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[bender]

I don't agree and a lot of my favorite release are mid-tier. The new Shiren the Wanderer will probably be my game of the year and Unicorn Overlord is also great.

 

[yurinka]

Seems that Shawn Layden doesn't know that companies like the Embracer Group, Nintendo or Paradox exist. There's a gazillion AA games being developed and released.

There are many games that people assume are AAA games or small indie games but in terms of budget they fit better in the AA category.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Unique AA games were my bread and butter in a world of unimpressive indies and cookie-cutter AAA garbage. The lack of them has certainly led to me losing interest in gaming as a whole. That's fine because I have other hobbies and interests to throw my money at.

 

[March Climber]

Seems that Shawn Layden doesn't know that companies like the Embracer Group, Nintendo or Paradox exist. There's a gazillion AA games being developed and released.

There are many games that people assume are AAA games or small indie games but in terms of budget they fit better in the AA category.

I think he is half right, because sometimes when a successful AA company begins to thrive, they tend to be noticed and then absorbed by a larger entity.

 

[mayham2199]

I couldn't disagree more. My guess is because he isn't seeing these games get massive marketing pushes (which they shouldn't) he thinks it's gone.

 

[Astray]

This year we had space marine 2, sh2, helldivers 2, metaphor rephantasio, stellar blade and wukong that are all AA when it comes to budget and studio size, the fact that some of them can look\play better than some AAA doesn't make them AAA, even if sony helped with something.

Dude should laydown the crack pipe.

Literally all of those are AAA.

Wukong alone cost over $70m to make. Stellar Blade and Re:Fantazio have 1200-1400 people working on each. Space Marine 2 had ~2000 people.

 

[Jinxed]

This year is packed with AA releases.

This. It was a strong return in force this year for AA titles.

 

[Astray]

Seems that Shawn Layden doesn't know that companies like the Embracer Group, Nintendo or Paradox exist. There's a gazillion AA games being developed and released.

There are many games that people assume are AAA games or small indie games but in terms of budget they fit better in the AA category.

And how is Embracer Group or Paradox doing? Not too good and that's his point.

Nintendo is also complaining about rising costs.

 

[GymWolf]

Literally all of those are AAA.

Wukong alone cost over $70m to make. Stellar Blade and Re:Fantazio have 1200-1400 people working on each. Space Marine 2 had ~2000 people.

Those sound like numbers from rockstar or ubisoft tbh, very hard to believe, unless they count even the people who clean the offices

And from a brief reasearch, wukong only costed around 40 mil and with a relatively small team.

Black Myth: Wukong reportedly cost around $43 million to make – and this $60 action RPG has now sold over 20 million copies across PC and PS5

It far outsold its costs in just a month

www.gamesradar.com

edit: this is a reddit post from a stellar blade dev andhe says that they were less than 100 people 5 months ago, and the game budget seems around 30-50 mil (brief research so i can be wrong)

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think he is half right, because sometimes when a successful AA company begins to thrive, they tend to be noticed and then absorbed by a larger entity.

The reason why they're absorbed into a larger entity is because AA developers know how precarious their situation is. If they were confident in big gains for their future they wouldn't sell. AA just doesn't sell.

 

[March Climber]

The reason why they're absorbed into a larger entity is because AA developers know how precarious their situation is. If they were confident in big gains for their future they wouldn't sell. AA just doesn't sell.

I don't blame any AA company for wanting to be absorbed into a larger one due to the precariousness you mentioned. The only thing I find aggravating is when the larger entity absorbs an AA company and then treats them like an AAA company with a near zero understanding of how that AA company's pipeline works. Whether that be giving them a project that is simply too huge, or moving up their release to a date that's way too soon.

It is essentially rescuing them and then immediately throwing them to the wolves.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

it's your fault Shawn

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't blame any AA company for wanting to be absorbed into a larger one due to the precariousness you mentioned. The only thing I find aggravating is when the larger entity absorbs an AA company and then treats them like an AAA company with a near zero understanding of how that AA company's pipeline works. Whether that be giving them a project that is simply too huge, or moving up their release to a date that's way too soon.

