Should a man have a choice in becoming a father?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gaborn said:
Legally, if you have sex with an underage girl and she lies about her age you can still be charged with rape of a child. "deception" is not an excuse, you take a risk whenever you have sex.

I'm sure if "deception" was a valid legal excuse though EVERYONE who was asked to pay child support would be screaming about it.
Click to expand...

When did he ever mention underage girls?
 
Cindres said:
I can't tell if you're with or against me here.

But if it's against, hurr hurr well done at forming an argument by cutting off half my post.

It it's for, then i apologise.
Click to expand...
It's against. Honestly, cutting off your post didn't change the "argument" at all. You said if a man doesn't want to be a father, the woman should remind him to use a condom. If not, it's her fault he's a father.

This is screamingly stupid. If the man doesn't want to father a kid, it's up to him to make sure he does not. He shouldn't give up his control over that decision to the woman, then blame her if things don't work out like he would've liked. (But then a guy like that must have the brain of a child and probably shouldn't reproduce in either case.)
 
Gaborn said:
Legally, if you have sex with an underage girl and she lies about her age you can still be charged with rape of a child. "deception" is not an excuse, you take a risk whenever you have sex.
Click to expand...

Sure but lets say that you are in a commited relationship and the girl "decides" she is gonna stop taking BC and sabotage your condoms in order to "move the "relationship forward".

As a result, the relationship goes south and you break up over the deception.

You should be locked in for payments for 18 years?

Really?
 
Cindres said:
When did he ever mention underage girls?
Click to expand...

I was just using that to illustrate my point. You're responsible for having sex, whether it results in having a child or if it's WITH a child.

ryutaro's mama - Perhaps then you should have better taste in women? If she's that unstable you should've long since moved on.
 
Freshmaker said:
It's against. Honestly, cutting off your post didn't change the "argument" at all. You said if a man doesn't want to be a father, the woman should remind him to use a condom. If not, it's her fault he's a father.

This is screamingly stupid. If the man doesn't want to father a kid, it's up to him to make sure he does not. He shouldn't give up his control over that decision to the woman, then blame her if things don't work out like he would've liked. (But then a guy like that must have the brain of a child and probably shouldn't reproduce in either case.)
Click to expand...

So she decides she wants one and doesn't give a shit if he doesn't so doesn't remind him and then he gets stuck with it?
And you're gonna counter this with "Well he should have made the decision to wear one".

At which point, i'm out of this thread, fuck it. I don't know why but shit like this winds me up too much.
 
Cindres said:
So she decides she wants one and doesn't give a shit if he doesn't so doesn't remind him and then he gets stuck with it?
And you're gonna counter this with "Well he should have made the decision to wear one".
Click to expand...
Uh, yes. Mainly because if he doesn't want to be a father, it's sill within his power to prevent the pregnancy. All he has to do is use the damn condom. It shouldn't be up to the woman to tell him to use a condom.

If it is, the dude's mindless and had no choice in the first place. Your responsibility is ultimately yours alone.

At which point, i'm out of this thread, fuck it. I don't know why but shit like this winds me up too much.
Click to expand...
I know why.
 
Cindres said:
So she decides she wants one and doesn't give a shit if he doesn't so doesn't remind him and then he gets stuck with it?
And you're gonna counter this with "Well he should have made the decision to wear one".

At which point, i'm out of this thread, fuck it. I don't know why but shit like this winds me up too much.
Click to expand...

You actually need a reminder to use a condom? SERIOUSLY?
 
Freshmaker said:
It is a shame that a man has absolutely no birth control options outside of not having sex. A real shame. You'd think science would come forward and design some kind of mechanism to block the fluid transmission or something...
Click to expand...

Because condoms are effective 100% of the time, right? Do you honestly think people here are stupid enough to believe that they can advocate unprotected sex and offer an opinion on this issue? Save the sarcasm for when you're actually refuting a real point, not one you made up in your head.
 
Last post from me for today I think:
The act of having sex has thanks to modern science been fully seperated from the act of giving birth to a child. Ergo, you become a parent if you chose to. Sadly, this only holds true for women and not men. Because the preventive measures men can take won't work if she does get pregnant, while the woman always have an abortion waiting for her.

Women decide whether or not they become mothers if they get pregnant, men doesn't get to decide whether or not they ecome fathers if their sexual partner get pregnant - but its a choice that can and should be implemented by giving them the power to opt out of fatherhood in the eyes of the law.
 
