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[Mumei]

Thanks to royalan for making the banner
From the left: Joan Sutherland, Freddie Mercury, Beyoncé Knowles, Jackie Wilson, Shirley Bassey, Mariah Carey, Placido Domingo, and Whitney Houston

I have had several users suggest I make this topic over the last year, and despite my interest I have been resisting. But I decided to give it a try now. I have had fun discussions about vocals in one-off topics about singing or in Pop-GAF, but Pop-GAF scares people away and the other topics often get lost in a sea of people simply dropping links and running without looking back.

I find the human voice endlessly fascinating. You can analogize it to a musical instrument - a stringed instrument parallels certain elements well. The strings are analogous to the vocal folds, which vibrate at specific frequencies when hitting certain notes and whose vibrations are caused by air striking them, in the same way that the strings are made to vibrate with a bow being pulled across them; the vocal tract, or the space in the throat above the vocal folds, the pharynx, and the mouth is analogous to the hollow body of the stringed instrument and serves as the primary resonator for the voice, though it does not function as a sounding board.

Of course, the analogy is imperfect because folds are not actually strings. For instance, they change pitch by changing their tension, whereas strings don't alter tension while they are being played, which is more similar to the function of the lips of a trumpet player - but even then the way that tension is modified is much more complicated. In actuality the voice is, essentially, a wind instrument where the players' breath serves as the actuator, the folds serve as the vibrator, and the vocal tract serves as the resonator.

But to continue the prior analogy, it is interesting to note that just as larger stringed instruments are associated with a deeper instrument, so too are larger vocal folds associated with deeper vocal types, which is why male voices (17.5 - 25 mm folds) are deeper than female voices (12.5 - 17.5 mm); the smaller chords are able to vibrate more quickly. This means that men's voices are about an octave deeper than women's, though in popular music both men and women tend do most of their singing within the same range. Ultimately, when properly combined, those tiny vocal folds and and the small resonating chamber can be used to allow a human voice to project itself over even a large orchestra in some cases.

Rules

Standard rules will apply, but I will also be enforcing a rule that you cannot simply post a link without comment (or something so superficial as "I liked this!"). You need to include something to discuss. What should we be listening for? What parts do you like? Why do you like those parts? I'm not asking for a technical critique of the performance; just something to facilitate discussion. Posts which fail to follow this rule will be deleted.

I am envisioning this topic as a place to discuss technical aspects of singing, to share music by vocalists that people think have either artistic or technical merits (or flaws they want to discuss!), to talk about individual singers, vocal types, the voice and how it pertains to popular music, for questions, and even for users who sing themselves to link to examples of their own singing. For this last thing, we would need to be sure that people doing this do not turn their posts into advertisements for a product they are selling (e.g. a CD) so as not to run afoul of the ToS' rules but hopefully that particular needle can be threaded.

Educational Videos

I know that when I have had these discussions in the past, terms or ideas which some people might not be familiar with will crop up. I'm still learning and reading myself, so I'm going to include a few videos I have found educational:

How to Belt a High Note Properly - Vocal Placement
Vocal Tips - The Larynx Position While Singing
What Are Flat Notes And Sharp Notes In Singing? (Pitch Issues)
What is Resonance and How is it Achieved (Singing) (Part 2)

These aren't necessarily useful pedagogically (i.e. a lot of these aren't under conscious control and need to be learned through proper coordination and muscle memory and knowing some of the physiological processes isn't necessarily helpful to learning), but they are very interesting.

I know that there are other terms that some people don't know will probably crop up; they are too numerous to list here but this Wikipedia page on tessitura also has other terms that will probably crop up. If you have questions about something that is being discussed, feel free to ask.

 

[Leona Lewis]

A few videos to make you miss the old guard of pop:

Whitney Houston - The Voice

The section on her masterful volume control (beginning at the two-minute mark) is particularly jaw-dropping. But really, the whole thing is worth watching and, of course, listening to.

Mariah Carey - The Imperial Songbird

The section on her rhythmic phrasing (13-minute mark) really showcases the versatility of Mariah's voice and the superb level of artistry present in what would, under the charge of lesser artists, become throwaway verses or runs.

Great OT, Mumei!

 

[MIMIC]

Cool thread! Will definitely check it out (and add to it later).

 

[krypt0nian]

You finally did it! Subbed!

 

[Jotamide]

Aaaaaaand subbed.

 

[Arksy]

Some preliminary questions for the uninitiated.

1. To what extent can singing be learned or trained. Is being a decent vocalist something unique or special to a select few individuals or is singing something that anyone could become proficient at?

2. Is voice something you’re able to mould and change? For example if you want to have a higher or lower voice, or a voice that’s drastically different. I ask because I saw these very interesting videos of MTF transgendered people who did an incredible job of turning their male voice into a female voice and the transition shocked me.

 

[Mumei]

A few videos to make you miss the old guard of pop:

Whitney Houston - The Voice

The section on her masterful volume control (beginning at the two-minute mark) is particularly jaw-dropping. But really, the whole thing is worth watching and, of course, listening to.

Mariah Carey - The Imperial Songbird

The section on her rhythmic phrasing (13-minute mark) really showcases the versatility of Mariah's voice and the superb level of artistry present in what would, under the charge of lesser artists, become throwaway verses or runs.

Great OT, Mumei!

Oh, yes. Two fantastic videos. BZBlaner is amazing and I cannot wait for his (her? Who knows) forthcoming video for Aretha.

And actually, the same guy who did several of the videos in the OP recently did a new video for SoHyang, a South Korean Christian singer. To be honest, after so many videos of Filipino karaoke flops and screamers (Regine, Sarah, Charice, et al), this was quite refreshing. She seems fantastic - her pianissimo in full voice on D5 was fantastic, and her endurance in the fifth octave from 1:34 to 3:05 actually might actually top Mariah's If It's Over performance at the Grammy's for me. SoHyang's has a higher tessitura, but I found Mariah's F#5s slightly more impressive and I think it seems like Mariah has a slightly more resonant sound, and accurate phrasing and clear diction on those notes while maintaining tone, clarity, and resonance is really, really hard. I don't know. SoHyang clearly has more stamina at singing at loud volumes for extended periods, and though that's not really surprising since Mariah is a coloratura and they tire more easily singing forte, it is still very impressive nonetheless.

You finally did it! Subbed!

You were the first one to suggest it!

 

[Leona Lewis]

Oh, yes. Two fantastic videos. BZBlaner is amazing and I cannot wait for his (her? Who knows) forthcoming video for Aretha.