You can think of any number of reasons for why certain games fail.

The fact of the matter is that this industry used to be filled with smaller studios making games in 2 - 3 years. That was the dominant model at one point.

It's no longer the dominant model because gamers don't prefer those types of games on the whole.

The entire market has shifted under the feet of many.

 

[March Climber]

You can think of any number of reasons for why certain games fail.

The fact of the matter is that this industry used to be filled with smaller studios making games in 2 - 3 years. That was the dominant model at one point.

It's no longer the dominant model because gamers don't prefer those types of games on the whole.

The entire market has shifted under the feet of many.

Yea I could, but that's not what I'm talking about here, in this thread.

 

[Magic Carpet]

AA has moved to VR where new games seem to release for only 40 bucks.

 

[midnightAI]

Literally all of those are AAA.

Wukong alone cost over $70m to make. Stellar Blade and Re:Fantazio have 1200-1400 people working on each. Space Marine 2 had ~2000 people.

Can I ask where you got those figures from? (Especially Stellar Blade)

 

[tmlDan]

Does he ever shut up? has he done anything since PS that has any relevance to gaming or does he just do interviews/rants and podcasts

AA games exist, but nobody buys them cause most are mid.

 

[Woopah]

I really encourage people here to actually read the article and not just the headline.

Bullshit.

There's a fallacious rationale that applies to many bad trends that their preachers try to sell them as "inevitable" "it's the future" while they distance themselves from them.

Corporate drones are the culprits for the AAAA madness, not "the market" or anyone else.

We have plenty of successful games below 30M budget. The problem, as usual, is that you need talented devs instead of copypasta makers to make those fly.

How is that different to what Shawn is saying?

 

[ungalo]

He did the opposite of what he's preaching right now when he was at Sony but whatever.

 

[Woopah]

Does he ever shut up? has he done anything since PS that has any relevance to gaming or does he just do interviews/rants and podcasts

AA games exist, but nobody buys them cause most are mid.

He works at Tencent games and these quotes are from an on-stage interview at Gamescom Asia. I'd really recommend reading the full article.

 

[Guilty_AI]

"AA is gone"

Literally some of the most popular releases on steam from this year:

 

[nial]

Literally all of those are AAA.

Wukong alone cost over $70m to make. Stellar Blade and Re:Fantazio have 1200-1400 people working on each. Space Marine 2 had ~2000 people.

This is not a very good way to look at things. You're not going to have any game by a big publisher without hundreds of people at the credits. It's mostly localization, QA, publishing, etc. staff. This stuff barely makes up to the game budget (if it even does at all).
The development team of Stellar Blade had 100 or so people from Shift Up Second Eve Studio, with 5 guys from SIE XDEV doing production work.

 

[StueyDuck]

the man is behind...

AA games left and came back already.

 

[nial]

He did the opposite of what he's preaching right now when he was at Sony but whatever.

Eh, not true. Though, I still have no idea what he even did as 'chairman' of WWS.

 

[Trilobit]

I'm having a really hard time trying to grasp what games were AA or AAA during the PS2 era. For example now I'd say that Sly Cooper 2, Burnout 3, SSX3 and Ape Escape were all AA games, but I might be wrong. What were the AAA games in that time? Halo 1?

 

[yurinka]

And how is Embracer Group or Paradox doing? Not too good and that's his point.

Nintendo is also complaining about rising costs.

Everybody complains about the costs, because the costs rise every generation, as games get bigger and more detailed.

Regarding Embracer or Paradox, they are performing as the are: mid tier, AA.

 

[Astray]

Those sound like numbers from rockstar or ubisoft tbh, very hard to believe, unless they count even the people who clean the offices

Contractors are the hidden force here. People look at studio headcounts, but contractors can easily inflate the overall team headcount.

