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[Tain]

Beat the trial stage on Insane, and yeah, this isn't really for me.

The chunky popcorn enemies, the made-for-analog controls, the occasional readability problems, the point-blank suicide bullets, the Darius Gaiden style autofire, a lot of room for error if you're reasonably consistent in getting enemies killed... And it's all very slow. Slow scrolling, slow bullets, slow music, sloooow cutscenes (even when fast forwarding), and the ship is laggier than most (speaking of Garegga, lol). It's gorgeous, and a better game than I expected, but the issues still start to stack. Good for those who want something atmospheric, but it's not what I'm looking for.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I like how the reaction here is the polar opposite to the reaction on Shmups Forum.

Are you surprised? I respect the place a lot, but my god are they elitist.

Any place that loves Shiki 2 is cool by me, but then, they also hate Touhou.


A lot of shmup devs reach out to that board, too, which is kind of disheartening. They won't have a very good view of the community afterward, that's for sure.

 

[Tain]

There's nothing wrong with being super picky and disliking Touhou, but yeah, you gotta wade through a lot of BS at that place to get to the good posts/posters.

 

[V_Arnold]

Yeah, there is definitely a lot of respectful posters around there as well.

 

[Wizpig]

Also, the language being spoken is pure hungarian. : )

I was wondering this.
No English switch or other languages, right?

Btw, the demo was <3
After Deathsmiles and Jamestown another shmup i need to buy. (with Dodonpachi and Akai)

 

[Hawk SE]

I was wondering this.
No English switch or other languages, right?

Btw, the demo was <3
After Deathsmiles and Jamestown another shmup i need to buy. (with Dodonpachi and Akai)

Nope. It's just the voice over with english subtitle, no other options. I prefer it that way to be honest, it makes it more memorable and gives it a sense of place.

 

[adversesolutions]

While I don't agree with the posters on shmups, there are a few things that for me, will probably kill playing this game for score.

- Poor controls
These may be only an issue with using a joystick, but you need precise controls for a danmaku shooter. You also need them when you have environment death-based levels where you have to move precisely with a moving target or lose a life. So far, Sine Mora does not have this in my experience with my joystick. People at shmups are saying that it controls better with a 360 pad so I will give that a try tonight.

- Randomized Item placement
Tell me this is a Story-mode only thing. I haven't gotten around to Arcade mode yet, but it seems that all item placements are randomized and change with every run. This is a cardinal sin of shooter game design because you basically reduce the game to a dice roll. If you can't pick up several power-up shots on one stage you will be too weak to kill some of the enemies on-screen, and if you miss the alt weapon pick ups you will be liable to miss enemies that are on upper or lower paths, leading to a drop in your completion percentage/score. Since it's randomized you have no way of stabilizing it which reduces motivation to score attack.

So far those two are my biggest issues with the game. Definitely going to keep playing it over the next week.

 

[Phoenix Fang]

Anyone else getting borders on their TV? I'm on a 46" LCD and about 5 to 6" of the screen is used up as a border.

 

[Community Forum]

This game is cool. Boss names sound like Ikea furniture.

 

[StarCreator]

Anyone else getting borders on their TV? I'm on a 46" LCD and about 5 to 6" of the screen is used up as a border.

Apparently, this was a conscious design decision. The game runs at a 2.35:1 aspect ratio rather than the typical 16:9.

 

[Gaspode_T]

I am not surprised to see hardcore shmup fans taking this game in some sort of negative or semi-negative way, because it's a game that is trying to expand the audience by making it a little more accessible. The Japanese hardcore are comparing it in some way to Battle Garegga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Garegga Some of them have complaints but many of them seem to be digging it.

I think it's not a game to be compared to anything like a Cave shooter, the only thing comparable would be something like Einhander or maybe even some sort of action game like Outland. It's slow for a reason and even on top of that you can squeeze the trigger and do slo-mo, which if that wasn't there the game would instantly be out of most people's leagues.

The atmosphere, interface, graphics, music, everything is top notch and the game deserves its 9.5/10 reviews.

 

[gunstarhero]

The Japanese hardcore are comparing it in some way to Battle Garegga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Garegga Some of them have complaints but many of them seem to be digging it.

I've heard this from a few people actually -

Just played Sine Mora for an hour, and while that's hardly enough time, I definitely don't see the comparison with Gareega...

Battle Gareega is all about balancing your play and power-ups and not getting greedy - because the game scales the difficulty the more you shoot, power-up and live. I may be missing something, but Sine Mora didn't seem to do any of that in my short play.

