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[Lynx_7]

I like the divine powers too, their battle theme is freaking great and they add a sense of urgency that other SMTs lack. These guys really meant business.

I came back to my SMT IV cycle 2 playthrough after Apocalypse's Mikado section made me feel nostalgic for the first game. I miss the QOL improvements of the sequel, but damn if the atmosphere isn't leagues better. The story is slower paced, but I think it works considering the game is much more concerned with world building and setting up the pieces before the greater conflict truly starts. I remember being a bit disappointed at the time but in retrospect I feel like I was being unfair with the game because of my unrealistically high expectations for it. I think after getting some perspective, I appreciate it much more for what it was trying to be: a serious, more traditional chaos vs law SMT tale. Give it a maniax edition with a rebalanced difficulty curve, the mechanical improvements from Apocalypse and a better integration of the fiends (because fuck that random chance bullshit) and most of my problems with it go away. Also integrate the DLC into the story while you're at it.

Also, I think people give Jonathan and Walter too much crap, I like them and their roles in the story. Yeah, yeah, they're basically Mister Chaos and Sir Law personified, but I mean, it's not like the previous chaos and law heroes were super well developed or anything.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Going back to Record Breaker from Apocalypse is like a two gen descent.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Apocalypse was full of great ideas, but the writers seemed hamstrung and unable to take it all the way. The Divine Powers especially, it's already been said how it could've been about them trying to establish a Polytheistic order...

Spoiler

instead let's just kill everyone and make a new world. Sounds like the easy way out.

I'm torn on Lucifer. I love his depiction in Nocturne, but it's nice seeing him have center stage too. Apocalypse was a step in the right direction.

 

[randomkid]

honestly lucifer just looks too stupid and sounds too stupid for me to take him seriously in apocalypse. nothing magisterial about him at all, definitely doesn't live up to his awesome dungeon music.

the main problem with Apocalypse's writing is that because it's targeted to teens everything is pretty goofy. it's all very over-explained and unambiguous, taking ideas that were subtext in previous games and executing them flatly without any finesse. it just comes across as dumb.

 

[cj_iwakura]

honestly lucifer just looks too stupid and sounds too stupid for me to take him seriously in apocalypse. nothing magisterial about him at all, definitely doesn't live up to his awesome dungeon music.

the main problem with Apocalypse's writing is that because it's targeted to teens everything is pretty goofy. it's all very over-explained and unambiguous, taking ideas that were subtext in previous games and executing them flatly without any finesse. it just comes across as dumb.

It does have some moments of sheer nightmarish horror, namely (major endgame)

Spoiler

Shesha-Flynn eviscerating Asahi and the vicious deaths of your mentors in the very beginning.

But like with most things in Apocalypse, they don't run with it, or worse

Spoiler

it gets retconned. Asahi should have stayed dead after that. It would have been one hell of a gut punch to find out she couldn't be saved since Shesha ripped her to shreds.

I feel like they let the writers have some leeway to keep it 'dark', but then pulled back just enough to keep it from being too bleak.

 

[Salvadore0ran]

This thread reminds me that I should finish SMT IV someday. If only the map wasn't so confusing...

 

[jonjonaug]

This thread reminds me that I should finish SMT IV someday. If only the map wasn't so confusing...

Just use Google Maps when looking a place up, the map of Tokyo in the game is based on its layout in real life.

 

[Salvadore0ran]

Just use Google Maps when looking a place up, the map of Tokyo in the game is based on its layout in real life.

Yeah, but sounds tiresome. I'd prefer to watch LPs for realise where I need to go instead of that.

 

[Lynx_7]

If you're just doing the main story then going around Tokyo isn't too bad. Progression is pretty linear so as long as you keep going you'll eventually reach the next destination. It's when doing sidequests that things may get a little complicated when they tell you to go to a place without a terminal and you just can't remember where that is.