And actually, the same guy who did several of the videos in the OP recently did a new video for SoHyang, a South Korean Christian singer. To be honest, after so many videos of Filipino karaoke flops and screamers (Regine, Sarah, Charice, et al), this was quite refreshing. She seems fantastic - her pianissimo in full voice on D5 was fantastic, and her endurance in the fifth octave from 1:34 to 3:05 actually might actually top Mariah's If It's Over performance at the Grammy's for me. SoHyang's has a higher tessitura, but I found Mariah's F#5s slightly more impressive and I think it seems like Mariah has a slightly more resonant sound, and accurate phrasing and clear diction on those notes while maintaining tone, clarity, and resonance is really, really hard. I don't know. SoHyang clearly has more stamina at singing at loud volumes for extended periods, and though that's not really surprising since Mariah is a coloratura and they tire more easily singing forte, it is still very impressive nonetheless.

Her head voice diminuendo is absolutely incredible, and her ability to effortlessly change the "heaviness" of her voice singing the same notes is pretty inhuman (11:06 is INSANE)

Can't believe I've never even heard of her. She has an almost machine-like control of her voice.

This song continues to be the bane of all wannabes' existence, though. She sounded like a cat in heat, compared to Mariah's casual and unaffected delivery.

 

[Mumei]

Some preliminary questions for the uninitiated.

1. To what extent can singing be learned or trained. Is being a decent vocalist something unique or special to a select few individuals or is singing something that anyone could become proficient at?

2. Is voice something you’re able to mould and change? For example if you want to have a higher or lower voice, or a voice that’s drastically different. I ask because I saw these very interesting videos of MTF transgendered people who did an incredible job of turning their male voice into a female voice and the transition shocked me.

1. I read a book recently by Cornelius Reid called Bel Canto: Principles and Practices which essentially argues that as long as the student is capable of differentiating between the tones (and isn't truly tone deaf; most people are not naturally tone deaf, but just don't have enough practice listening), that the only issue is talent and willingness to work at it. I think that physiologically there's probably nothing stopping anyone from becoming a passable vocalist (e.g. I think that your vocal chords, vocal passage, pharynx, etc.) are perfectly capable of producing pure vowels and an even tone, and an even scale from top to bottom - the question is whether you possess a) the talent to do that, b) the willingness to work it. Of course, he also gives an example in the book of a woman named Lilli Lehman who explains at length about how she sings the way she does, and he points out:

There is not the slightest doubt but that all this detail which, incidentally, runs on through almost three hundred pages of her book had a very real meaning to Madame Lehman. It can, and must, however, be questioned as a sound procedure for basic training. In the first place, Madame Lehman never learned to sing by this method as her own voice was from earliest childhood quite phenomenal. She herself tells how, as little children, she and her sister Marie could hit the fourth line C a hundred times in succession and trill on it for a long time, and that they used to sing the aria of the Queen of the Night from Mozart's The Magic Flute, a feat few singers in history have been able to accomplish as adults. Madame Lehman's vocal co-ordination, therefore, was natural rather than acquired and, of course, her entire sensitivity as bound together by the proper 'feel' of the mechanical adjustments involved​

So yes, there certainly are singers who are "gifted" in that they just seem to "naturally" know what to do, while others require a lot more training to get to that point.

I don't think I'd ever be capable of singing, though.

2. I think that the MTF examples are a rather special case and aren't directly applicable to the issue of singing. As I understand it, that is a matter of speaking in falsetto and basically retraining the voice to speak at a higher pitch than would be "normal" (though you'd have to ask TransGAF for that, so don't take that as gospel). I know that there are some cases of singers training themselves by industry to reach into a higher fach. For instance, Maria Callas is thought by some to have been an essentially mezzo-soprano voice who by training and industriousness extended her range up to the soprano fach; references are made to her extremely dark tessitura and the weight of her voice. She herself mentioned that her vocal teacher had recognized that she had an extremely heavy voice and had always trained her to keep her voice on the lighter side which contributed to her facility with coloratura and fioratura. I seem to remember reading something about Caruso essentially being a baritonal voice at its core.

But generally speaking, while a lyric soprano might become a spinto soprano or a spinto tenor might become a heldentenor or a baritone as a singer ages (since voices tend to deepen with age) you usually won't see a baritone become a lyric tenor or a coloratura soprano become a dramatic soprano.

Her head voice diminuendo is absolutely incredible, and her ability to effortlessly change the "heaviness" of her voice singing the same notes is pretty inhuman (11:06 is INSANE)

Can't believe I've never even heard of her. She has an almost machine-like control of her voice.

This song continues to be the bane of all wannabes' existence, though. She sounded like a cat in heat, compared to Mariah's casual and unaffected delivery.

I had heard of her (and seen her in a couple clips) but never really seen her featured in anything like "hey let's look at these two singers belting and decide who is better" or whatever. Though now that I've looked, apparently WestVoice had a vocal range video this whole time that I'd never looked at. Oops.

On the subject of tone / heaviness of the voice, have you ever listened to the Grammy and SNL performances of If It's Over back to back? It's really interesting to hear the difference. She adds more chest tone on the SNL performance on the upper belts, and while it doesn't have quite the same "ping" to them, I think it works better with the brass instruments.

 

[Paddington Bear]

Subbed

 

[Cyan]

Subscribed!

<3

 

[3phemeral]

Fantastic thread, Mumei

I'm always interested in learning the mechanics behind the singing. I'm glad you posted those videos from BZBlaner, too.

As for SoHyang, I've always seen her mentioned in a few of these videos, but I've never really gotten used to her tone. That vocal showcase of hers, especially the versatility section, really illustrated how much I wasn't aware she was capable of. Though, while I can appreciate her gift to some degree, I really can't get into her tone, personally.

LL's video of her singing Emotions and this video of her singing When You Believe with Charice are notable examples, though I suppose it's unfair to assess her capability via another singer's song, especially one not in your own language.

One thing that's interested me, though, is how does one produce dramatic, and seemingly harsh, gritty, or even gravelly textures vocally? And I don't mean in the forced, nodule-producing way. Like Beyonce, for instance, frequently makes use of this "technique" in the following examples:

Listen
Suga Mama
I'd Rather Go Blind

I would think that sort of sound production would be counter-intuitive to healthy singing (and it may very well be), but I've read that there are actual techniques in producing this sound. I feel as though it would be more difficult the higher you belt considering how much thinner your vocal cords have to be for upper-register singing.

 

[Mumei]

Fantastic thread, Mumei

I'm always interested in learning the mechanics behind the singing. I'm glad you posted those videos from BZBlaner, too.

As for SoHyang, I've always seen her mentioned in a few of these videos, but I've never really gotten used to her tone. That vocal showcase of hers, especially the versatility section, really illustrated how much I wasn't aware she was capable of. Though, while I can appreciate her gift to some degree, I really can't get into her tone, personally.

LL's video of her singing Emotions and this video of her singing When You Believe with Charice are notable examples, though I suppose it's unfair to assess her capability via another singer's song, especially one not in your own language.

