the key is there. However, if I ultimately want the Linux version, do I then not use this? Or will that entitle me to the Linux Steam version too, cross-buy style? Can I give the Windows Steam version a spin now, and then get the DRM free Linux version later? Pretty confused about this.

Also, have they published any system requirements? Because my main PC is pretty old and has an awful Intel GMA graphics chipset.

 

[Azih]

They did act in bad faith. If they didn't have the rights for a drm free version they shouldnt have promised it.

According to them they didn't know until after the Kickstarter ended. How is that bad faith?

And game development is hard guys is not really an excuse for mishandling the whole berlin issue.

It kind of is. We have to have realistic expectations when funding something as risky and complicated as game development. Like I said, games implode and disappear all the time because they run into problems no matter what their funding model is. Hell an established and experienced developer like DoubleFine wasn't able to fulfill their promises without getting more funding from outside their initial Kickstarter pledges.

We can't ignore that. It should in fact be at the forefront of our minds when Kickstarting something. And it very much should be considered when a developer is in the process of actually fulfilling the letter of their reward promises to their backers as Harebrained is very much doing.

 

[adj_noun]

Also, have they published any system requirements? Because my main PC is pretty old and has an awful Intel GMA graphics chipset.

This is what I found (for the record they also said it would work with Windows 8)

OS:Windows XP SP3/Vista/Windows 7
Processor: x86-compatible 1.4GHz or faster processor
Memory:2 GB RAM
GraphicsirectX compatible 3D graphics card with at least 256MB of addressable memory
DirectX®:9.0
Hard Drive:2 GB HD space

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Also, have they published any system requirements? Because my main PC is pretty old and has an awful Intel GMA graphics chipset.

It's designed to run on tablets, so unless your PC is 10 years old, you should be fine.

 

[inm8num2]

They did act in bad faith. If they didn't have the rights for a drm free version they shouldnt have promised it.

That seems to be the crux of the issue. HBS had a case of false advertising seemingly to avoid further questions about DRM-free versions. I don't question their intent, and I understand the reasons they have for the multiplayer being integrated with Steam due to server requirements and whatnot.

Still, bad form.

 

[adj_noun]

For ease of reference re: the DRM thing, here's a link to (what I believe is) the only thing HBS has directly said about the matter.

We said that post-Berlin Campaign DLC would only be available on Steam but we never said why. We regret the omission.

The reason is that our license to develop Shadowrun Returns actually requires that the game and its DLC be distributed under DRM.

This didn’t come up earlier because the situation was complicated by the number of parties involved in the license and because the process was “ongoing”.

Ultimately, we were able to successfully negotiate an exception with Microsoft for us to provide our Backers with a DRM-free version of the Kickstarter rewards (specifically the game and the Berlin Campaign) but that exception does not extend to non-reward DLC.

So unfortunately, we cannot sell or give away DRM-free versions of the game or DLC on stores like GoG, and that’s why any future Shadowrun Returns DLC will only be available for purchase on Steam.

 

[d1rtn4p]

Man, enough of all this water under the bridge talk...Anyone actually played this yet? As good as the SNES/Genesis classics? I backed at $125, so anxious to see the results!

 

[Sinatar]

Man, enough of all this water under the bridge talk...Anyone actually played this yet? As good as the SNES/Genesis classics? I backed at $125, so anxious to see the results!

It's embargoed until the 25th so you won't hear anything til it comes out.

 

[d1rtn4p]

It's embargoed until the 25th so you won't hear anything til it comes out.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

It's embargoed until the 25th so you won't hear anything til it comes out.

Release date embargoes usually mean one thing. >.<

 

[MrCompletely]

Release date embargoes usually mean one thing. >.<

Not for small independent publisher/developer - they have to get behind their game, the embargo is likely just to manage PR to hit when the game is actually available.

 

[Data West]

Release date embargoes usually mean one thing. >.<

Ubisoft has them all the time.

 

[terrdactycalsrock]

Game looks amazing. But hows the loot in the game?

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Not for small independent publisher/developer - they have to get behind their game, the embargo is likely just to manage PR to hit when the game is actually available.

This is true.

Game looks amazing. But hows the loot in the game?

It's not a loot game, if that's what you're asking. You can get items when enemies die, but that's not the focus.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm calling dibs on the Shadowrun Sega CD mod.

 

[Onemic]

For ease of reference re: the DRM thing, here's a link to (what I believe is) the only thing HBS has directly said about the matter.

And this is why they acted in bad faith or at the very least were incompetant. If the talks were merely ongoing, they knew that potentially the DRM claim the posted on kickstarter may not actually come to fruition and they put that tagline knowing that if worse comes to worse maybe there would be no DRM free version period.(For backers or non-backers) I really don't no why some people are trying to be HBS' personal apologists. They messed up. End of story.

As for the DLC thing....Well they pretty much straight up lied about that.

I'm still hyped for the game, but they sorta messed up big during its funding/development.