Can I ask where you got those figures from? (Especially Stellar Blade)

Moby Games.

This is not a very good way to look at things. You're not going to have any game by a big publisher without hundreds of people at the credits. It's mostly localization, QA, publishing, etc. staff. This stuff barely makes up to the game budget (if it even does at all).
The development team of Stellar Blade had 100 or so people from Shift Up Second Eve Studio, with 5 guys from SIE XDEV doing production work.

Moby Games has 1200 credited people for Stellar Blade. Which kinda tracks, the game is incredibly polished and I don't think it's just 5 people from XDEV to thank for that.

The real miracle is probably Palworld, game has less than 200 devs and already breached more than 10m copies sold without launching day 1 on PlayStation.

Everybody complains about the costs, because the costs rise every generation, as games get bigger and more detailed.

Regarding Embracer or Paradox, they are performing as the are: mid tier, AA.

Embracer have had a lot of financial issues and let one of the biggest hits of the year slip through their fingers in order to survive (Space Marine 2).

Paradox has been facing flop after flop, to the point where its higher-ups are on an apology tour.

Generally, AA games are being very squeezed by AAAs from above and indies punching up from below.

 

[Danjin44]

????

What would you call these?

 

[Ridicululzz]

What exactly is the cutoff for AAA vs AA? Is there some sort of table I can reference somewhere

 

[Katatonic]

I feel like he's a bit lagging as AA games have been releasing pretty often.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I really encourage people here to actually read the article and not just the headline.


How is that different to what Shawn is saying?

Apart from the headline, we have a match on the facts but not on the conclusions. Execs complaining about the high risk of AAA games nowadays don't blame their peers. They rather mention some mysterious forces that push companies to pursue these suicidal investments.

I don't agree with that. There's a vicious circle in which executives without a gaming culture want to make video games a junk food product, and for that purpose, they hire developers who align with that vision.

 

[Jinxed]

What exactly is the cutoff for AAA vs AA? Is there some sort of table I can reference somewhere

He can't see ray tracing unless he has a 8k tv and playing in a dark room. Doubt he can see what's the difference between a AA and AAA game.

 

[bender]

????

What would you call these?

I'd call them inferior to this:

 

[nial]

Moby Games has 1200 credited people for Stellar Blade.

I know, that's where I got this info.

The development team of Stellar Blade had 100 or so people from Shift Up Second Eve Studio, with 5 guys from SIE XDEV doing production work.

Which kinda tracks, the game is incredibly polished and I don't think it's just 5 people from XDEV to thank for that.

The XDEV producers don't really account for technical polishing, they're just there to manage the project and provide the funding directly to it. If you've read a bit about the creation of film or anime, maybe you will notice that they essentially act as the representatives of Sony Interactive Entertainment Inc. in the production of Stellar Blade.
Most of the SIE people is the same kind of staff that you will find in every of their other games -because it's important to remember, SIE is a big publisher with tons of global operations, so you will even find the frickin' Japanese localization staff over there!-, so as I said, it's not a good measurement on the overall budget of the title.
LEGO Horizon Adventures will also have hundreds of SIE staff in the credits, and that game's budget is looking to be as low as it can be (not a bad thing in itself).

 

[Hari Seldon]

This is definitely just a console thing. All I play are these smaller tier games.

My top games this year:
Enshrouded
Sins of a Solar Empire 2
Age of Mythology Retold
Songs of Conquest
WARNO
Hades 2

I think the only AAA game I played this year was CFB25.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Literally all of those are AAA.

Wukong alone cost over $70m to make. Stellar Blade and Re:Fantazio have 1200-1400 people working on each. Space Marine 2 had ~2000 people.

$70m is a AA budget

 

[SHA]

Individual devs have the potential to threaten multi million dollars publishers, they're the positive side that I could think of at this moment with all the bad stuff that's happening, it's really nice to see these individuals doing the unthinkable.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

????