One thing that's interested me, though, is how does one produce dramatic, and seemingly harsh, gritty, or even gravelly textures vocally? And I don't mean in the forced, nodule-producing way. Like Beyonce, for instance, frequently makes use of this "technique" in the following examples:

Listen
Suga Mama
I'd Rather Go Blind

I would think that sort of sound production would be counter-intuitive to healthy singing (and it may very well be), but I've read that there are actual techniques in producing this sound. I feel as though it would be more difficult the higher you belt considering how much thinner your vocal cords have to be for upper-register singing.

Yes, Beyonce does that sort of gravelly or raspy vocal a lot. Even singers who tend to sing more cleanly like Mariah or Whitney also make use of it at times. And I don't think that a growl is inherently unhealthy (or that you need to be straining to produce it); I think it is just an effect that can be added onto an otherwise healthy production. I know royalan was working on his growl so maybe he can explain how it is produced?

And speaking of roy, let me make him feel at home when he gets here by sharing this video that showed up on my subscription feed tonight that compares intentional raspy belting with a strained sound.

 

[Sadsic]

i can mildly sing; i was in choir throughout most of school and i performed once in front of 120,000 people which was cool

this is what i sound like

http://sadsic.bandcamp.com/track/emily

 

[ComputerMKII]

I've always liked the intros to Ghost in the Shell and Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2, and I've finally found what made them so special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkIoPrtQjqA&t=0m58s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRh0-Uo88wk

Kenji Kawai originally wanted to use Bulgarian folk singers, but was unable to find any, so he relied on the Japanese folk song choir he used earlier in the Ranma 1/2 anime. The song uses an ancient form of the Japanese language mixed with Bulgarian harmony and traditional Japanese notes.

Source: Wikipedia

So I googled "Bulgarian choir" and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3piS-mScI

 

[Vazra]

Jessie J Live Vocal Range

I believe she has talent. She has a few flats live and can oversing constantly. But she has a pretty damn good range. Only if she polishes more she can be something amazing.

Lianne La Havas Lost & Found

I just think the voice and the way she uses her voice on the song its beautiful. I like how you can feel her showing some feeling into it. Not a lot of artist these years have shown some sort of emotion into the song and I feel she does gives me that thing that is lacking.

 

[3phemeral]

Yes, Beyonce does that sort of gravelly or raspy vocal a lot. Even singers who tend to sing more cleanly like Mariah or Whitney also make use of it at times. And I don't think that a growl is inherently unhealthy (or that you need to be straining to produce it); I think it is just an effect that can be added onto an otherwise healthy production. I know royalan was working on his growl so maybe he can explain how it is produced?

And speaking of roy, let me make him feel at home when he gets here by sharing this video that showed up on my subscription feed tonight that compares intentional raspy belting with a strained sound.

Which is why I find it fascinating if you can produce it in a healthy way. Thinking about it, I find it counterintuitive specifically because it requires grinding of the vocal cords which, although they vibrate at incredible speeds to produce sound already, require the singer to both coordinate the proper note as well as the affectation.

I know Mariah and Whitney also used it, but it seemed in sparing amounts comparative to how frequent Beyonce employs it. Let's forget that Mariah ever did this, though.

Jessie J Live Vocal Range

I believe she has talent. She has a few flats live and can oversing constantly. But she has a pretty damn good range. Only if she polishes more she can be something amazing.

I have a friend who sings Opera that finds her shouty and harsh, but I love some of Jesse J's stuff, like:

Mama Knows Best
Who You Are

She does oversing, of course, but I find that part of her appeal to some extent. There are some stylistic things she does I find off-putting, but it's mostly her style of music that I'm really not into, aside from the aforementioned.

 

[Vazra]

Which is why I find it fascinating if you can produce it in a healthy way. Thinking about it, I find it counterintuitive specifically because it requires grinding of the vocal cords which, although they vibrate at incredible speeds to produce sound already, require the singer to both coordinate the proper note as well as the affectation.

I know Mariah and Whitney also used it, but it seemed in sparing amounts comparative to how frequent Beyonce employs it. Let's forget that Mariah ever did this, though.



I have a friend who sings Opera that finds her shouty and harsh, but I love some of Jesse J's stuff, like:

Momma Knows Best
Who You Are

She does oversing, of course, but I find that part of her appeal to some extent. There are some stylistic things she does I find off-putting, but it's mostly her style of music that I'm really not into, aside from the aforementioned.

The main problem with Jessie is that her album gives me the I don't have an identity problem. Those 2 songs you posted there show her strengths easily. She has a big voice but she needs to control herself at times.

Jessie J- Big White Room Shows she can do soft songs and I think the melisma its good but there are times she tries to over do it on the point it just doesnt do her any good. Here for most of the part doesnt over sings it which is a performance I like.


EDIT:

Let me add Kimbra to the conversation.
Kimbra- Close To You Here a cover of the famous song made by Cardigans.

Kimbra - Cameo Lover One of her original songs. I find her voice simply unique.


She might not be one of the biggest singers but she has some interesting things with her voice her highs are pretty good and not messy and overall gives somethinga bit fresh combined with the music she is working with.

 

[Leona Lewis]

Yes, Beyonce does that sort of gravelly or raspy vocal a lot. Even singers who tend to sing more cleanly like Mariah or Whitney also make use of it at times. And I don't think that a growl is inherently unhealthy (or that you need to be straining to produce it); I think it is just an effect that can be added onto an otherwise healthy production. I know royalan was working on his growl so maybe he can explain how it is produced?

And speaking of roy, let me make him feel at home when he gets here by sharing this video that showed up on my subscription feed tonight that compares intentional raspy belting with a strained sound.

Haley's B4 in this video was gorgeous.

The only thing I don't like about her belts is her utter lack of vibrato.

 

[3phemeral]

The main problem with Jessie is that her album gives me the I don't have an identity problem. Those 2 songs you posted there show her strengths easily. She has a big voice but she needs to control herself at times.

Jessie J- Big White Room Shows she can do soft songs and I think the melisma its good but there are times she tries to over do it on the point it just doesnt do her any good. Here for most of the part doesnt over sings it which is a performance I like.

I just noticed your edit and that song you posted from Lianne is gorgeous.

Speaking of other singers, while I don't know their whole catalog, the following songs caught my ear that I never fail to include in any of my vocal playlists:

Yma Sumac - Chuncho
Lara Fabien - Je Suis Malade

And as much as Mumei despises her tone:

Rachell Ferrell - My Funny Valentine, and for more adventurous types: Autumn Leaves.

 

[Cyan]

i can mildly sing; i was in choir throughout most of school and i performed once in front of 120,000 people which was cool

this is what i sound like

http://sadsic.bandcamp.com/track/emily

I was a baritone back in high school. The choir I was in was pretty damn good... though I don't think I contributed all that much to its quality.

