Snickers ad pulled (Gay groups don't like)

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OriginX

Member
There was nothing wrong with that ad whatsoever, it was humorous. People who have a problem with this need fucking lives.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
The_Inquisitor said:
What's ironic is that this commercial is getting plenty of free exposure...
Indeed. But it has Mr. T firing a Snickers gatling gun. It's hard to get any more awesome than that.

And speed walking, if you're into that.
 
I want a Snicker's Gatling Gun installed on top of my breakfast table, to fill me with delicious caramel, nuts, and chocolate when I start my day.

Yum.

SO awesome.
 
Mumei said:
:lol

I guess I'll explain to all of the, "But they never said he's gay!"

Homophobia that is not rooted in religious beliefs ("God says it is wrong.") are mostly rooted in beliefs about masculinity and femininity. That is why effeminate gay men report the greatest number of homophobia related issues, why effeminate gay teens have higher reported rates of attempted suicide, and so forth. The advertisement plays into that; by saying, "Get some nuts!" it implies that you are not male if you are not masculine.

The gay groups dislike the ad because of that, not because they think that character in the advertisement was gay or think that male effeminacy is the exclusive purview of homosexuals.

People should read this post before they start spouting off about the commercial not targeting gays specifically. I'm not gay myself, but I don't like the way corporations dictate the terms of masculinity to society at large. Having such ignorant, rigid definitions of masculinity propagated constantly through the media (snickers ads, hamburger ads, beer ads, sports ads, ect.) is not beneficial to homo-sexuals, women, or straight men. People can pretend that media has no effect on culture, but the knee-jerk, hyper-masculine responses in this thread suggest otherwise.

Napoleonthechimp said:
Politically correct shit irritates the crap out of me, I wish people would grow a backbone. People don't like difference? Welcome to the world.

Well, if it irritates you, than I guess gay people should just "man-up" and tolerate harassment.
 

RevenantKioku

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kame-sennin said:
People should read this post before they start spouting off about the commercial not targeting gays specifically. I'm not gay myself, but I don't like the way corporations dictate the terms of masculinity to society at large. Having such ignorant, rigid definitions of masculinity propagated constantly through the media (snickers ads, hamburger ads, beer ads, sports ads, ect.) is not beneficial to homo-sexuals, women, or straight men. People can pretend that media has no effect on culture, but the knee-jerk, hyper-masculine responses in this thread suggest otherwise.
Well, if it irritates you, than I guess gay people should just "man-up" and tolerate harassment.
Ugh...this hurts so fucking much to read.
Look, part of the manning up is realizing that not everything is targeting you to offend you, and some things really are not a big deal.
It's getting to the point where nothing can be portrayed as anything. For fucks sake, if you have a character of a certain type portraying a certain trait, this is not saying everyone of that type has that trait! The oversensitivity is only making things worse, but no one wants to admit that because they prefer the short term happiness of being "progressive" by doing things like stopping commercials instead of focusing on real issues.
 
kame-sennin said:
People should read this post before they start spouting off about the commercial not targeting gays specifically. I'm not gay myself, but I don't like the way corporations dictate the terms of masculinity to society at large. Having such ignorant, rigid definitions of masculinity propagated constantly through the media (snickers ads, hamburger ads, beer ads, sports ads, ect.) is not beneficial to homo-sexuals, women, or straight men. People can pretend that media has no effect on culture, but the knee-jerk, hyper-masculine responses in this thread suggest otherwise.

Agreed.

I also love the irony of the oversensitive reaction people have to what they label as oversensitivity. It's almost as if "political correctness" - get this - offends them!
 

RevenantKioku

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Love To Love You Baby said:
Agreed.

I also love the irony of the oversensitive reaction people have to what they label as oversensitivity. It's almost as if "political correctness" - get this - offends them!
Does it feel good to pretend you're clever?
 

Mumei

Member
RevenantKioku said:
No.

What you're doing here is drawing too much out of something. As the problem we have today, we are being too accommodating of those who draw from their personal experiences and turn something innocent into something evil. Then you are only making it worse.
Bigotry's end isn't about only stopping hateful actions but also not thinking everything is somehow targeting you.

There is nothing innocent about the commercial's underlying implications that effeminate men are not "real" men. The commercial takes an issue of something very ugly and makes it humorous. It was an attempt to appeal to the sophomoric side of your average American male, and as this topic has shown, it has done that splendidly.

That said, I don't think it was targeting me, or gay people generally. I don't believe that the people in this topic who found it amusing are anti-gay, and I don't believe that the people at Mars had any ill-intentions in choosing to air this advertisement.

Look, part of the manning up is realizing that not everything is targeting you to offend you, and some things really are not a big deal.