 

[Capra]

But like with most things in Apocalypse, they don't run with it, or worse

Spoiler

it gets retconned. Asahi should have stayed dead after that. It would have been one hell of a gut punch to find out she couldn't be saved since Shesha ripped her to shreds.

One of the many reasons I liked my

Spoiler

Massacre

ending.

Spoiler

You can bring Asahi back with Dagda's power, but it's clear she's nothing more than an empty shell constructed from Nanashi's memories of her. He even gives her the goggles back, as if it's a token of some twisted affection. It takes the wish-fulfillment of bringing her back and turns it into something wrong, like Pet Sematary.

 

[Dragon1893]

So glad to finally have a date for Apocalypse. Will be picking up Devil Survivor 2 RC from the eshop sale today which should keep me busy until then.

 

[marmoka]

@deepsilver
Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse will release 2 Dec in Europe! Find out more about the demons in the new trailer.

https://twitter.com/deepsilver/status/789036870315507712

This time, the game will have a physical release:

 

[Opa-Pa]

Dear god, I never hunted fiends in SMTIV due to how stupid the encounter method was, so I never knew this, but I just learned there's a new fiend based on chemtrails and I'm losing it. I love this series.

 

[Tizoc]

Does anyone know if the 3rd Digital Devil Story novel is available for purchase as PDF?

 

[Opa-Pa]

Decided to go back to SMT4 today to finish all the DLC that I bought but never played and man... It sure feels rough after Apocalypse. This game is so poorly balanced and it's so easy to gather a broken party that they couldn't come up with super bosses that weren't outright broken and unfair, because otherwise they wouldn't be hard. Of course you can still get yourself broken demons to destroy them in two turns (demons you can't get without MORE DLC of course), but it's so boring.

Apocalypse nerfed a lot of ridiculous moves and gave them smirk requirements and that single handedly changed everything. I mean Apocalypse's super boss is ridiculous because of his high level, but his attack pattern isn't unfair, just super tough, which results in him and the final boss being some of the coolest bosses I've fought in an RPG.

Anyway after a couple of hours I beat them all. It's such a shame Atlus got greedy because the archangels and Masakado's Shadow, with balancing and some adjustments to the plot, would have been the perfect match to the neutral route's barebones endgame.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

How is the first Devil Summoner game on PS2? Loved DS2.

 

[Lynx_7]

I agree with Masakado being completely broken and basically forcing you to cheese him with Pierce, but I thought the Archangels and Ancient-of-Days fights were fantastic, by far the most memorable bosses from the first game. I also beat the archangels with my standard story-party so I can't agree with them being unbalanced. I actually don't remember if I used any of the archangels against AOD or not though, but he should be beatable without using them regardless. The overall balance of the game is fucked (skills, smirk, demons) so there's not much that could be done without a complete mechanical overhaul, but they designed those bosses pretty well considering what they had.

Going back to SMT IV, the things that bother me the most are demons being completely interchangeable and the way Smirk works (which, to be fair, I'm still not the biggest fan even with all the improvements in Apocalypse. Wouldn't mind if they ditched the mechanic in SMT V).

 

[Opa-Pa]

My bad, I didn't mean to include the archangels in my rant at all, those were hard but fair and I too beat them with my regular team.

Ancient of Days I thought was interesting but... That diarahan was very annoying and I didn't have the patience for it, so I resorted go stigmata strike, which is a DLC skill.

Masakado and especially Sanat tho, holy hell, they're awful. Masakado wasn't an issue because I had my ridiculous Uriel already but Sanat wss terrible. He spams a stupid almighty attack that has chance of making your demons become lost (the only thing worse than insta killing them) whenever he feels like it. The rest of his attacks are pretty bad too but nothing as awful as that, so you either pray to the RNG gods or kill him in two turns, yikes.

I think smirk was great in Apocalypse (at last!) but I doubt it'll be back. They'll definitely try to keep some of the balance tweaks it brought but it feels like a signature feature of Apocalypse, so keeping it would be weird.