Maybe they are comparing it aesthetically?

Regardless, I'm LOVING this game - it's nice to play something different in this genre. I played using my arcade stick, and will agree it didn't feel as natural as with other shooters. I'll give the pad a chance tomorrow and see how I like it. It DOES feel different from other shooters - which is most likely why a ot of people are complaining - but I think it's a nice change.

Well worth the money - and it's another awesome shooter in the XBLA collection.

 

[Community Forum]

Wow, this game is just really slick. Feels like I'm playing a game from the future. I don't really know what that means exactly, but the whole package is just so well put together from a presentation and technical standpoint. I'm quite pleased. Played for a while and then saw an option for 3D in the menus. I must say 3D adds a very nice layer of depth to everything.

 

[JEKKI]

maaaan Ima get this game!

over the weekend lol

 

[Gaspode_T]

I think they are doing the "compare it to closest thing they can think of and complain about differences" thing

I've pretty much never seen a shooting game that has such slick presentation and cinematics...

The only thing I see consistently ragged on is the cave level now.

 

[@MUWANdo]

I think they are doing the "compare it to closest thing they can think of and complain about differences" thing

People keep making Garegga comparisons because the devs mentioned Garegga in every single interview, and repeatedly made the comparison on the shmups board, etc. They brought this on themselves.

I'm no shmup elitist - I have nothing against horis, or non-danmaku games, or non-Cave games or whatever - but this game isn't really anything like Garegga or any other modern shooter, and it doesn't really feel like an "alternate evolution" or whatever. I'm not sure "disappointed" is how I feel... "bewildered", definitely.

 

[danmaku]

I've heard this from a few people actually -

Just played Sine Mora for an hour, and while that's hardly enough time, I definitely don't see the comparison with Gareega...

Battle Gareega is all about balancing your play and power-ups and not getting greedy - because the game scales the difficulty the more you shoot, power-up and live. I may be missing something, but Sine Mora didn't seem to do any of that in my short play.

Maybe they are comparing it aesthetically?

The game has a medal system, like in Garegga (you pick up medals of increasing value and if you miss one the chain resets). That, and some bullets are hard to see, which isn't really a good thing to copy lol. The rest of the game is totally different. It must be played with a pad, don't waste your time with and arcade stick. I don't like that, but I can understand they wanted the game to be more accessible.

 

[V_Arnold]

Battle Gareega is all about balancing your play and power-ups and not getting greedy - because the game scales the difficulty the more you shoot, power-up and live. I may be missing something, but Sine Mora didn't seem to do any of that in my short play.

As far as I know, in Sine Mora enemies shoot more at you the higher your rank is. So going through a zone with A is harder than going through it on C. Saw this being mentioned in the ingame encyclopedia, but it was after 2am, so I might have to double check that.

 

[Tokubetsu]

TIME MASS STABALIZED.

I really like this setting.

 

[decaf]

My review went up yesterday on Ready Up. I didn't really go into the scoring mechanics as I really think most folks are not shmup fanatics.

Found a pic of the devs reading the reviews too:

 

[Xater]

This game is pretty awesome. It's also nice to see one of these games that actually looks really nice.

 

[Daigoro]

this game sounds like a mess. im going to get the demo, but it's almost a guarantee that i wont be buying it.

no remappable buttons and analog based controls are big no no's. huge turnoff for me.

 

[eso76]

bought it.
it's very pretty, probably the first game of this kind taking advantage of current gen tech, and has a few little cool and rather 'new' ideas, but it's somewhat clunky and reminescent of 90's european shoot em ups; few enemies onscreen with lifebars is not what i want in my shmups, i prefer the hordes of one bullet fodder approach.

Story mode is too slow and with far too many cutscenes.
There's a few too many instadeath moments too, although that might be because i suck.

Don't know, i don't regret buying it, but it's not the new Einhander or anything.

 

[Gaspode_T]

Hearing people toss the euroshmup term out like some sort of racial slur gives me chills up my spine! If the shmup community can't even band together over a game this good it is doomed to fall into more and more of a niche

I am having more fun with it than any other shmup games I have played, but I am not a shmup expert of any sort so probably is part of it

 

[danmaku]

Hearing people toss the euroshmup term out like some sort of racial slur gives me chills up my spine! If the shmup community can't even band together over a game this good it is doomed to fall into more and more of a niche

I am having more fun with it than any other shmup games I have played, but I am not a shmup expert of any sort so probably is part of it

The shmup community can't "band together" over any game, no matter how good it is (like any other community, I guess). Not even sacred cows like Ketsui or Ikaruga are universally praised, and this game isn't exactly amazing, anyway. It's good, but that's it. I can't see myself playing it for hundreds of hours, trying to improve my score.