And I'll admit:

This really isn't a big deal. That said, people were incredulous as to why anyone would possibly find such an amusing commercial offensive - and it is pretty damn obvious. Some people actually are that man, and have suffered the consequences of it, and they'd be offended by a commercial which shows it in a comical light. To put it perfectly bluntly: Anyone who has been assaulted because someone believed that they were acting like a faggot is probably offended by it.

I feel like Snickers has learned that this is a solid way of generating publicity - no one particularly cares if homosexual groups are offended by advertisement, especially if their being offended is predicated on weird notions about being offended by commercials implying that masculinity and heterosexuality are mutually intertwined and separate from homosexuality - and I don't really blame them for attempting a second go at it.

Oh god I'm going to get a Debbie Downer tag after this.
 
RevenantKioku said:
Does it feel good to pretend you're clever?

Please post a legitimate response to the hypocrisy of people whining about 'political correctness' and we'll get somewhere. Otherwise all you're telling me is that you don't have a response to it, and have resorted to playground insults.
 

RevenantKioku

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Love To Love You Baby said:
Please post a legitimate response to the hypocrisy of people whining about 'political correctness' and we'll get somewhere. Otherwise all you're telling me is that you don't have a response to it, and have resorted to playground insults.
But there is no hypocrisy. You are trying to be clever by making shit up. Not being a fan of overly politically correct stuff does not make one "offended" by it nor do I really see any "oversensitivity to oversensitive" going on here. You were trying to be funny by playing off words, but there is no logic to you bullshit. Of course, this can only go into a "You see it this way I see it this way." argument which I really don't have time for right now.

Mumei said:
There is nothing innocent about the commercial's underlying implications that effeminate men are not "real" men. The commercial takes an issue of something very ugly and makes it humorous. It was an attempt to appeal to the sophomoric side of your average American male, and as this topic has shown, it has done that splendidly.
This takes into account that you actually worry about these sorts of things to begin with, which I cannot sympathize with. As to say, if a Snickers commercial has you feeling insecure, the problem has deeper roots.
That said, I don't think it was targeting me, or gay people generally. I don't believe that the people in this topic who found it amusing are anti-gay, and I don't believe that the people at Mars had any ill-intentions in choosing to air this advertisement.
Then let it be, is what I am saying. There is no actual harm here, and there is no reason for it to be pulled.


And I'll admit:

This really isn't a big deal. That said, people were incredulous as to why anyone would possibly find such an amusing commercial offensive - and it is pretty damn obvious. Some people actually are that man, and have suffered the consequences of it, and they'd be offended by a commercial which shows it in a comical light. To put it perfectly bluntly: Anyone who has been assaulted because someone believed that they were acting like a faggot is probably offended by it.
As a straight man who has been called gay and been beaten up in various stages of my life for not being "manly", no it does not offend me in the slightest. I'd argue it's not obvious because I'm not looking to be offended.
 

RevenantKioku

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At least people would have laughed.
I guess my point is, I just can't take it seriously. I mean, if you have to stand and point out "NUH UH, REAL MEN DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT!" all I can see you is as insecure with yourself instead of really worried about some cause or something.
 
RevenantKioku said:
As a straight man who has been called gay and been beaten up in various stages of my life for not being "manly", no it does not offend me in the slightest. I'd argue it's not obvious because I'm not looking to be offended.

Yeah, see, the point is that some people have a problem with something that reinforces the general idea that there is something negative about someone who is perceived as gay or effeminate. The extreme expression of that is getting beat up, yeah.

If you don't think this commercial will have any affect, if even slightly, in a person's mindset about effeminate men, fine. Clearly some people disagree with that. Some people think only about fighting their battles on a macro level, and some people think about fighting them on a micro and macro level (and that you can't make an overall difference if you don't approach both). And other people don't want to change things at all.

RevenantKioku said:
But there is no hypocrisy. You are trying to be clever by making shit up. Not being a fan of overly politically correct stuff does not make one "offended" by it nor do I really see any "oversensitivity to oversensitive" going on here. You were trying to be funny by playing off words, but there is no logic to you bullshit. Of course, this can only go into a "You see it this way I see it this way." argument which I really don't have time for right now.

My point is that it's ironic that people whine that other people are whining, and you're only reinforcing it by getting all pissy about it, lol.
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Love To Love You Baby said:
My point is that it's ironic that people whine that other people are whining, and you're only reinforcing it by getting all pissy about it, lol.
This is such a loop that my head hurts. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see it.
Anyway, this was fun but I have real things to do now.
 

Mumei

Member
RevenantKioku said:
At least people would have laughed.

Thanks. ^_^

I guess my point is, I just can't take it seriously. I mean, if you have to stand and point out "NUH UH, REAL MEN DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT!" all I can see you is as insecure with yourself instead of really worried about some cause or something.