I don't have a whole lot of range, though, and basically no falsetto ability whatsoever. I always sing along to music, but usually have to drop an octave to do it. :/

 

[3phemeral]

i can mildly sing; i was in choir throughout most of school and i performed once in front of 120,000 people which was cool

this is what i sound like

http://sadsic.bandcamp.com/track/emily

It's an odd track but I like it. Has a certain Bjorkish quality to it.

 

[Vazra]

Amy Lee This is one of my favorites. Her problems usually were about breathing but the concert I went to she didnt had breathing issues so it seems she has learned to control things better.

 

[royalan]

'BOUT TIME!!!!

I think this will be a very good thread. I've been seeing a lot of vocalist discussion popping up around GAF lately, so I'm glad Mumei finally decided to make this OT.

One tradition I would like bring over from PopGAF is State Your Faves. I will proceed to list some of my favorite vocalist(s) from the various genres of music that I listen to, with a brief description of why they tantalize or inspire me so.

Contemporary Pop

Christina Aguilera

Why? She gets a lot of

Spoiler

deserved

flack for the noticeable gaps in her technical training (or lack thereof) and her overindulgence in melisma and perceived showboating, and she has let her voice go in recent years; but, at her best, Christina exemplified a raw vocal fierceness and natural ability that was really inspiring to a young me growing up during the Pop Explosion of the early 2000s. She also has a vastly underrated sense of musicality, versatility, and sheer nerve that has allowed her to, over the years, record one of the most diverse catalogs in modern Pop by a female who isn't named Mariah Carey. From Blues, to Bubblegum, to Traditional Pop Balladry, to Broadway, to Jazz, to Electronica, to sultry R&B, her catalog can't be touched by any of her peers.

Listen to: Nasty Naughty Boy

Jazz

Billie Holiday

Why? Possessing one of the tiniest voices of the women who would personify the Jazz movement of her era, Billie Holiday would nevertheless rule them all with the magnitude of her sheer interpretive ability alone. Could pack more emotion into a single vocal line than most singers could pack into entire albums.

Listen to: Sophisticated Lady, Lady Sings the Blues, Strange Fruit

Julie London

Why? I love women with deep, sultry singing voices, and Julie London is the queen of them all. Smoky, sexual, filled with barely restrained emotion. Femme Fatale. When your faves think they're being inspired by Marilyn Monroe, they're really being inspired by her (I'm looking at you, Lana Del Rey).

Listen to: Cry Me a River, I Wanna Be Around, Misty

Folk/Rock/LAWD I'm not quite sure

Kate Bush

Kate just has one of those unique and Iconic tones (not to mention an iconic catalog of music). Very emotionally driven vocals - effortlessly goes from deep and smoky to shrill and piercing. It's hard for me to place her sound and relevance in my life at times, but whenever I'm working on my voice and wanting to cultivate a unique style all my own I always think of Kate. Her influence is immeasurable - everyone from Tori Amos to Outkast has named her as an inspiration to their craft. This Woman's Work is the first song that actually made me tear up listening to it.

Listen To: Cloudbursting, This Woman's Work, Wuthering Heights, Running Up That Hill


I'm sure I have other fave's, but that's it for now. Maybe I'll actually list some men at some point. Part II coming soon.

 

[Artemisia]

Rihanna slays these nobodies with her ethereal vocal tone.

bye

Spoiler

is this what you and roy were suspiciously PMing about

 

[FelixOrion]

Mumei, are we allow to also offer discussion/tips/etc on harsh or unclean singing as well?

 

[royalan]

Mumei, are we allow to also offer discussion/tips/etc on harsh or unclean singing as well?

I believe so.

 

[botty]

Roy's banner is flawless *.*

 

[Phonomezer]

Julie London is fierce.

 

[FelixOrion]

I believe so.

I assumed we could, but the thread seemed very clean-singing-focused and I didn't want to start dropping that stuff if it didn't belong.

 

[royalan]

I assumed we could, but the thread seemed very clean-singing-focused and I didn't want to start dropping that stuff if it didn't belong.

I'm sure Mumei is open to any type of post that facilitates on-topic discussion. That includes criticism of vocalists. I can speak on this from personal experiences, as he is full of criticism of some of my faves...one in particular.

Go ahead an post what you've been wanting to post.

 

[iavi]

Oh, yes. Two fantastic videos. BZBlaner is amazing and I cannot wait for his (her? Who knows) forthcoming video for Aretha.

And actually, the same guy who did several of the videos in the OP recently did a new video for SoHyang, a South Korean Christian singer. To be honest, after so many videos of Filipino karaoke flops and screamers (Regine, Sarah, Charice, et al), this was quite refreshing. She seems fantastic - her pianissimo in full voice on D5 was fantastic, and her endurance in the fifth octave from 1:34 to 3:05 actually might actually top Mariah's If It's Over performance at the Grammy's for me. SoHyang's has a higher tessitura, but I found Mariah's F#5s slightly more impressive and I think it seems like Mariah has a slightly more resonant sound, and accurate phrasing and clear diction on those notes while maintaining tone, clarity, and resonance is really, really hard. I don't know. SoHyang clearly has more stamina at singing at loud volumes for extended periods, and though that's not really surprising since Mariah is a coloratura and they tire more easily singing forte, it is still very impressive nonetheless.



You were the first one to suggest it!

Holy fuck. What. I cant get over it. She's incredible. So glad you posted this. I've had 'fate' on repeat for what feels like way too little time.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

Beautiful work. Let me post my favorite performances from my favorite vocalist. That head voice! *.*

Just kidding. Seriously though, here are my favorite Kelly Clarkson 'moments':
Up to the Mountain
I Know You Won't
Miss Independent
Me & Mrs. Jones
Already Gone

And she has a couple of bonus discs that accompany her studio albums called the Smoakstack Sessions. They capture her voice in all its live glory. Some of my favorites:
Walking After Midnight
Your Cheatin' Heart
Lies

I didn't mean to come here just to link dump, but I'm not well-versed in technical vocal lingo like you stans. Subscribing to get educated, though~

 

[FelixOrion]

I'm sure Mumei is open to any type of post that facilitates on-topic discussion. That includes criticism of vocalists. I can speak on this from personal experiences, as he is full of criticism of some of my faves...one in particular.

Go ahead an post what you've been wanting to post.

Then away we go!

Singing & Vocalism - Harsh Vocals Edition

I hope you all don't mind if I drop some of my favorite harsh vocalists and why I like them. I can also offer up counter-examples of vocalist that I think are weak, if that interests anyone.

Phil Bozeman (Whitechapel)

Whitechapel - "Possession"
Whitechapel - "The Darkest Day of Man" (Very vicious/horrific animated music video, watch at your own risk)

Phil has several key aspects to his voice that make him a powerhouse to my ears. He's got a very wide range and control of his voice, an incredibly vicious timbre to his voice, and an ability to speed through lyrics that would put a lot of rappers to shame. One thing he has tempered on later albums with Whitechapel is his enunciation, which has dramatically improved, but he has done so without lessening the violence of his voice.