What would you call these?

Do people not talk to other human beings? He obviously didn't mean literally. How do people have this much trouble with communication?

 

[Danjin44]

Do people not talk to other human beings? He obviously didn't mean literally. How do people have this much trouble with communication?

90% of games I bought this gen were AA games, there is no shortage of them.....people just ignore them and pretend they are less of them.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

The trouble is, people ignore the piss out of AA games like Psychonauts 2 or the Alone in The Dark reboot which bombed so bad it's devs almost immediately folded.

Above a certain budget, if it doesn't have hype, it ain't gonna make shit.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's not that AA games aren't being made, it's that games companies don't promote them because the potential profits are seen as too small.

Greed is the problem. Greed is always the problem.

 

[yurinka]

Embracer have had a lot of financial issues and let one of the biggest hits of the year slip through their fingers in order to survive (Space Marine 2).

Paradox has been facing flop after flop, to the point where its higher-ups are on an apology tour.

Generally, AA games are being very squeezed by AAAs from above and indies punching up from below.

Nah, Embracer got a deal that was going to give them a ton of money. They gave it for granted but lost the deal and didn't get that money so got fucked and had to make a lot of cuts losing a lot of money.

Other than that they are fine.

Paradox had some flop from time to time but posted record revenue this year, they are fine, too:

 

[Hypereides]

They're out there, but barely anyone is talking about them, in the media anyway. That's the real issue. You got these supposed gaming media outlet full of "gaming enthusiasts" who'd rather blabber about the latest AAA or political opinio-topic of the week rather than actually nerd out and dive into all sorts of games. AA games are one of those key issues these "gaming enthusiasts" gloss over way too often or write off and dump for weird reasons.

Honestly get the impression most of these CEOs don't really play games, engage in the community or are ill-informed about what's out there.

 

[eerik9000]

hes probably regretting saying that considering the current state of the industry and dev times

He was the chairman of PlayStation's Worldwide Studios, he was responsible for overseeing the first-party production. He must have had a good understanding where the budgets and timelines were going. He, at least in small part, helped to steer the industry in this direction. He even said that having longer development cycles was their decision:

with our decision to do fewer games -- bigger games -- over longer periods of time

Sony's Shawn Layden wants fewer, bigger PlayStation games

Video game makers are struggling to adapt to the internet era. With the PS5 on the horizon, Sony's video game boss has a plan.

www.cnet.com

 

[Woopah]

Apart from the headline, we have a match on the facts but not on the conclusions. Execs complaining about the high risk of AAA games nowadays don't blame their peers. They rather mention some mysterious forces that push companies to pursue these suicidal investments.

I don't agree with that. There's a vicious circle in which executives without a gaming culture want to make video games a junk food product, and for that purpose, they hire developers who align with that vision.

I think he is at least partially blaming peers in these quotes, for focusing too much on games as a product rather than something fun:

"And you're [looking] at sequels, you're looking at copycats, because the finance guys who draw the line say, 'Well, if Fortnite made this much money in this amount of time, my Fortnite knockoff can make this in that amount of time.' We're seeing a collapse of creativity in games today [with] studio consolidation and the high cost of production."

"If you're going to pitch me your AA game, and in the first two pages of your deck is your monetisation and revenue, subscription scheme, I'm out. Your first page has to be 'This game needs to be made and here's why'."

 

[sono]

Player spending and playing habits have changed so much

How have they changed so much. Do they choose to play bad games over good ones

 

[dmaul1114]

For me there’s just less space in my gaming time for AA (or indie stuff) these days as there’s so many AAA games I want to play that I can’t keep up. And end of the day I prefer the top level graphics, voice acting, production values etc. and my gaming tastes are pretty well met by AAA games. I do play some smaller/lower budget games here and there, but more when I want a shorter, palette cleanser between big/long higher budget games.