Another sad thing about IV and its DLCs is that they compliment the story so well and make it more interesting, which is something the game needed a lot. Also I was so sure they were into something with Mastema back then but he's not even a character in Apocalypse... That sucked, he's the best, I hope he's back in V.

How is the first Devil Summoner game on PS2? Loved DS2.

Haven't played 2 but the concensus is that it has a better story and more charm than the sequel, but the gameplay is extremely basic in comparison. I liked it a lot myself.

 

[Lynx_7]

Ancient of Days only uses diarahan if you abuse his weaknesses iirc. What I did was getting him to a low enough HP (mentally keeping track of how much damage I was dealing) and then going HAM on his weaknesses to kill him in a single turn. Was pretty fun and I really liked the story for that DLC. AOD has a really cool unstoppable-force-of-nature vibe going for him that they kinda tried to recreate with Shesha in Apocalypse, but less effectively since he wasn't as strong.
Sanat was a mistake. Fight, story, design, everything. Nothing but trash.

My problem with smirk is that it still feels too reliant on RNG. A single lucky crit from the enemy is all it takes for them to get an extra press turn, a smirk, another guaranteed extra press turn because of said smirk, and two more shots at your party for good measure (or three, if they happen to have 3 press turns and proceed to crit again, which will most likely give them another smirk for added damage). It feels specially bullshitty in Apocalypse (difficulty setting) because of the protagonist-death=game over clause.
I do agree they did the best they could with the concept in Apocalypse, so props to them.

 

[Jisgsaw]

How is the first Devil Summoner game on PS2? Loved DS2.

Do you mean the very first Devil Summoner game, that came out on Saturn, or the first Raidou game (which would be the... third? Devil Summoner game), which came out on PS2?

Haven't played the former, but the latter is basically Raidou 2 in worse. If you can stomach the atrocious encounter rate, and like Raidou 2, you could like it.

 

[Opa-Pa]

AOD only uses diarahan if I exploit its weaknesses? I... Wow, forget I said anything. I've never felt this unlucky to have found an enemy's weakness the first time lmao. I have to give that fight another go.

And yeah I see your point on smirks. I have to admit I'm a sucker for SMT games giving you and your enemies the same rules, so when I fuck up and let the enemy get a smirk I find it exciting... But I agree that it can lead to pretty bullshit scenarios pretty often.

What I really, really love about it in Apocalypse though is how it gives traditionally "too good" skills like salvation a requirement to make full use of them, that was just brilliant and what elevates the game so much in a mechanical sense. You can either have a party with regular high level skills, or use the ultimate ones that consume more MP (and man, is MP scarce in this game) and need certain conditions to work as true upgrades, it's great, and what I really want them to implement again in some form in future games.

 

[Lynx_7]

I would be ok with Smirk being a punishment for me fucking up, but when the enemy gets a crit in his first press turn and a bonus smirk to go with it there's not much I could've done to prevent that besides praying to the

Spoiler

True

RNGoddess. lol
It's cool when it's implemented in the fight like

Spoiler

King Frost

.

Some skills having extra smirk effects is great, but I genuinely think skills like Luster Candy should go. It's just way too good, why would you ever not have it on most of your demons? Taru, Maka, Suku and Rakukaja are rendered completely obsolete as soon as you get it.

 

[Arizato]

Just "finished" SMT IV, as in I got locked into Law path, decided it was utter bullshit and just spoiled the Neutral ending on Youtube.

I therefore have one question regarding SMT IV and it's connection to SMTIV: Final/Apocalypse:

Spoiler

Is it really worth it to play through Apocalypse? I mean, it just seems to tell the story on what happened to the last "incarnation" of the SMTIV protagonist. Which we more or less already know from the neutral ending of SMT IV, or am I getting things completely wrong here? I haven't spoiled the plot to Apocalypse, but I do know that Flynn makes an appearence and seeing it is 25 years earlier it just seems to match up waaaay too well.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Ended of fighting AOD again with a regular party I made specifically for him and that was tough but fun, feels great.