Spencer Sotelo (Periphery, ex-Corelia)

Periphery - "Icarus Lives!"
Periphery - "Make Total Destroy"
Periphery - "Jetpacks Was Yes!"

Spencer as a harsh vocalist is somewhat of a mediocre vocalist, but he possesses the ability to switch from a decent enough harsh voice to a great clean voice with an incredible pitch range. Speaking specifically from a harsh perspective, he tends to get entrenched in his mid-harsh range and attempt to drop lower sound corny and weak. But I admire his ability to mix his two talents and switch between them well.

Ryan Devlin (Corelia)

Corelia - "The Sound of Glaciers Moving [Live]"
Corelia - "Red Sky Harbor"

Spencer Sotelo's replacement in Corelia and fits largely to the same style and gifts as him, but Ryan pulls them off much more spectacularly. His harsh vocals carry much more grit and weight and range than Sotelo's ever have and his clean vocals, though slight less in range, is lightyears ahead in expression.

Jimmy Ryan (Trenches, ex-Haste the Day)

Trenches - "Calling"
Trenches - "Call it Correct"

A very limited harsh vocal range, but where Jimmy rests, he demolishes. Very vicious and emotion filled, and topped to the brim with grit, character, and individuality. Perfectly suited to his sludge metal band and almost out of place in his old metalcore band.

Kris McCaddon (ex-The Famine, ex-Demon Hunter, ex-Embodiment)

(second from left)

The Famine - "Consume, Devour, Repeat"
The Famine - "The South Will Rise"

Powerful, animalistic, ripping, painfully viscous, and soaked in blood. Range isn't massive, but like Jimmy, makes up in utter power behind his vocal timbre.

Greg Parrish (Nuclear Rabbit)

Nuclear Rabbit - "Alone with my Clone"
Nuclear Rabbit - "My Hideous Claw"
Nuclear Rabbit - "Truth's Ugly Head"

And lastly we have Greg Parrish, my out-of-left-field pick. His wacky, often humoerous voice fits his avant-garde metal band to a T. While not the greatest vocalist technically (though very good in both sides), his ability to mix his harsh vocals and clean singing and the subsequently make character voices with them, adds leaps and bounds to their songs.

 

[royalan]

And speaking of roy, let me make him feel at home when he gets here by sharing this video that showed up on my subscription feed tonight that compares intentional raspy belting with a strained sound.

I'm sorry, but I feel you guys think way too highly of Haley. I love her growling, but her technique goes to shit even sooner in the upper register than Xtina's did at her age (judging by that video. I don't know what the comments are hearing. In a lot of those videos the cheap cameras recording Haley were making her sound a lot louder than she really was). And, listening to her album, she hasn't exhibited the ability to interpret a song on even the same PLANE as Xtina. Plus, more offensively, she's got an annoying pipsqueak tone. Haley's still got a lot of growing up to do.

 

[Leona Lewis]

I'm sorry, but I feel you guys think way too highly of Haley. I love her growling, but her technique goes to shit even sooner in the upper register than Xtina's did at her age (judging by that video. I don't know what the comments are hearing. In a lot of those videos the cheap cameras recording Haley were making her sound a lot louder than she really was). And, listening to her album, she hasn't exhibited the ability to interpret a song on even the same PLANE as Xtina. Haley's still got a lot of growing up to do.

And she has no concept of vibrato.

 

[speedpop]

I've always liked the intros to Ghost in the Shell and Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2, and I've finally found what made them so special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkIoPrtQjqA&t=0m58s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRh0-Uo88wk



So I googled "Bulgarian choir" and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v3piS-mScI

Quite a few Japanese composers gravitate towards Bulgarian choirs for some reason. Yasunori Mitsuda used them (the same group that you linked with) to devastating effect in The Beginning and the End, and Yoko Kanno used another Bulgarian choir group with the song Atomic Bird.

 

[royalan]

Then away we go!

Singing & Vocalism - Harsh Vocals Edition

I hope you all don't mind if I drop some of my favorite harsh vocalists and why I like them. I can also offer up counter-examples of vocalist that I think are weak, if that interests anyone.

Phil Bozeman (Whitechapel)

Whitechapel - "Possession"
Whitechapel - "The Darkest Day of Man" (Very vicious/horrific animated music video, watch at your own risk)

Phil has several key aspects to his voice that make him a powerhouse to my ears. He's got a very wide range and control of his voice, an incredibly vicious timbre to his voice, and an ability to speed through lyrics that would put a lot of rappers to shame. One thing he has tempered on later albums with Whitechapel is his enunciation, which has dramatically improved, but he has done so without lessening the violence of his voice.

Spencer Sotelo (Periphery, ex-Corelia)

Periphery - "Icarus Lives!"
Periphery - "Make Total Destroy"
Periphery - "Jetpacks Was Yes!"

Spencer as a harsh vocalist is somewhat of a mediocre vocalist, but he possesses the ability to switch from a decent enough harsh voice to a great clean voice with an incredible pitch range. Speaking specifically from a harsh perspective, he tends to get entrenched in his mid-harsh range and attempt to drop lower sound corny and weak. But I admire his ability to mix his two talents and switch between them well.

Ryan Devlin (Corelia)

Corelia - "The Sound of Glaciers Moving [Live]"
Corelia - "Red Sky Harbor"

Spencer Sotelo's replacement in Corelia and fits largely to the same style and gifts as him, but Ryan pulls them off much more spectacularly. His harsh vocals carry much more grit and weight and range than Sotelo's ever have and his clean vocals, though slight less in range, is lightyears ahead in expression.

Jimmy Ryan (Trenches, ex-Haste the Day)

Trenches - "Calling"
Trenches - "Call it Correct"

A very limited harsh vocal range, but where Jimmy rests, he demolishes. Very vicious and emotion filled, and topped to the brim with grit, character, and individuality. Perfectly suited to his sludge metal band and almost out of place in his old metalcore band.

Kris McCaddon (ex-The Famine, ex-Demon Hunter, ex-Embodiment)

(second from left)

The Famine - "Consume, Devour, Repeat"
The Famine - "The South Will Rise"

Powerful, animalistic, ripping, painfully viscous, and soaked in blood. Range isn't massive, but like Jimmy, makes up in utter power behind his vocal timbre.

Greg Parrish (Nuclear Rabbit)

Nuclear Rabbit - "Alone with my Clone"
Nuclear Rabbit - "My Hideous Claw"
Nuclear Rabbit - "Truth's Ugly Head"

And lastly we have Greg Parrish, my out-of-left-field pick. His wacky, often humoerous voice fits his avant-garde metal band to a T. While not the greatest vocalist technically (though very good in both sides), his ability to mix his harsh vocals and clean singing and the subsequently make character voices with them, adds leaps and bounds to their songs.

I've always had a question about this type of singing.

How long can men sing like this before their voices give out completely? It seems so painful.