 

[spindoctor]

Their biggest mistake re: Berlin was calling it DLC. Instead of saying it's a $20 game with $10 Berlin DLC they should have just said the full game costs $30. It would effectively change nothing and the people complaining would have no reason to anymore.

 

[adj_noun]

Thought this was interesting. From a post from Opifer of the Shadowrun forum:

In this podcast: http://www.rpgfan.com/podcast/rpgfan_podcast_067.mp3

Jordan reveals that while Seattle is a tad closer to the SNES game with a somewhat more linear plot, the Berlin campaign is more like the Sega Genesis game in that it is freeform with a more open world and tons of side quests/runs for different Johnsons.

edit: Also for when the 25th rolls around:

Harebrained Schemes LLC about 3 hours ago

Release planned for: 10am PST

 

[trab pu kcip]

Their biggest mistake re: Berlin was calling it DLC. Instead of saying it's a $20 game with $10 Berlin DLC they should have just said the full game costs $30. It would effectively change nothing and the people complaining would have no reason to anymore.

I don't see how this would have been different if you still have the option the purchase the full game or the game minus berlin campaign. same shit.
it's not the just the word that pisses people off ya know

 

[Phanatic8390]

So because some modders are already working on recreating the SNES and Genesis campaigns does that mean the editor has been released early to a few groups?

I'm trying to gauge how long it might be till we see some good user content.

 

[Remachinate]

I don't see how this would have been different if you still have the option the purchase the full game or the game minus berlin campaign. same shit.
it's not the just the word that pisses people off ya know

Please, enlighten us--how is the option to purchase the two campaigns separately less consumer-friendly, if the total cost would be the same?

 

[Carcetti]

So with these two campaigns yada yada... if I just buy the vanilla game from Steam come tomorrow, how much is there to play?

 

[Azih]

And this is why they acted in bad faith or at the very least were incompetant.

Expecting a small developer to be ace legal beagles during ongoing negotiations with Microsoft's legal department is unrealistic to put it mildly.

 

[Azih]

So with these two campaigns yada yada... if I just buy the vanilla game from Steam come tomorrow, how much is there to play?

I'd think you'd have to wait for reviews or some entries on howlongtobeat to see how long the Seattle campaign is.

 

[Remachinate]

So with these two campaigns yada yada... if I just buy the vanilla game from Steam come tomorrow, how much is there to play?

Per the developer:

Probably 12 or more hours. depending on how careful you are.

This reflects only the Seattle campaign, and doesn't reflect the Berlin campaign to come later (as well as all the UGC).

So because some modders are already working on recreating the SNES and Genesis campaigns does that mean the editor has been released early to a few groups?

I'm trying to gauge how long it might be till we see some good user content.

Some early access backers have been hard at work creating sizable campaigns. You can find an LP of one here. I wouldn't judge the quality of the official campaign by this one, since the fan creators are just stumbling in the dark until they have something official to compare to.

 

[trab pu kcip]

Please, enlighten us--how is the option to purchase the two campaigns separately less consumer-friendly, if the total cost would be the same?

cause it would be exactly the same as before just without actually calling it dlc? I mean why else would there be an option to buy a "stripped down" version of the game?
if I understood you correctly...

 

[gregor7777]

Sort of OT, but since it's in the OP:

Shadowrun 2007 has nothing to aplogize for. It was a great game, hindered only by lack of support from MS.

I'm a huge Shadowrun fan, going all the way back to the tabletop game, and I loved the FPS. It had some really great ideas, and the maps were small in number but very high quality.

It's a shame all the RPG-fans came down on it so hard. It didn't deserve the hate; quite the opposite actually.

Anyhow, I'm in for the new game, although I must admit to some trepidation.

 

[taoofjord]

A backer here and I'm majorly disappointed in the quality of the writing that we're able to get from various screens. It's just atrocious. The quality of the puerile writing aside, however, is the tone they're attempting to achieve in line with the Shadowrun universe?

 

[piratepwnsninja]

A backer here and I'm majorly disappointed in the quality of the writing that we're able to get from various screens. It's just atrocious. The quality of the puerile writing aside, however, is the tone they're attempting to achieve in line with the Shadowrun universe?

That's kind of how the Shadowrun universe exists, in both tone and cheese factor. It's less Blade Runner cyberpunk and more, well...Kind of like if you kit bashed Warcraft, Blade Runner, and Star Wars together. It can be played gritty in the PnP environment, sure, but you have Orcs and Dragons in a futuristic sci-fi earth, so I've always gone with over the top characters and bombastic dialog when running it.

 

[Nameless One]

A backer here and I'm majorly disappointed in the quality of the writing that we're able to get from various screens. It's just atrocious. The quality of the puerile writing aside, however, is the tone they're attempting to achieve in line with the Shadowrun universe?

Can you give me an example? I hate bad writing more than anything.

 

[Carcetti]

Ow, 12 hours sounds a bit short for a game like this. I loved the pnp game and the graphics plus the combat are really enticing me but I was hoping for a really big game.

 

[trab pu kcip]

Can you give me an example?