 

[V_Arnold]

Oh, I keep replaying the levels over and over and over again.
I am addicted to this. The game almost kept me from writing the review in time, which speaks about its quality.

And I also made the jump to analoge stick on the normal 360 controller - needless to say, the ship's controls are way better now. And I have gotten used to the previous, rather harsh method of using the stick -.-

Also managed to crawl back to 12th place on the Leaderboard for 2nd difficulty - and this is with what was basically an unrefined 5th/6th/7th mission. After some practice, top10 is easily crackable - unless some proper players finally decide to learn the game instead of getting shocked that this does not play like game x or y : D

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Not a shmup fan, they're too hardcore for me, I kind of missed the boat.

But I did really like the demo. Can't justify the 1200 points, but I'll definitely pick it up down the line during a sale.

 

[StarCreator]

Oh, I keep replaying the levels over and over and over again.
I am addicted to this. The game almost kept me from writing the review in time, which speaks about its quality.

And I also made the jump to analoge stick on the normal 360 controller - needless to say, the ship's controls are way better now. And I have gotten used to the previous, rather harsh method of using the stick -.-

Also managed to crawl back to 12th place on the Leaderboard for 2nd difficulty - and this is with what was basically an unrefined 5th/6th/7th mission. After some practice, top10 is easily crackable - unless some proper players finally decide to learn the game instead of getting shocked that this does not play like game x or y : D

I think the problem is more that this doesn't play like game A to Z. Going from people whose opinions I trust, this game seems to forgo a lot of genre standards - established with years of evolution and player feedback - for no real benefit other than thinking they'll somehow reach a wider market by creating something they know fans of the genre will reject. Things like digital controls and predictable item drop patterns have become standard and I have yet to hear a convincing argument why this norm should be shaken.

I'm not out to say it's a bad game, but it certainly makes some questionable design decisions that render skills developed on Japanese danmaku completely useless, all of them aimed to attract a target demographic that is both completely unresearched and likely doesn't exist.

 

[Tain]

- Randomized Item placement
Tell me this is a Story-mode only thing. I haven't gotten around to Arcade mode yet, but it seems that all item placements are randomized and change with every run. This is a cardinal sin of shooter game design because you basically reduce the game to a dice roll. If you can't pick up several power-up shots on one stage you will be too weak to kill some of the enemies on-screen, and if you miss the alt weapon pick ups you will be liable to miss enemies that are on upper or lower paths, leading to a drop in your completion percentage/score. Since it's randomized you have no way of stabilizing it which reduces motivation to score attack.

I think they're random in Arcade.

The shmup community can't "band together" over any game, no matter how good it is (like any other community, I guess).

Yeah. And they shouldn't be expected to do that rather than play what they individually want to play. Sounds kinda dumb!

 

[V_Arnold]

Things like digital controls and predictable item drop patterns have become standard and I have yet to hear a convincing argument why this norm should be shaken.

Uhm, no game needs an argument or a permission to not follow some kind of "norm". Change is change, it needs no permission or reason to present itself.

Whether it is fun to play and it is fun to replay is the argument itself. It is an alternative. And a lot of people seem to like it.

 

[danmaku]

It's pretty clear why they chose analog controls: everyone has a 360 pad, with good analog sticks and an awful d-pad, very few have an arcade stick.

 

[StarCreator]

Uhm, no game needs an argument or a permission to not follow some kind of "norm". Change is change, it needs no permission or reason to present itself.

Whether it is fun to play and it is fun to replay is the argument itself. It is an alternative. And a lot of people seem to like it.

I actually suggest you read the post I just made here, but the point I'm trying to make is that genre standards generally come about from properly researched player feedback and diverging should be done with research to back it up, or you just end up alienating experienced players. It also renders skills gained through other games nearly useless - you don't see major control and design shakeups like this in the FPS genre, for example.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I'm so fucking bad at games like this but I find myself wanting to support these guys anyway.

 

[IISANDERII]

Looking forward to giving Sine More a try.

So what are the staples of this genre? I remember when I was a kid, it was all about Thunder Force III and another one whose name I can't remember.