Any older men singing this way? Documentation on the style? I'm fascinated...

 

[SonofdonCD]

Cool topic! Definitely gonna subscribe.

I am a singer myself. While I haven't had a voice lesson in a number of years, and never got deep into vocal pedogogy, I could certainly offer any insight into what it takes to be a performer in the real world, if anyone has any interest in that.

I sing it all, pretty much. From early music through modern classical ; all popular music styles (with exception for any hardcore rock styles), leaning a lot on Soul/R&B; to jazz and bossa nova/samba/Latin jazz and the like. I like a lot of stuff, and almost never turn down an opportunity to perform.

What I personally gravitate to when it comes to singers are beauty in tone (so no screamers, sorry), good technique, and versatility, both in sheer ability and in choosing their repertoire. For the most part, that narrows down the genres of music that I personally follow to those that value those qualities more than most, I feel: Soul (and some Pop), Jazz and Classical

But I fear I am turning into a stuck-up, old-fogey much too early in my life. I don't listen to the radio at all. I can barely watch the Grammy's cause I don't know the artists. Popular music is worse now than at any point that I can remember. While that is another topic unto itself, the current crop of voices is one reason for this decline, I feel.

There are so few standout voices nowadays. Every female voice seems to be some form of the singer/songwriter light and airy voice. Every male voice is freakishly high-pitched with not much uniqueness in the timbre or interpretation (I came to that conclusion when making a list is songs to sing in a new cover band I joined; I was having a real hard time finding current songs to cover that are in a more comfortable part of my range; men just don't sound like men anymore, I guess!). There are very few powerhouse singers, especially in comparison to decades past.

But let me get off my high horse. Some of my favorite singers, in no particular order:

Jazz
"Sassy" herself, Sarah Vaughan
Just her lush, beautiful tone, her very controlled vibrato, and her great musicality puts her over other jazz greats like Billie and Ella. She could do most anything with her voice.

Soul/R&B
Stevie Wonder
I always kid that if it were possible to switch out our voices like how a guitarist has all these different pedals that allow them to change the sound of their instrument, I would go to the music store and ask for the Stevie Wonder model. His voice is so amazing. He has the flexibility to be pure or gravelly or boisterous or whatever enters his mind. And he is still doing it 50-something years after he debuted. He doesn't even change the keys of his songs, like just about every older singer has to do. His voice is in such excellent shape.

I'll leave it at that for now, as I'm on my tablet and writing this long was painful enough!

 

[Mumei]

fAaah multiple posts to respond to. I will have to list my faves later, Roy.

Jessie J Live Vocal Range

I believe she has talent. She has a few flats live and can oversing constantly. But she has a pretty damn good range. Only if she polishes more she can be something amazing.

Lianne La Havas Lost & Found

Setting aside her vocal affectations for a moment (where, at least from what little I've heard, she tends to fall off pitch more when she goes for coloratura, though I don't think it is like... unsalvageably bad - she just tends to go flat, as you mentioned), I do think she has potential. I thought that her G#5/A5 seemed a bit too head-y for my taste (for a good comparison, check out the G#5 from SoHyang for the sort of balance I prefer for sustained mix).

I don't feel like she has big glaring problems in her belting; it's more like... I'd like to hear more resonance on her mid-belts, I'd like to hear more tonal consistency on her upper belts and for her to get more "ping" on them, I'd like her to get just a touch more chest tone on her G#5/A5 notes. Actually come to think of it, I really start to have a problem at F5; she seems to lose resonance and power there. I've heard she's hit notes in the whistle register before, but unless she develops the ability to actually use it musically I'd like her to keep that to herself.

Which is why I find it fascinating if you can produce it in a healthy way. Thinking about it, I find it counterintuitive specifically because it requires grinding of the vocal cords which, although they vibrate at incredible speeds to produce sound already, require the singer to both coordinate the proper note as well as the affectation.

I know Mariah and Whitney also used it, but it seemed in sparing amounts comparative to how frequent Beyonce employs it. Let's forget that Mariah ever did this, though.

Is that how it is produced? I really didn't know how it was produced, and I can't produe a gravelly tone even when speaking so I can't try it to see if I can feel where it is coming from.

Yma Sumac - Chuncho
Lara Fabien - Je Suis Malade

And as much as Mumei despises her tone:

Rachell Ferrell - My Funny Valentine, and for more adventurous types: Autumn Leaves.

Yma Sumac's imitative ability throughout her range and particularly with superhead voice and whistle is stunning. For anyone who doesn't know, every warble, bird cry, squeak, croak, etc. that you hear comes right out of her mouth.

Amy Lee This is one of my favorites. Her problems usually were about breathing but the concert I went to she didnt had breathing issues so it seems she has learned to control things better.

I don't really listen to her music, but I did see her featured in a comparison video recently where she had some pretty great midbelts. And I do love her on the intro to Bring Me To Life.

Mumei, are we allow to also offer discussion/tips/etc on harsh or unclean singing as well?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I tend to prefer clean and at least mostly-technically-correct singing, but different genres call for different things (even things that aren't necessarily the healthiest production), and basically everything that isn't opera is going to call for technique that is below the "optimal" level of breath support and resonance. I think talking about singers who do incredible things with their voices (e.g. Robert Plant's voice only held out for a prime of about four years with all the abuse he gave it (and he quickly ruined his second prime post-surgery by doing exactly what he did before ), but what a prime it was!) is perfectly fine.

Holy fuck. What. I cant get over it. She's incredible. So glad you posted this. I've had 'fate' on repeat for what feels like way too little time.

Hahaha, yes. I actually listened to that part and 1:34 - 3:06 for about an hour before I finished the video.

I've always had a question about this type of singing.

How long can men sing like this before their voices give out completely? It seems so painful.

Any older men singing this way? Documentation on the style? I'm fascinated...

Hm, well. I think you have to remember some things:

1. This genre does not necessarily punish harsher and more strained vocals; this means that a singer can get progressively harsher and more strained for a very long time without being punished (e.g. people stop listening to him) for it.
2. I think that because this sort of singing tends to be very harsh, it selects for people who have more endurance and ability to take it; this is why you don't see many "God, he got nodules in a month of singing like this and couldn't sing anymore"; those people basically get weeded out before you'd even hear of them.
3. Related, different people have different levels of abuse they can take, and this is obviously true of women as well. Jennifer Holliday has been screaming, growling, and hollering for going on twenty years, and while you can hear and see the toll it has taken (and she's growling even more these days to compensate for it), her voice is obviously still pretty damn resilient. People with larger and thicker vocal folds naturally have more ability to take abuse, and men's folds are about a third larger (on average) than women's are. And some people simply recover better from short term vocal abuse; this ultimately means that some people's voices are able to handle stuff that would ruin another singer's voice in a month.
4. That said, I know from my time on other forums that there are quite a few men who begin singing like this, and then they progressively seem to lose range and tonal quality as time goes on.