Ben2749 said:
Because condoms are effective 100% of the time, right? Do you honestly think people here are are fucking stupid enough to believe that they can advocate unprotected sex and offer an opinion on this issue? Save the sarcasm for when you're actually refuting a real point, not one you made up in your head.
Click to expand...

I think some people in this thread are stupid enough to advocate "She didn't remind me to protect myself" sex. Does that count?
 
Equal rights and options for all!

I totally agree with this and I think that people saying "use a condom" or "don't have sex unless you want a baby" are missing the point. Here's how I see it:

A woman is pregnant. She has options and the man does not, simple as that. Forcing her to have an abortion is not possible so his choices can never be 100% equal to hers, but currently all of the control rests with her even though the baby is half his. Because of this he should have the choice to remove himself completely from its life if he wants to within the same window a woman has to get an abortion. There would need to be a signed document of his choice to support it or not so he could not change his mind later.

Maybe he was irresponsible, maybe she did deceive him, maybe neither one wanted a baby and it happened anyway, none of that matters. What matters is that men do not have anything even close to equal rights in this situation and in the age of equal rights that's wrong.

I personally would not agree with anyone taking this option unless they were deceived but I still think men should have the right to choose for themselves and live with the consequences.
 
Brian Griffin said:
A woman is pregnant. She has options and the man does not, simple as that. Forcing her to have an abortion is not possible so his choices can never be 100% equal to hers, but currently all of the control rests with her even though the baby is half his. Because of this he should have the choice to remove himself completely from its life if he wants to within the same window a woman has to get an abortion. There would need to be a signed document of his choice to support it or not so he could not change his mind later.
Click to expand...

This would be the best way of doing it. Not only would it prevent a man from retreating from a commitment he made, but it would also prevent men who distanced themselves from suddenly reappearing and demanding that they be entitled to spend time with the child (or even fight to try and get them back). It's less common, but it does happen.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
Does a man deserve to pay out money (for 18 years) for child he was deceived into fathering?

Remember, I'm making the case for deception situations, not all cases in general.
Click to expand...

Should a child lose critical financial support because his mother deceived his father?
 
Ben2749 said:
Because condoms are effective 100% of the time, right?
Click to expand...
More effective than using nothing then complaining about the situation you find yourself in.
Do you honestly think people here are stupid enough to believe that they can advocate unprotected sex and offer an opinion on this issue?
Click to expand...
Yes.
 
Brian Griffin said:
Exactly, just like a woman can get an abortion as soon as she finds out.
Click to expand...

Just like a tubal ligation is more serious than a vasectomy in terms of risk and invasiveness an abortion is a lot more difficult and dangerous than "bailing out." Men who get unplanned pregnancies should take care of their kids where applicable and stand up.
 
I'm surprised this topic is still going on. It will continue to be a circular argument because there is no good solution to the problem to OP proposed. The "Use a condom/abstain from sex/man up" crowd is firmly entrenched in their position that males should bow to female power over what happens to the "potential" child.

Men do have a choice of paying or not paying the child support payments. If they decide not to then they can go to jail. The real kick in the ass is when the father wants to have the child but the woman does not. The only solution to this is to force the woman against her will to bring the child to term and then hand over custody to the male.
 
Brian Griffin said:
Equal rights and options for all!

I totally agree with this and I think that people saying "use a condom" or "don't have sex unless you want a baby" are missing the point. Here's how I see it:

A woman is pregnant. She has options and the man does not, simple as that. Forcing her to have an abortion is not possible so his choices can never be 100% equal to hers, but currently all of the control rests with her even though the baby is half his. Because of this he should have the choice to remove himself completely from its life if he wants to within the same window a woman has to get an abortion. There would need to be a signed document of his choice to support it or not so he could not change his mind later.

Maybe he was irresponsible, maybe she did deceive him, maybe neither one wanted a baby and it happened anyway, none of that matters. What matters is that men do not have anything even close to equal rights in this situation and in the age of equal rights that's wrong.

I personally would not agree with anyone taking this option unless they were deceived but I still think men should have the right to choose for themselves and live with the consequences.
Click to expand...

This is definitely one of the most reasonable suggestions I've seen in this thread. It allows the man to legally remove himself from the picture, instead of doing what they do now (running off). Hell, it even requires him to be opt into the option ala women getting an abortion.