Well, see, I've actually done work on actual "causes" which are important to me. I don't plan on doing any legwork on this "issue." Frankly, I don't care enough to e-mail Mars, call them, write a petition, or even make a perfunctory threat against all that they hold dear - I'm making an argument for the offensiveness of the advertisement on a message board on the internet. I'm afraid you're overstating just how involved I am in this.

I've donated time, money, and a great deal of emotional investment in a number of other issues, most of which weren't going to be happening anytime soon anyway due to the current occupant of the Executive.

As for my insecurities, yeah, maybe I do have underlying insecurities from years of being told that I was a faggot and years of being told that being a faggot and being masculine are mutually exclusive, and maybe I find this offensive partially because of those insecurities.

But who knows?
 

hirokazu

Member
That didn't even have anything to do with gay. Just because some effeminate guys walk like that powerwalking guy in the ad, no need to cause a storm.
 
kame-sennin said:
People should read this post before they start spouting off about the commercial not targeting gays specifically. I'm not gay myself, but I don't like the way corporations dictate the terms of masculinity to society at large. Having such ignorant, rigid definitions of masculinity propagated constantly through the media (snickers ads, hamburger ads, beer ads, sports ads, ect.) is not beneficial to homo-sexuals, women, or straight men. People can pretend that media has no effect on culture, but the knee-jerk, hyper-masculine responses in this thread suggest otherwise.



Well, if it irritates you, than I guess gay people should just "man-up" and tolerate harassment.

Do you how often I get harassed because of the way I look? People shout at me from across the street because of it, but yet there's no group to lobby for my rights...

Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're camp and vice versa.
 
That is quite possibly the best food related ad I have ever seen, if only because Mr. T is in it with a fucking gatling gun.:lol
 

Mumei

Member
Effeminacy has been a stereotype of homosexuals since the term was first conceived in the medical community. Effeminacy is more common in adult homosexual males than in adult heterosexual males. In our society, especially among most high school-aged and college-aged males, effeminacy is treated as being equivalent to homosexuality. That is why gay groups worked in dispelling the notion that a person is necessarily gay simply because they appear to be so. They've done a good job of this; most of you have noted that there's nothing indicating that he is a homosexual (showing that you know that the stereotype is not necessarily true), ergo this commercial cannot have any undertones of violence towards homosexuals being humorous.

That line of reasoning is patently ridiculous. Whether you believe the commercial is funny or not does not affect this - I laughed at the commercial just for the fact that Mr. T burst out of a portal with a Snicker's Gatling gun. In our society, positive images of gay men are almost exclusively, save a few glaring exceptions, those of the so-called "straight-acting" type. They are very masculine. If the portrayal happens to be effeminate, they are the joke character, and are there for laughs. Gay men, both in fiction and in reality, are treated as more or less acceptable based upon their masculinity.

This commercial is simply an extension of that notion - male effeminacy is bad. There is no need to state that he is or is not a homosexual; the use of stereotypes which have been in existence for over a century.
 

eznark

Banned
That's an awesome ad. I didn't realize speed walking was a so embraced by the homosexual community.

I'm buying a case of Snickers (the new, "energy infused" ones).
 

Goreomedy

Console Market Analyst
Sir Fragula said:
I saw no gay in this advert. A friend of mine who's gay saw no gay in it. There is no gay in this advert.

I dunno.

A black leather-bear slamming his chocolate bars into the ivory starfish of a speed walker? I think it's pretty fucking hot!

This commercial more makes fun of the super-macho, I thought.
 
Mumei said:
Effeminacy has been a stereotype of homosexuals since the term was first conceived in the medical community. Effeminacy is more common in adult homosexual males than in adult heterosexual males. In our society, especially among most high school-aged and college-aged males, effeminacy is treated as being equivalent to homosexuality. That is why gay groups worked in dispelling the notion that a person is necessarily gay simply because they appear to be so. They've done a good job of this; most of you have noted that there's nothing indicating that he is a homosexual (showing that you know that the stereotype is not necessarily true), ergo this commercial cannot have any undertones of violence towards homosexuals being humorous.

That line of reasoning is patently ridiculous. Whether you believe the commercial is funny or not does not affect this - I laughed at the commercial just for the fact that Mr. T burst out of a portal with a Snicker's Gatling gun. In our society, positive images of gay men are almost exclusively, save a few glaring exceptions, those of the so-called "straight-acting" type. They are very masculine. If the portrayal happens to be effeminate, they are the joke character, and are there for laughs. Gay men, both in fiction and in reality, are treated as more or less acceptable based upon their masculinity.

This commercial is simply an extension of that notion - male effeminacy is bad. There is no need to state that he is or is not a homosexual; the use of stereotypes which have been in existence for over a century.