I'm sorry, but I feel you guys think way too highly of Haley. I love her growling, but her technique goes to shit even sooner in the upper register than Xtina's did at her age (judging by that video. I don't know what the comments are hearing. In a lot of those videos the cheap cameras recording Haley were making her sound a lot louder than she really was). And, listening to her album, she hasn't exhibited the ability to interpret a song on even the same PLANE as Xtina. Plus, more offensively, she's got an annoying pipsqueak tone. Haley's still got a lot of growing up to do.

Well, let's keep this narrow for a moment! I was only specifically comparing her facility in that register; I agree that Christina is a (studio) better singer even if she isn't a better belter. Haley doesn't have the same volume as Christina (though again: Christina less demonstrates a big tone than she does loudness), but her production is still healthier. And you're just flat wrong about her technique going to shit early; Christina's has consistently started to show signs of strain as early as C5 since the beginning of her career. Haley has good projection and a solid resonant sound on what is an essentially small-ish voice, while maintaining a raspy timbre.

Haley is a good contrast in that respect for Christina because her fans have long clung to the argument that she just has a raspy sound or likes to have a growl in her voice; Haley's a good example of someone who consistently has that growl or rasp without the attendant strain and I think if you listen you can hear the difference. Beyonce is also a good example of someone who does it quite regularly.

And Leona, she had brief vibrato on that G5 in the previous video and you know that it can be very hard to maintain resonance and tonal clarity and openness and not having vibrato.

What I personally gravitate to when it comes to singers are beauty in tone (so no screamers, sorry), good technique, and versatility, both in sheer ability and in choosing their repertoire. For the most part, that narrows down the genres of music that I personally follow to those that value those qualities more than most, I feel: Soul (and some Pop), Jazz and Classical

I like you already.

There are so few standout voices nowadays. Every female voice seems to be some form of the singer/songwriter light and airy voice. Every male voice is freakishly high-pitched with not much uniqueness in the timbre or interpretation (I came to that conclusion when making a list is songs to sing in a new cover band I joined; I was having a real hard time finding current songs to cover that are in a more comfortable part of my range; men just don't sound like men anymore, I guess!). There are very few powerhouse singers, especially in comparison to decades past.

Damn you, Michael Jackson.

I do think it is interesting how basically every male singer these days tends to sing in the alto choral range (A3 - A5) instead of singing where their voice naturally sits and is most easily projected. I don't think that all of these singers naturally have freakishly high voices; I think they are choosing to sing above their natural timbre (and can do that easily because microphones allow them to sing notes above their projectable range; women do the same thing singing lower than what they would be able to sing sans artificial amplification, but I think women tend to sound better singing in chest in full voice an octave below where they'd be singing in head voice than men do singing in full voice half an octave above where they are actually comfortable... if that makes sense!).

 

[royalan]

Haley has good projection and a solid resonant sound on what is an essentially small-ish voice, while maintaining a raspy timbre.

Mind you, this might be because I'm half asleep, but I'm not sure of what I should be hearing in the Whitney clip. Her voice doesn't very strong or resonant. In fact it sounds weak and like she's chewing the words. Also doesn't help that all I can hear is Whitney singing that.

But I see what you're saying about the rasp. As with most things, and we've discussed this before, I wonder if the issues come in for Christina because she's trying to do all over these things at what seems to be max volume. :-/

Also, in reference to the growling, I've heard that there's no real "healthy" way to do it. It's all bad for your voice in the long term. Which is probably why singers like Whitney and Mimi used it sparingly...

 

[Mumei]

Mind you, this might be because I'm half asleep, but I'm not sure of what I should be hearing in the Whitney clip. Her voice doesn't very strong or resonant. In fact it sounds weak and like she's chewing the words. Also doesn't help that all I can hear is Whitney singing that.

Well, I was linking to the beginning of that part; I wanted you to listen to the whole three or four minute section. I wouldn't have meant for you to compare her to Whitney's flawlessness. But since you mentioned her, there she is.

But I see what you're saying about the rasp. As with most things, and we've discussed this before, I wonder if the issues come in for Christina because she's trying to do all over these things at what seems to be max volume. :-/

Well, remember: Loud volume =! Resonant or big tone. This is actually a good explanation of that difference from Bel Canto: Principles and Practices:

'LOUD' vs. 'BIG' TONE

In any discussion of tonal volume a very real distinction should always be made between a 'big' tone, or one that is well resonated, and a 'loud' tone, which is nothing but noise. 'Loud' singing is both inartistic and injurious to the voice and is to be avoided at all costs. A 'big' tone is the very essence of musical quality and indicates that the tone is being well resonated. As a sound phenomenon the two are direct opposites, both as to cause and effect.

The reaction of the vocal response to these two qualities is interesting to observe. With the 'big' tone the scale of intensity is always smooth and even throughout the entire range of the voice. Singing of this kind is marked by a notable absence of struggle and effort, while the vocal compass is usually ample for the performance of moderately difficult music at least.

When the technique is 'noisy' all this is changed. The scale of intensity becomes decidedly unbalanced. Most of the volume is concentrated in the upper middle part of the voice range and often attains a degree of power that can only be matched by the unpleasantness of the quality. The highest tones of the voice, together with a large segment of the lower portion of the range, will be weak and entirely out of proportion to the rest of the voice. To force either weakened area without making a fundamental change in both the mental and physical approach only leads to throatiness of the most extreme kind.

In addition to the handicap imposed by the vocal deficiencies already mentioned, the 'noisy' singing is compelled to make other sacrifices that further detract from his performance. All ability to 'color' the vowels and to create atmosphere and mood is necessarily surrendered to a boisterous and aggressive style without artistic merit. When a voice is 'noisy' all efforts at interpretation are circumscribed by the limited resources at the singer's command. Because of the excessive 'drive' and 'push' needed to support tones of this type, hoarseness due to strain frequently develops and the voice becomes rough and uneven.

Does this sound familiar? It should. You can hear the evenness of scale and tonality he's talking about for a resonant sound when you listen to Whitney's range in one minute, whereas Christina exemplifies his description of the qualities and pitfalls of a loud tone - and that was published in 1950.

Also, in reference to the growling, I've heard that there's no real "healthy" way to do it. It's all bad for your voice in the long term. Which is probably why singers like Whitney and Mimi used it sparingly...

Ah, maybe. It is very hard to find accurate information about it; I've looked and haven't found much of anything. I think that basically every male singer I've seen who sings like that has exhibited a notable decrease in tonal quality, range, and a lowering of the tessitura, so you're probably right that it is essentially unhealthy (though some singers can handle singing like that for twenty years and still sound pretty good in their songs, decline or no).