 

[danmaku]

I actually suggest you read the post I just made here, but the point I'm trying to make is that genre standards generally come about from properly researched player feedback and diverging should be done with research to back it up, or you just end up alienating experienced players. It also renders skills gained through other games nearly useless - you don't see major control and design shakeups like this in the FPS genre, for example.

Funny you say that, because FPS games went through a lot of changes to be playable on consoles with dual analog pads (aim assist, slower speed, etc.). And PC FPS fans still hate that, but nontheless it helped those games reach a much larger audience.

I don't know how random powerups should benefit casual players, but obviously analog controls, a lot of emphasis on story and slow gameplay are there for a reason. I think Jamestown did a better job of mixing accessibility and hardcore gameplay, but even this attempt isn't bad. Besides, SM is more similar to R-Type or Gradius than your average danmaku, so why should it retain every convention of danmaku shooters?

 

[Ace Harding]

I played through the story and really enjoyed it. Yes, its different from Cave and other Japanese shmups, but I don't feel the need to compare it to anything. I look forward to trying all of the various configurations in arcade mode, and I really love the way the achievement system is set up. Might not be the best score attack game - the scoring system doesn't appear to be very deep - but I'll get a lot of hours out of this just trying to get all the achievements (and doubt I'll ever get them all).

If you've been playing lots of bullet hell shooters with digital controls this is going to be an adjustment. I've had trouble dodging bullets with the analog stick. But I also got much better just going through the story mode and went back and played a few of the earlier chapters and breezed through parts that gave me trouble, so you can get used to it.

The story is kind of crazy, but I appreciate the effort they put into it. The Hungarian voice sounds pretty cool in the game's setting.

 

[StarCreator]

Funny you say that, because FPS games went through a lot of changes to be playable on consoles with dual analog pads (aim assist, slower speed, etc.). And PC FPS fans still hate that, but nontheless it helped those games reach a much larger audience.

I don't know how random powerups should benefit casual players, but obviously analog controls, a lot of emphasis on story and slow gameplay are there for a reason. I think Jamestown did a better job of mixing accessibility and hardcore gameplay, but even this attempt isn't bad. Besides, SM is more similar to R-Type or Gradius than your average danmaku, so why should it retain every convention of danmaku shooters?

My point isn't that being different is bad, but that there seems to be little research backing the changes they have made. Changes to the FPS genre didn't happen overnight - it was a process of gradual evolution based on player feedback. If you're going to shake things up I feel there should be sufficient reason to do so.

 

[V_Arnold]

My point isn't that being different is bad, but that there seems to be little research backing the changes they have made. Changes to the FPS genre didn't happen overnight - it was a process of gradual evolution based on player feedback. If you're going to shake things up I feel there should be sufficient reason to do so.

I am sorry, but can I ask you how much time did you put into Sine Mora? Really not trying to antagonize you in any way, shape or form, but I really, really feel like that Sine Mora's gameplay system is its own package. It is coherent within its own rules and I do not feel like they just did some "changes" to a different game with no research, but rather they created a unique system for their own - with a LOT of research, obviously.

The end result definitely might not be something that one shmup fun might look forward to, if he is set on anticipating a total skill transfer and gameplay rule transfer from their favorites. But if you like the genre, and you are open minded at least to the point where you give at least 10+ hours to this game before throwing the stick down thanks to getting hit by a brick wall (literally) or power ups working differently than other games, then I believe that you will find this game rather entertaining - and something worth mastering in the long run.

 

[SOME-MIST]

I give all shmups a chance, but...it's a huge bummer that I can't use my stick effectively. I really dislike using a gamepad with shmups, but that won't discourage me from checking out the game - I'll just be going into it with an already negative attitude which is unfortunate.

 

[Tokubetsu]

Does the last stage of the crane boss have some kinda special weak point I'm missing or just a shit ton of health? I'm hitting the chimney thing but his health is not movie, I swear.

 

[see5harp]

You know I realize that many of the hardcore shooter fans probably dislike this game (probably valid reasons) but I really do think this is the first shmup this gen that doesn't suck in the areas aside from gameplay. Hell, this looks and sounds better than a lot of XBLA games. There were issues with spotting bullets and enemies from the background but I think I'll get $15 out of this game.

 

[Hawk SE]

Does the last stage of the crane boss have some kinda special weak point I'm missing or just a shit ton of health? I'm hitting the chimney thing but his health is not movie, I swear.