Just "finished" SMT IV, as in I got locked into Law path, decided it was utter bullshit and just spoiled the Neutral ending on Youtube.

I therefore have one question regarding SMT IV and it's connection to SMTIV: Final/Apocalypse:

Spoiler

Is it really worth it to play through Apocalypse? I mean, it just seems to tell the story on what happened to the last "incarnation" of the SMTIV protagonist. Which we more or less already know from the neutral ending of SMT IV, or am I getting things completely wrong here? I haven't spoiled the plot to Apocalypse, but I do know that Flynn makes an appearence and seeing it is 25 years earlier it just seems to match up waaaay too well.

You're definitely getting things mixed up. Apocalypse is an alternate conclusion to IV's neutral route. It starts around the time Flynn is gathering hope from Tokyo's citizens and then deviates from IV's story greatly, to the point it's impossible to predict how it'll go.

IMO it's the superior game and one of the best SMT games out there, so it's definitely worth it. But be warned that most of the areas in it are reused from IV, and a lot of the music too, so it might feel dull to play it so soon seeing as you just beat the original.

 

[Arizato]

Ended of fighting AOD again with a regular party I made specifically for him and that was tough but fun, feels great.



You're definitely getting things mixed up. Apocalypse is an alternate conclusion to IV's neutral route. It starts around the time Flynn is gathering hope from Tokyo's citizens and then deviates from IV's story greatly, to the point it's impossible to predict how it'll go.

IMO it's the superior game and one of the best SMT games out there, so it's definitely worth it. But be warned that most of the areas in it are reused from IV, and a lot of the music too, so it might feel dull to play it so soon seeing as you just beat the original.

Huh...

Well. I seem to have just made an ass out of myself. I remember reading it was supposed to be some kind of prequel around the time it was announced.

 

[Lynx_7]

If I were you I'd wait at least a few months before jumping into Apocalypse. It's a great game, many (myself included) consider it better than IV, but 95% of its maps are recycled from IV so it's going to feel way too familiar if you don't space them out.

And hey, don't worry about it, at least you're not one of the people who thought Apocalypse was just SMT IV GOTY edition.

Spoiler

I was one of them when they announced it as "Final"

 

[Arizato]

If I were you I'd wait at least a few months before jumping into Apocalypse. It's a great game, many (myself included) consider it better than IV, but 95% of its maps are recycled from IV so it's going to feel way too familiar if you don't space them out.

And hey, don't worry about it, at least you're not one of the people who thought Apocalypse was just SMT IV GOTY edition.

Spoiler

I was one of them when they announced it as "Final"

I am one of those unfortunate people to be an ATLUS fan and live in Europe, so I have to wait for December before I can play it anyway. Might be a good break while I finish some other games.

 

[cj_iwakura]

On Tuesday in Devil Survivor 2...

Spoiler

Does letting Io stay or not affect anything? I forget. Also, can I find Q later? Is it even possible on first cycle?

How is the first Devil Summoner game on PS2? Loved DS2.

The gameplay isn't as polished, but the story is fantastic. Ties to SMT 1 & 2, has a great cast and good progression. The sequel is shoehorned Law/Chaos drama and

Spoiler

Lucifer

, and gets dragged down by it. Keep that out of Devil Summoner, IMO.

I think of Devil Summoner as a bridge between Persona and SMT in tone. The occult plot and atmosphere of the latter, but with the established cast and linear story focus of the former.

 

[Kyonashi]

So I'm at (near end)

Spoiler

Kenji

in SMTIV, and the choice afterward

Spoiler

where the White ask you if you want to destroy the universe, and then make you pick a +10 Law/Chaos option

. Whichever of the two I pick i get put on the Law route or the Chaos route, so my alignment must be very central. Am I screwed for the neutral ending? Or is there a way i can tweak my alignment before the boss?

 

[Imp the Dimp]

The floor on DDS2's last dungeon

Spoiler

where you can only fight in human form

is super lame man. I hate garbage like this.