 

[shira]

I strongly recommend anyone trying to learn to sing to master their front and rear diaphragm - the diaphragm is a muscle and is just as important as the vocal muscles. Front is fairly easy if you do any sports - rear is very difficult.
Most people can not activate their diaphragm - so if you start noticing pain around the abdomen area - that is your atrophied diaphragm being activated.

 

[Mumei]

I strongly recommend anyone trying to learn to sing to master their front and rear diaphragm - the diaphragm is a muscle and is just as important as the vocal muscles. Front is fairly easy if you do any sports - rear is very difficult.
Most people can not activate their diaphragm - so if you start noticing pain around the abdomen area - that is your atrophied diaphragm being activated.

There's an interesting couple paragraphs about this in the book I'm reading now, William Vennard's Singing: the Mechanism and the Technic.

100 The most important of all inspiratory muscles is the diaphragm, which may be considered the floor of the ribcage or the ceiling of the belly.. It is described as a large dome-shaped muscle which divides the trunk into two parts, with the lungs and heart above and the rest of the viscera below. Actually it is almost a double dome, with the stomach and spleen under the left dome and the liver under the right. The heart is in the middle above, and the two domes are separated by the backbone (remember that apple-shape? Fig. 10). The upper portion of the diaphragm is the central tendon, and running down from it are muscular walls which attach to the lowest ribs, the sternum, and the backbone. Normally it is arched rather high in its relaxed position, and when it tightens it tends to flatten. (You can illustrate this by forming a dome with your hands, fingers interlaced, and showing how flattening the dome creates more space above it.) When the diaphragm exerts itself, the capacity of the air chamber is increased because its floor is dropped. Naturally this flattening of the dome will be coordinated with the expanding of the ribs, to which it is attached at its circumference.

101 At one time it was thought that the action of the diaphragm pulled the ribs up, It was supposed that the abdomen should draw in tightly, holding its contents high against the central tendon so that it could not descend. The central tendon would then become a "fulcrum" for the lifting of the the ribs. Lilli Lehman used this technic for twenty-five years before learning to relax the abdomen for inhalation (pp. 20-24). This was called "pancostal breathing" and the concept went well with the tight corsets that were worn in those days - sometimes even by men. It is true that a tight garment around the middle helps some singers with "breath control," and preventing the diaphragm from descending normally may be a factor. Browne and Behnke crusaded against this idea, and against corsets, and today few accept it. The fluoroscope now makes it very clear that the diaphragm always descends for inhalation, and in really deep breathing it descends radically (Fig. 12). After all, the ribs can be actuated by muscles enumerated above. It is better to list the diaphragm under belly breathing.

[...]

104 [...] Needless to say, the action of these muscles is instinctive, as is the case with most of the respiratory musculature. Training these muscles consists of conditioning these reflexes into patterns which are more efficient for singing, and this only modifies the overall behavior somewhat, as will be discussed later, beginning in Par. 113

And for illustration:

I included part of paragraph 104 because a lot of things related to singing we aren't really learning to control things directly (e.g. shaping the vocal passage or controlling the position of the larynx or controlling the vibrating speed of the vocal folds, but controlling them in an indirect fashion) and knowing one thing (the physiological) doesn't necessarily help with the pedagogical.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

I can't sing for shit, but since I'm very interested in learning composition, production and mastering of music tracks on FLStudio, so if anyone of you guys has sung material just sitting around I can play with, let me know :3

 

[shira]

There's an interesting couple paragraphs about this in the book I'm reading now, William Vennard's Singing: the Mechanism and the Technic.



And for illustration:

I included part of paragraph 104 because a lot of things related to singing we aren't really learning to control things directly (e.g. shaping the vocal passage or controlling the position of the larynx or controlling the vibrating speed of the vocal folds, but controlling them in an indirect fashion) and knowing one thing (the physiological) doesn't necessarily help with the pedagogical.

That is a very old and simplified way of thinking. That book was written in 1967. For any muscle - control and awareness is key in getting started. Then the higher brain functions take over. But diaphragm control comes from repeated practice which is why "hard working" prodigies can usually activate their diaphragms and vocal muscles very well.

Most current medical & kinesiology textbooks don't even acknowledge rear or lower diaphragm activation

The diaphragm can actually extend to push down to the buttocks as shown in this diagram which would be a very proficient athlete or singer. There was a worldclass woodwind at our hospital and her diaphragm was amazing - unfortunately she had no idea how to control it or how to teach her students about diaphragm control - it was just natural to her.

 

[Mumei]

That is a very old and simplified way of thinking. That book was written in 1967. For any muscle - control and awareness is key in getting started. Then the higher brain functions take over. But diaphragm control comes from repeated practice which is why prodigies can usually activate their diaphragms and vocal muscles very well.

Most current medical & kinesiology textbooks don't even acknowledge rear or lower diaphragm activation

The diaphragm can actually extend to push down to the buttocks as shown in this diagram which would be a very proficient athlete or singer. There was a worldclass woodwind at our hospital and her diaphragm was amazing - unfortunately she had no idea how to control it or how to teach her students about diaphragm control - it was just natural to her.

Ahhh.

I'm actually getting a book called Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy by James Stark that was published in 2003 for a more updated take.

But that does sound sort of like what I was getting at with how you described the woodwind at your hospital - it isn't something she can explain how she controls at the level of conscious thought; it is something that comes naturally to her (sort of the way that Lilli Lehman's vocal coordination came to her naturally earlier). And while this is something that can be taught, knowing the physiological side doesn't necessarily get you there alone.

Am I making sense?

 

[shira]

Ahhh.

I'm actually getting a book called Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy by James Stark that was published in 2003 for a more updated take.

But that does sound sort of like what I was getting at with how you described the woodwind at your hospital - it isn't something she can explain how she controls at the level of conscious thought; it is something that comes naturally to her (sort of the way that Lilli Lehman's vocal coordination came to her naturally earlier). And while this is something that can be taught, knowing the physiological side doesn't necessarily get you there alone.

Am I making sense?

No it makes sense. The problem with musical prodigies/natural athletes is that they have an innate ability to do things better than others - but they can't teach it. Their brain is just wired perfectly.

Good coaches may not be able to do it, but if they read up on their physiology they can teach it. Of course a perfect teacher is someone who can do both - very rare. I've only met one other person who can do this kind of stuff. Unfortunately, most teaching and training I've seen out there is monkey-see, monkey-do. You get a piece of paper and voila you are a coach/teacher/doctor.

 

[FreeMufasa]

Is it possible to learn how to sing if u sound like shit?

 

[shira]

Is it possible to learn how to sing if u sound like shit?

You just need someone to teach you how to activate your vocal muscles and diaphragm properly. Oh and they need perfect pitch ears.

Very rare unless you know what you are doing because you need to unteach bad habits and train atrophied muscles.

Like if you just youtube "singing lessons", buy a book, or just start singing everyday at home then I would say 1% chance.

Even if you find a good teacher - 10,000 hour rule is probably a good barometer.