If there's a weak spot, I never found it. I just stayed above the range of being hit and just kept shooting. It takes damage s l o w l y.

 

[StarCreator]

I am sorry, but can I ask you how much time did you put into Sine Mora? Really not trying to antagonize you in any way, shape or form, but I really, really feel like that Sine Mora's gameplay system is its own package. It is coherent within its own rules and I do not feel like they just did some "changes" to a different game with no research, but rather they created a unique system for their own - with a LOT of research, obviously.

The end result definitely might not be something that one shmup fun might look forward to, if he is set on anticipating a total skill transfer and gameplay rule transfer from their favorites. But if you like the genre, and you are open minded at least to the point where you give at least 10+ hours to this game before throwing the stick down thanks to getting hit by a brick wall (literally) or power ups working differently than other games, then I believe that you will find this game rather entertaining - and something worth mastering in the long run.

I've yet to play the game at all - most of my objections are me trying to rationalize design decisions made by Reiker et al which seem to run contrary to what has already been established through years of evolution. I can't speak of what I think of the game personally yet, but I have to admit a lot of opinions expressed on Shmups Forum are from people I know personally and have nearly identical tastes to my own, so take what you will from that.

 

[EteRnal PAL]

Bought the game last night but have yet to play it. Still trying to finish up Mass Effect 3 first.

 

[magicalsoundshower]

Playing the demo right now, and god damn, this is pretty and the gameplay feels solid. But -- did there really have to be so many cutscenes, those people just won't shut up!

 

[eso76]

Hearing people toss the euroshmup term out like some sort of racial slur gives me chills up my spine!

i didn't mean it as that, but there's a very european approach to the genre here.

i had no idea others had called it an euroshmup before, and i had no idea it was actually made in europe.
Well, i guess that shows what awesome videogames connoisseur i am.

 

[Hawk SE]

Playing the demo right now, and god damn, this is pretty and the gameplay feels solid. But -- did there really have to be so many cutscenes, those people just won't shut up!

That's what Arcade and Score Attack modes are for.

 

[Out of Working Order]

Bought this today. I've never really dabbled in this genre before, but thought I'd give it a go after hearing good things about it.

Jumped straight in to the harder difficulty on story mode. Bring it!

The characters almost appear as darker, more gruff versions of Starfox's cast. And swearier.

 

[Tokubetsu]

Bought this today. I've never really dabbled in this genre before, but thought I'd give it a go after hearing good things about it.

Jumped straight in to the harder difficulty on story mode. Bring it!

The characters almost appear as darker, more gruff versions of Starfox's cast. And swearier.

I'm not one to really dig anthropomorphic characters in games, anime etc but I'm loving this games art/universe.

 

[V_Arnold]

A few more thoughts about the game:

Alternate Story Mode: Now THIS gave me the biggest nerdchills possible. The new monologues are really, really showing interesting sides of characters (and overall concepts) that I always wanted to see in games. Amazing, really.

Boss Training Mode: I really, really appreciate this - mostly because it sheds the light on a few things. For example, the purple plane is not ideal because of the spread of the bullets - that is, until you have 6+ powerups. I can totally see myself rocking this ship, because the train boss becomes VERY easy with the damage output this ship is capable of doing, and the missiles are concentrated enough so they all hit a tiny hitbox as well - very important here (And what I mean is enough damage to kill boss without using capsule or secondary attack on hard)). There seems to be a tradeoff with "concentrated damage at first" vs "spread out damage at first" with the different ships, and this will really be a good concept to explore in score attack and arcade mode.

Shield powerup is IMBA!: I do not necessary mean it a bad way, but really. If you have a shield, make sure you do not get hit, because it can turn one of your weak bossfights into an easy fight simply because you have 6-7 seconds of literal invulnerability without losing the rank AND the score multiplier. This is the best powerup also for surviving the quite tiresome cave area with all the flames. I just get hit, then breeze through the whole section in 5 seconds, done. Multiplier kept, score high, ready to rock

...also, some of the complaints are really starting to get old in that Shmup forum, as I keep returning there to see what the hardcore thinks. 2+ days should be more than enough to already memorize every boss attack pattern, if not down to the level of each bullets, but definitely so you will not get rammed into, really. If I can do it, the pros can definitely do it. And arcade mode seems to be the better place to be anyway, where the powerups are kept between levels, so random or not random is a non-issue after the second half of stage 1 or at worst, the first half of stage 2, anyway.