I second that.
can't imagine that they fucked that up

 

[Nameless One]

Ow, 12 hours sounds a bit short for a game like this. I loved the pnp game and the graphics plus the combat are really enticing me but I was hoping for a really big game.

12 hours is a very disappointing length. Good thing there's user generated content or this whole thing would be a huge shame.

 

[AuthenticM]

I hope this game sells well. I want them to be able to make a sequel without going back to Kickstarter.

 

[Azih]

I hope this game sells well. I want them to be able to make a sequel without going back to Kickstarter.

I don't know. Nobody seems to be doing that. Devs are just kickstarting again and again now. DoubleFine has two, InXile has two. Maybe that'll change after some of these games actually come out but I somehow doubt it.

Kickstarter isn't just funding up front that devs don't have to pay back (with the creative freedom that comes with it), it also ties consumers and customers to them tightly before they even have anything to sell and a well run kickstarter generates massive hype at the BRAINSTORMING part of a project before a design doc even exists. Why wouldn't popular/charismatic devs take advantage of that over and over and over and over?

Edit: Why would you ever use your own money and have less hype and only have one time at which you can sell to customers at a high price(on release)?

 

[Fragamemnon]

12 hours is a very disappointing length. Good thing there's user generated content or this whole thing would be a huge shame.

I think the overall value proposition is there with the user generated content. If you're just looking to strip mine the shipped campaign and never touch the game again, then just buy it later on a Steam sale (though I will say even then that 10-12 hours of play for $18-$20 is some fine gaming value).

 

[Drek]

Ow, 12 hours sounds a bit short for a game like this. I loved the pnp game and the graphics plus the combat are really enticing me but I was hoping for a really big game.

I'd rather a 12 hour game with tight game play fundamentals and a capable editor than a 25 hour game with lesser game play and no creation kit.

Just getting a good base for Shadowrun themed RPG goodness is the real prize here. The community will likely provide as much/more content than Weisman and his team will long term. If the gameplay is good and the editor is full featured we could see community driven content from this for years to come.

 

[Remachinate]

cause it would be exactly the same as before just without actually calling it dlc? I mean why else would there be an option to buy a "stripped down" version of the game?
if I understood you correctly...

It's not stripped down, it's all that's completed as of now. Would you prefer that we wait until both campaigns were completed to play either?

 

[Gbraga]

Is the editor just for maps or you can create entire campaigns?

EDIT: Also interested in some bad writing examples, that got me worried.

 

[adj_noun]

Is the editor just for maps or you can create entire campaigns?

EDIT: Also interested in some bad writing examples, that got me worried.

I believe you can create entire campaigns.

 

[vocab]

The day of dog is upon us.

dog

dog

dog

ice at the docks

dog

 

[ColonelSkills]

Expecting a small developer to be ace legal beagles during ongoing negotiations with Microsoft's legal department is unrealistic to put it mildly.

While this is accurate, Jordan Weisman himself has dealt with rights kerfuffles in the past. Some pretty shitted up ones at that, so it's not like he doesn't have the experience to know what he should or shouldn't promise.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

A backer here and I'm majorly disappointed in the quality of the writing that we're able to get from various screens. It's just atrocious. The quality of the puerile writing aside, however, is the tone they're attempting to achieve in line with the Shadowrun universe?

Clearly, you've never read a Shadowrun novel or played any of the past games. The tone and language are consistent with the universe.

That's kind of how the Shadowrun universe exists, in both tone and cheese factor. It's less Blade Runner cyberpunk and more, well...Kind of like if you kit bashed Warcraft, Blade Runner, and Star Wars together. It can be played gritty in the PnP environment, sure, but you have Orcs and Dragons in a futuristic sci-fi earth, so I've always gone with over the top characters and bombastic dialog when running it.

This man knows the deal.

Ow, 12 hours sounds a bit short for a game like this. I loved the pnp game and the graphics plus the combat are really enticing me but I was hoping for a really big game.

I expected 6 hours here, so 12 is a surprise. Also, there are two fan-made stories that are already far along, and they're both estimated at 20 hours. User content will keep the game going for a long, long time.

12 hours is a very disappointing length. Good thing there's user generated content or this whole thing would be a huge shame.

Hyperbole is awesome. X-Com was maybe a 12-to-15-hour game for me, and that excellent game was $50 at launch.

 

[trab pu kcip]

It's not stripped down, it's all that's completed as of now. Would you prefer that we wait until both campaigns were completed to play either?

I would prefer if everything came together in one package for everyone, yes.
but I am beyond the point of complaining about it really, at this point we just have to accept how they handled it.

 

[Drek]

I would prefer if everything came together in one package for everyone, yes.
but I am beyond the point of complaining about it really, at this point we just have to accept how they handled it.

I think most would disagree with you pretty strongly then. Not only does it get the first sizable taste of game play in our hands sooner, it also gets the editor to the community that much faster. I can live with Berlin coming out as "DLC" if it means the first part of the game and community created content are out significantly sooner.

 

[Ohnonono]

This and Android:Netrunner (a card game) for me tomorrow. A cyberpunk Thursday!