If this were available and made well known to both men and women we could avoid lots of pregnancies where the guy is being forced to become a father for whatever reason by the mother.

Edit: Ah, I almost forgot. One of the things this setup would do is increase the number of abortions. Why? It'd cause women would be solely responsible for the child. Not that different from what happens when an unwilling father leaves after the kid's birth, but while she's pregnant? The thought alone would spur them to get an abortion.

I'm sure we'd see more households where the children are truly wanted. That should be the goal here. Not "buck up" or taking rights from women.
 
Toski said:
I'm surprised this topic is still going on. It will continue to be a circular argument because there is no good solution to the problem to OP proposed. The "Use a condom/abstain from sex/man up" crowd is firmly entrenched in their position that males should bow to female power over what happens to the "potential" child.

Men do have a choice of paying or not paying the child support payments. If they decide not to then they can go to jail. The real kick in the ass is when the father wants to have the child but the woman does not. The only solution to this is to force the woman against her will to bring the child to term and then hand over custody to the male.
Click to expand...

Or have their wages garnished by court order. It's also worth noting that BOTH sides are pretty firmly entrenched, particularly the "she didn't remind me to use a condom!!!!" crowd.
 
If you're having sex with a woman and you get her pregnant, it's your responsibility. A man has a choice of whether he wants to be a father or not by deciding whether he's going to go inbetween a woman's thighs. I don't know since when sex has merely become some kind of fun game completely free of repercussions and responsibilities. If a man has an unwanted child, too bad, he still needs to live up to the responsibility of something he helped create.
 
Gaborn said:
Or have their wages garnished by court order. It's also worth noting that BOTH sides are pretty firmly entrenched, particularly the "she didn't remind me to use a condom!!!!" crowd.
Click to expand...
I'd stop working if that was the case, and take jail time. The "she didn't remind me to use a condom" is stupid, and nobody has sympathy for them.
 
Mystic Theurge said:
Should a child lose critical financial support because his mother deceived his father?
Click to expand...
It's a sad situation the mother puts her child in. But I'm of the belief that we'd end up with less single mothers and find ourselves in a situation where mothers with money are really the only one that ignores her partner opting out as a father - as they don't need his money anyway.
 
Toski said:
I'd stop working if that was the case, and take jail time. The "she didn't remind me to use a condom" is stupid, and nobody has sympathy for them.
Click to expand...

Rather than taking responsibility for what you did you'd go to jail? REALLY? You're gonna make a GREAT dad some day.

and "nobody has sympathy for them" but I didn't exactly hear too many of you guys protesting the person advocating that position earlier.
 
Mystic Theurge said:
Should a child lose critical financial support because his mother deceived his father?
Click to expand...

Does a child deserves to be aborted because his mother doesn't want him even if his father does want him? Right now: yes.

Does a child deserves to be aborted because his father doesn't want him and his mother does want him? Right now: no.
 
kevm3 said:
If you're having sex with a woman and you get her pregnant, it's your responsibility. A man has a choice of whether he wants to be a father or not by deciding whether he's going to go inbetween a woman's thighs. I don't know since when sex has merely become some kind of fun game completely free of repercussions and responsibilities. If a man has an unwanted child, too bad, he still needs to live up to the responsibility of something he helped create.
Click to expand...
This has been said to death now.

The female decides whether or not she becomes a mother when she is pregnant.
The male does not decide whether or not he becomes a father when his partner is pregnant.

There, thats your problem right there.

Now how do we deal with it?
I suggest that men get a similar ability to opt out of fatherhood, just like the right to opt out of motherhood through legal abortions that women gained some time ago. Except when the father opts out, nothing is aborted - it's still up to the woman whether or not she wants one, her rights remain intact.

Yeah, we're really going in circles.
 
Toski said:
It will continue to be a circular argument because there is no good solution to the problem to OP proposed.
Click to expand...
Ultimately this. I'm know the points I've made are pretty extreme and I know bailing isn't the same as abortion. Abortion isn't something anyone should ever take lightly but there is a gross inequality in the system and I think there is a lot of room for men to get screwed over.
 
Gaborn said:
Rather than taking responsibility for what you did you'd go to jail? REALLY? You're gonna make a GREAT dad some day.

and "nobody has sympathy for them" but I didn't exactly hear too many of you guys protesting the person advocating that position earlier.
Click to expand...
When I have a child they will be welcomed into the world and I will love them. If I was practicing protected sex with my partner and it failed somehow and I had a dead end job supporting a kid I didn't want to pay for, then not paying and accepting jail time is accepting responsibility and accepting the consequences of your actions. It isn't good for the child, but it is "do the crime, do the time."
 