 

[jonjonaug]

So I'm at (near end)

Spoiler

Kenji

in SMTIV, and the choice afterward

Spoiler

where the White ask you if you want to destroy the universe, and then make you pick a +10 Law/Chaos option

. Whichever of the two I pick i get put on the Law route or the Chaos route, so my alignment must be very central. Am I screwed for the neutral ending? Or is there a way i can tweak my alignment before the boss?

Try this I guess: https://www.gamefaqs.com/3ds/672441-shin-megami-tensei-iv/faqs/67505?page=8

 

[Barrylocke]

So I'm at (near end)

Spoiler

Kenji

in SMTIV, and the choice afterward

Spoiler

where the White ask you if you want to destroy the universe, and then make you pick a +10 Law/Chaos option

. Whichever of the two I pick i get put on the Law route or the Chaos route, so my alignment must be very central. Am I screwed for the neutral ending? Or is there a way i can tweak my alignment before the boss?

Spoiler

If you saved right before Kenji then unfortunately I think you're screwed. The whites question is the only one before alignment at that point. If you saved earlier in Infernal Tokyo then you may have some wiggle room

 

[Dragon1893]

So I'm at (near end)

Spoiler

Kenji

in SMTIV, and the choice afterward

Spoiler

where the White ask you if you want to destroy the universe, and then make you pick a +10 Law/Chaos option

. Whichever of the two I pick i get put on the Law route or the Chaos route, so my alignment must be very central. Am I screwed for the neutral ending? Or is there a way i can tweak my alignment before the boss?

It's ironic but if you get to that point completely neutral you are actually forced into law/chaos.
It's incredibly stupid.

 

[VertPin]

Playing through Apocalypse right now. I'm pretty early on, I'd assume. I'm level 25, and I just

Spoiler

opened the ark seal and have to go find Flynn in fear of his safety.

Dumb question, but does Asahi grow as a character? I love her design. No spoilers please?

 

[Opa-Pa]

I never thought of how dumb it is that if you're into neutral territory in IV by the time you reach the whites you technically can't get into neutral lmao. I was lucky to be in the middle of neutral and chaos on my first playthrough so I basically had access to all three routes in a single save file.

Dumb question, but does Asahi grow as a character? I love her design. No spoilers please?

She does.

 

[Kyonashi]

Spoiler

If you saved right before Kenji then unfortunately I think you're screwed. The whites question is the only one before alignment at that point. If you saved earlier in Infernal Tokyo then you may have some wiggle room

It's ironic but if you get to that point completely neutral you are actually forced into law/chaos.
It's incredibly stupid.

...so I'm too Neutral to get the Neutral ending?

That's kinda stupid.

I have one save file before the

Spoiler

Kenji

fight, and another afterward but before you

Spoiler

press the remote

.

 

[VertPin]

I never thought of how dumb it is that if you're into neutral territory in IV by the time you reach the whites you technically can't get into neutral lmao. I was lucky to be in the middle of neutral and chaos on my first playthrough so I basically had access to all three routes in a single save file.



She does.

Thanks!

 

[Barrylocke]

...so I'm too Neutral to get the Neutral ending?

That's kinda stupid.

I have one save file before the

Spoiler

Kenji

fight, and another afterward but before you

Spoiler

press the remote

.

Then yeah, no Neutral ending for you. I'm not a fan of how they handled alignments in this game. Removing the guy that tells you your alignment after awhile, the very narrow strip between law and chaos, and of course the fact that you can manage to be too neutral to get the neutral path is all very flawed.

 

[Lynx_7]

The major problem with IV's neutral ending is that they don't give you a neutral choice at the very last question. Like, they could've kept the whole system as it is and given you a "I choose neither" alternative at the point of no return and that'd have fixed its biggest problem which is being too neutral for neutral. It doesn't even make sense for a neutral Flynn to make either choice anyway.

