Should a man have a choice in becoming a father?
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Freshmaker
I am Korean.
It's against. Honestly, cutting off your post didn't change the "argument" at all. You said if a man doesn't want to be a father, the woman should remind him to use a condom. If not, it's her fault he's a father.Cindres said:
This is screamingly stupid. If the man doesn't want to father a kid, it's up to him to make sure he does not. He shouldn't give up his control over that decision to the woman, then blame her if things don't work out like he would've liked. (But then a guy like that must have the brain of a child and probably shouldn't reproduce in either case.)
ryutaro's mama
Member
Gaborn said:
Sure but lets say that you are in a commited relationship and the girl "decides" she is gonna stop taking BC and sabotage your condoms in order to "move the "relationship forward".
As a result, the relationship goes south and you break up over the deception.
You should be locked in for payments for 18 years?
Really?
paranoidfortean
Member
No child no sex. Choice is there. Control yourself. Easy. Otherwise, you are stupid.
Cindres said:
I was just using that to illustrate my point. You're responsible for having sex, whether it results in having a child or if it's WITH a child.
ryutaro's mama - Perhaps then you should have better taste in women? If she's that unstable you should've long since moved on.
Freshmaker said:
So she decides she wants one and doesn't give a shit if he doesn't so doesn't remind him and then he gets stuck with it?
And you're gonna counter this with "Well he should have made the decision to wear one".
At which point, i'm out of this thread, fuck it. I don't know why but shit like this winds me up too much.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Uh, yes. Mainly because if he doesn't want to be a father, it's sill within his power to prevent the pregnancy. All he has to do is use the damn condom. It shouldn't be up to the woman to tell him to use a condom.Cindres said:
If it is, the dude's mindless and had no choice in the first place. Your responsibility is ultimately yours alone.
I know why.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
If he doesn't, it's her problem anyway. No reason to think about it.Gaborn said:
Shotgun Kiss
Member
Freshmaker said:
Because condoms are effective 100% of the time, right? Do you honestly think people here are stupid enough to believe that they can advocate unprotected sex and offer an opinion on this issue? Save the sarcasm for when you're actually refuting a real point, not one you made up in your head.
Last post from me for today I think:
The act of having sex has thanks to modern science been fully seperated from the act of giving birth to a child. Ergo, you become a parent if you chose to. Sadly, this only holds true for women and not men. Because the preventive measures men can take won't work if she does get pregnant, while the woman always have an abortion waiting for her.
Women decide whether or not they become mothers if they get pregnant, men doesn't get to decide whether or not they ecome fathers if their sexual partner get pregnant - but its a choice that can and should be implemented by giving them the power to opt out of fatherhood in the eyes of the law.
The act of having sex has thanks to modern science been fully seperated from the act of giving birth to a child. Ergo, you become a parent if you chose to. Sadly, this only holds true for women and not men. Because the preventive measures men can take won't work if she does get pregnant, while the woman always have an abortion waiting for her.
Women decide whether or not they become mothers if they get pregnant, men doesn't get to decide whether or not they ecome fathers if their sexual partner get pregnant - but its a choice that can and should be implemented by giving them the power to opt out of fatherhood in the eyes of the law.
Brian Griffin
Member
Equal rights and options for all!
I totally agree with this and I think that people saying "use a condom" or "don't have sex unless you want a baby" are missing the point. Here's how I see it:
A woman is pregnant. She has options and the man does not, simple as that. Forcing her to have an abortion is not possible so his choices can never be 100% equal to hers, but currently all of the control rests with her even though the baby is half his. Because of this he should have the choice to remove himself completely from its life if he wants to within the same window a woman has to get an abortion. There would need to be a signed document of his choice to support it or not so he could not change his mind later.
Maybe he was irresponsible, maybe she did deceive him, maybe neither one wanted a baby and it happened anyway, none of that matters. What matters is that men do not have anything even close to equal rights in this situation and in the age of equal rights that's wrong.
I personally would not agree with anyone taking this option unless they were deceived but I still think men should have the right to choose for themselves and live with the consequences.
I totally agree with this and I think that people saying "use a condom" or "don't have sex unless you want a baby" are missing the point. Here's how I see it:
A woman is pregnant. She has options and the man does not, simple as that. Forcing her to have an abortion is not possible so his choices can never be 100% equal to hers, but currently all of the control rests with her even though the baby is half his. Because of this he should have the choice to remove himself completely from its life if he wants to within the same window a woman has to get an abortion. There would need to be a signed document of his choice to support it or not so he could not change his mind later.
Maybe he was irresponsible, maybe she did deceive him, maybe neither one wanted a baby and it happened anyway, none of that matters. What matters is that men do not have anything even close to equal rights in this situation and in the age of equal rights that's wrong.
I personally would not agree with anyone taking this option unless they were deceived but I still think men should have the right to choose for themselves and live with the consequences.
blame space
Banned
love this shit.vooglie said:
EDiT: thought it said "ball".
Shotgun Kiss
Member
Brian Griffin said:
This would be the best way of doing it. Not only would it prevent a man from retreating from a commitment he made, but it would also prevent men who distanced themselves from suddenly reappearing and demanding that they be entitled to spend time with the child (or even fight to try and get them back). It's less common, but it does happen.
Mystic Theurge
Member
ryutaro's mama said:
Should a child lose critical financial support because his mother deceived his father?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
More effective than using nothing then complaining about the situation you find yourself in.Ben2749 said:
Yes.
Brian Griffin
Member
Exactly, just like a woman can get an abortion as soon as she finds out.vooglie said:
Mystic Theurge
Member
Brian Griffin said:
Having an abortion and bailing are not the same thing.