Espada said:
Shanandeus, Brian Griffin posted something like what you're talking about further up.
Click to expand...
I'm writing on and off from a DS, so I kinda miss out a little. And that's why I called Poland "Poleland" :lol

Hilbert said:
Not to mention proving deception or sabotage would be next to impossible legally, unless there is a contract.

And trying to get a woman to sign such a contract is a nice way to make sure you never have sex, so you never become a parent.
Click to expand...
Implement something like this:

A woman should for example contact the social services and inform them that she is pregnant, and who the potential father is, whom they'll then contact to confirm whether or not he will take responsibility and become the legally recognized father of the child. If he says no then they'll directly contact the mother and inform her of his choice, and she can either try to discuss with the guy or just get an abortion.
Click to expand...

You now have everything recorded in case they go back on their word.
 
Broken Arrow said:
Does a child deserves to be aborted because his mother doesn't want him even if his father does want him? Right now: yes.

Does a child deserves to be aborted because his father doesn't want him and his mother does want him? Right now: no.
Click to expand...
There's no way to make that equal unless they get those artificial wombs up and running. Til then, keep cryin'.
 
Broken Arrow said:
Does a child deserves to be aborted because his mother doesn't want him even if his father does want him? Right now: yes.

Does a child deserves to be aborted because his father doesn't want him and his mother does want him? Right now: no.
Click to expand...

And?

Shanadeus said:
It's a sad situation the mother puts her child in. But I'm of the belief that we'd end up with less single mothers and find ourselves in a situation where mothers with money are really the only one that ignores her partner opting out as a father - as they don't need his money anyway.
Click to expand...

You didn't answer the question.
 
Take away the womans choice or give the man one too.

Equal protection under law.

They are the only two fair solutions.
 
Shanadeus said:
I'm writing on and off from a DS, so I kinda miss out a little. And that's why I called Poland "Poleland" :lol
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. But yeah, this is an inequality that deserves to be fixed because it's a raw deal for guys and children. Men deserve the right to become fathers when they decide to, not when a woman does. Children deserve fathers and mothers that wanted them from the earliest moments, not a sperm donor who loathes them because the mother believes what she wants is right.
 
goomba said:
Take away the womans choice, then they are equally screwed.
Click to expand...

Umm, no. I firmly believe the woman should have control over her own body, so this is a no go.

If a man wants kids and the woman aborts it, he should drop her like a rock and find a woman that does. The law doesn't need to get involved there.
 
Mystic Theurge said:
And?



You didn't answer the question.
Click to expand...

Because it's red herring really, by implementing such a system you'd probably end up with fewer kids with deadbeat dads that run away. I'll try dig up some numbers tomorrow on the number of children in single parent homes that end up with no financial support from their father/mother because he or she simply ran away and avoided the payments.

Should a child lose critical financial support because his mother deceived his father?
Click to expand...

Children does lose critical financial support time after time again because of mothers deceiving their fathers. I'm talking about when the mother has concieved the child with some random man, and the partner to the mother request a paternity test and leaves upon finding out that he's not the father.

And there you have it, a child that has lost critical financial support because his mother deceived his father. The father might not be biological but it's not really relevant.
 
Mystic Theurge said:
The man has a choice.
Click to expand...
Go read Brian Griffin's post. Having sex makes a man no more a father than having sex makes a woman a mother. Women have a choice to become mothers or not, giving men a legal option of doing the same is the way to go. No one's rights are infringed upon, and kids would be wanted.
 
Broken Arrow said:
Don't you think a man has the right to have a baby he does want even if the woman doesn't want him, but she freely decided to have unprotected sex with him?
Click to expand...

No, because she has a right to her own body. She decides whether the kid is born or not. You can't force her to do so without violating her rights.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A Different Man (2024)
7
730
RagnarokIV replied
Which character should get a break?
27
1K
Jinzo Prime replied
Jason Statham is...A Working Man
2
63
3K
AJUMP23 replied
What are some “essentials” you would have for walking around a convention? (ideally that fit in a fanny-pack?)
40
1K
BlackTron replied
Man pays £4.9m to eat a banana.
30
2K
HoodWinked replied
Top Bottom