 

[randomkid]

Yeah in previous SMT games neutral makes sense because you're always given the opportunity to refuse and choose your own path. Neutrality is the logical consequence when everyone you confront demands you join them and you refuse them all. In SMT4 instead you're often forced to agree with the people who confront you, so neutrality in that game involves schizophrenically veering back and forth between chaos and law, which is kind of a dumb way to identify as neutral. Even though it's nice that decisions are very consequential, the implementation ends up being a disaster given the narrow window between the sides and especially with the final incoherent indignity of being punished for being too neutral.

SMT4A veers too far in the opposite direction by being extremely transparent for the three big decisions but making just about every other one of your choices inconsequential. I was very put off by how often scenes and the plot progressed exactly the same no matter your choice, which felt extremely out of keeping with the series. Having no build up at all to your final decision-making also made the weird dime-turn alignment shifts feel weightless in a way. I guess the friend points system was their attempt to build some kind of consequence in but it felt too meager and still leads to a rapid tonal shift when you go for any ending outside of "Bonds."

 

[Tizoc]

What WOULD Sugita's Persona be though.

 

[Lynx_7]

Kintaro (Sakata Kintoki), of course. Who else.

 

[asagami_]

Yeah in previous SMT games neutral makes sense because you're always given the opportunity to refuse and choose your own path. Neutrality is the logical consequence when everyone you confront demands you join them and you refuse them all. In SMT4 instead you're often forced to agree with the people who confront you, so neutrality in that game involves schizophrenically veering back and forth between chaos and law, which is kind of a dumb way to identify as neutral. Even though it's nice that decisions are very consequential, the implementation ends up being a disaster given the narrow window between the sides and especially with the final incoherent indignity of being punished for being too neutral.

I like the approach of the Ubergestalt trial. Either you are lightly law or chaos, you are given the option to reach neutrality. If you are already an extremist no choice for you. Ah, I loved the moment when I was attacked because I was beyond of salvation. It's too tempting follow the Law route

Spoiler

just to see what stupid thing is going to happen

Strange Journey still best game that SMT IV

Spoiler

I hope, someday, even Atlus will have to recognize it and bring us the real succesor of both Nocturne/IVApocalypse and Strange Journey ;_;

 

[RecursiveFault]

Here's a really long Kaneko interview that got fan translated
https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/the-other-face-of-the-demon-artist-kaneko-kazuma/

 

[Golnei]

Here's a really long Kaneko interview that got fan translated
https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/the-other-face-of-the-demon-artist-kaneko-kazuma/

Isn’t there something like a cosplay sex industry nowadays? I kind of want to try it and ask for Sonomura Maki.

So that's where he's been.

I hadn't heard any creators describe cosplay with the Frankenstein's monster comparison before, it's an interesting perspective. Thanks for linking the interview.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Here's a really long Kaneko interview that got fan translated
https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/the-other-face-of-the-demon-artist-kaneko-kazuma/

Wow, that's one candid interview. Thanks for sharing.


He seems so... blase about life. No real plans for the future, relationships, or kids. He just kind of goes with the flow.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Well that was an insightful interview, thanks for sharing!

Spoiler

Is this from before of after he became a janitor?

He seems like a really different person from what I imagined.

 

[randomkid]

always wondered what he was saying in those reams of text from digital devil apocalypse (everyone buy this artbook, you will love it), it's nice that thanks to wonderfully obsessive tumblr people now we all know!

Spoiler

Is this from before of after he became a janitor?

it's from 1999, so at least a decade before.

 

[cj_iwakura]

http://personacentral.com/nocturnal...hin-megami-tenseis-first-localization-part-1/

Great article about the demon localizations from resident occultist Eirikr. Demon names are always pretty dicey, nice to see them broken down.

 

[Dragon1893]

Here's a really long Kaneko interview that got fan translated
https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/the-other-face-of-the-demon-artist-kaneko-kazuma/

Wow, wasn't expecting it to be so big, he seems to be a really peculiar individual, some answers are so weird lol.