Brian Griffin said:
Just like a tubal ligation is more serious than a vasectomy in terms of risk and invasiveness an abortion is a lot more difficult and dangerous than "bailing out." Men who get unplanned pregnancies should take care of their kids where applicable and stand up.
I'm surprised this topic is still going on. It will continue to be a circular argument because there is no good solution to the problem to OP proposed. The "Use a condom/abstain from sex/man up" crowd is firmly entrenched in their position that males should bow to female power over what happens to the "potential" child.
Men do have a choice of paying or not paying the child support payments. If they decide not to then they can go to jail. The real kick in the ass is when the father wants to have the child but the woman does not. The only solution to this is to force the woman against her will to bring the child to term and then hand over custody to the male.
Men do have a choice of paying or not paying the child support payments. If they decide not to then they can go to jail. The real kick in the ass is when the father wants to have the child but the woman does not. The only solution to this is to force the woman against her will to bring the child to term and then hand over custody to the male.
Brian Griffin
Member
It's the option closest to abortion that a man can have. He can't abort the baby so he should be able to abort himself.Mystic Theurge said:
Brian Griffin said:
This is definitely one of the most reasonable suggestions I've seen in this thread. It allows the man to legally remove himself from the picture, instead of doing what they do now (running off). Hell, it even requires him to be opt into the option ala women getting an abortion.
If this were available and made well known to both men and women we could avoid lots of pregnancies where the guy is being forced to become a father for whatever reason by the mother.
Edit: Ah, I almost forgot. One of the things this setup would do is increase the number of abortions. Why? It'd cause women would be solely responsible for the child. Not that different from what happens when an unwilling father leaves after the kid's birth, but while she's pregnant? The thought alone would spur them to get an abortion.
I'm sure we'd see more households where the children are truly wanted. That should be the goal here. Not "buck up" or taking rights from women.
If you're having sex with a woman and you get her pregnant, it's your responsibility. A man has a choice of whether he wants to be a father or not by deciding whether he's going to go inbetween a woman's thighs. I don't know since when sex has merely become some kind of fun game completely free of repercussions and responsibilities. If a man has an unwanted child, too bad, he still needs to live up to the responsibility of something he helped create.
Mystic Theurge
Member
Brian Griffin said:
I already explained why that's impossible.
It's a sad situation the mother puts her child in. But I'm of the belief that we'd end up with less single mothers and find ourselves in a situation where mothers with money are really the only one that ignores her partner opting out as a father - as they don't need his money anyway.Mystic Theurge said:
Broken Arrow
Member
Mystic Theurge said:
Does a child deserves to be aborted because his mother doesn't want him even if his father does want him? Right now: yes.
Does a child deserves to be aborted because his father doesn't want him and his mother does want him? Right now: no.
This has been said to death now.kevm3 said:
The female decides whether or not she becomes a mother when she is pregnant.
The male does not decide whether or not he becomes a father when his partner is pregnant.
There, thats your problem right there.
Now how do we deal with it?
I suggest that men get a similar ability to opt out of fatherhood, just like the right to opt out of motherhood through legal abortions that women gained some time ago. Except when the father opts out, nothing is aborted - it's still up to the woman whether or not she wants one, her rights remain intact.
Yeah, we're really going in circles.
Brian Griffin
Member
Ultimately this. I'm know the points I've made are pretty extreme and I know bailing isn't the same as abortion. Abortion isn't something anyone should ever take lightly but there is a gross inequality in the system and I think there is a lot of room for men to get screwed over.Toski said:
When I have a child they will be welcomed into the world and I will love them. If I was practicing protected sex with my partner and it failed somehow and I had a dead end job supporting a kid I didn't want to pay for, then not paying and accepting jail time is accepting responsibility and accepting the consequences of your actions. It isn't good for the child, but it is "do the crime, do the time."Gaborn said:
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
There's no way to make that equal unless they get those artificial wombs up and running. Til then, keep cryin'.Broken Arrow said:
Mystic Theurge
Member
Broken Arrow said:
And?
Shanadeus said:
You didn't answer the question.
Shanadeus said:
Oh, I see. But yeah, this is an inequality that deserves to be fixed because it's a raw deal for guys and children. Men deserve the right to become fathers when they decide to, not when a woman does. Children deserve fathers and mothers that wanted them from the earliest moments, not a sperm donor who loathes them because the mother believes what she wants is right.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
No. The woman's getting screwed over more in that case.goomba said:
Mystic Theurge
Member
goomba said:
The man has a choice.
Mystic Theurge said:
Because it's red herring really, by implementing such a system you'd probably end up with fewer kids with deadbeat dads that run away. I'll try dig up some numbers tomorrow on the number of children in single parent homes that end up with no financial support from their father/mother because he or she simply ran away and avoided the payments.
Children does lose critical financial support time after time again because of mothers deceiving their fathers. I'm talking about when the mother has concieved the child with some random man, and the partner to the mother request a paternity test and leaves upon finding out that he's not the father.
And there you have it, a child that has lost critical financial support because his mother deceived his father. The father might not be biological but it's not really relevant.
Go read Brian Griffin's post. Having sex makes a man no more a father than having sex makes a woman a mother. Women have a choice to become mothers or not, giving men a legal option of doing the same is the way to go. No one's rights are infringed upon, and kids would be wanted.Mystic Theurge said:
Broken Arrow
Member
Mystic Theurge said:
Don't you think a man has the right to have a baby he does want even if the woman doesn't want him, but she freely decided to have unprotected sex with him?
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