Lambasting people for promoting masculinity in males probably isn't going to solve anything, though. I have a hunch that it was evolutionarily advantageous to promote masculine ideals, especially within families. Being stronger, tougher, faster, etc. makes it more likely that one will bring home food from the hunt. A behavior that promotes those things would then be selected for. If my (completely unverified) hypothesis is true, we might be genetically predisposed as a species to promote masculinity. And if that is also true, any attempts to get them to stop idealizing masculinity will be about as successful as telling a person to be straight who is genetically predisposed toward homosexuality.
 
cyclonekruse said:
Lambasting people for promoting masculinity in males probably isn't going to solve anything, though. I have a hunch that it was evolutionarily advantageous to promote masculine ideals, especially within families. Being stronger, tougher, faster, etc. makes it more likely that one will bring home food from the hunt. A behavior that promotes those things would then be selected for. If my (completely unverified) hypothesis is true, we might be genetically predisposed as a species to promote masculinity. And if that is also true, any attempts to get them to stop idealizing masculinity will be about as successful as telling a person to be straight who is genetically predisposed toward homosexuality.

People use biological explanations to explain (or 'justify' might be the better term here) human beliefs and ideals all the time. I could cook up a hypothesis for idealized masculinity as being culturally created just as easily.
 

aechris

Member
kame-sennin said:
I don't like the way corporations dictate the terms of masculinity to society at large. Having such ignorant, rigid definitions of masculinity propagated constantly through the media (snickers ads, hamburger ads, beer ads, sports ads, ect.) is not beneficial to homo-sexuals, women, or straight men. People can pretend that media has no effect on culture, but the knee-jerk, hyper-masculine responses in this thread suggest otherwise.

That's what makes the commercial for me. It's funny because of the hyper-masculinity it's pushing. Of course it's ridiculous. Every time I see a beer/burger commercial about guys being MEN by eating MEAT it gives me a kick because they are being (and I hate to use the term, but) self-aware. I agree that they are also going for the demo group that actually buys into this shit, but for the most part I think people enjoy it because it's over-the-top manly.
 
cyclonekruse said:
Lambasting people for promoting masculinity in males probably isn't going to solve anything, though. I have a hunch that it was evolutionarily advantageous to promote masculine ideals, especially within families. Being stronger, tougher, faster, etc. makes it more likely that one will bring home food from the hunt. A behavior that promotes those things would then be selected for. If my (completely unverified) hypothesis is true, we might be genetically predisposed as a species to promote masculinity. And if that is also true, any attempts to get them to stop idealizing masculinity will be about as successful as telling a person to be straight who is genetically predisposed toward homosexuality.
I assure you there is no genetics when it comes to homosexuality. Society itself breeds homosexuality while genetics may make one more or less susceptible to partaking in homosexuality. Genetics, IMO, is not the trigger though. It is society.

I find it difficult to disagree with what you say about masculinity though. It does demonstrate that even within society, we are unable to escape our roots (those roots being the hunter, fighter, etc.), at least from a mental perspective.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
how is speed walking somehow inherently gay? Don't fuck with my Mr. T you assholes. If I remember correctly, the guys kissing one almost kind of deserved some backlash, but there was nothing wrong with this.
 
Love To Love You Baby said:
People use biological explanations to explain (or 'justify' might be the better term here) human beliefs and ideals all the time.

I am trying to explain (not justify) human behavior with a biological explanation, yes. And it's also true that many people us biological explanations to explain human behavior. Why does that make it any less valid as you seem to be suggesting?

Love To Love You Baby said:
I could cook up a hypothesis for idealized masculinity as being culturally created just as easily.

I'm sure you could. I would probably still think my explanation makes more sense on the face of it though. I think it's pretty undeniable that many (almost all) of the traits that are considered masculine would either help procure and protect resources (when we were still hunter-gatherers) or be attractive to women. Those are the two things that help pass on genes, which is what life is all about, evolutionarily speaking.
 
cyclonekruse said:
I am trying to explain (not justify) human behavior with a biological explanation, yes. And it's also true that many people us biological explanations to explain human behavior. Why does that make it any less valid as you seem to be suggesting?

Because biological explanations, especially ones with no actual evidence - like yours, often only serve as excuses not to change unfortunate aspects of society. Biology was used as support for white superiority and male superiority. Mumei wrote an excellent post on how hyper-idealization of masculinity is a problem, which I most certainly agree, and your response was that idealization of masculinity is probably intrinsic to human behavior. To me that sounds like at best an excuse not to change it, and at worst justifying its unfortunate existence.

cyclonekruse said:
I'm sure you could. I would probably still think my explanation makes more sense on the face of it though. I think it's pretty undeniable that many (almost all) of the traits that are considered masculine would either help procure and protect resources (when we were still hunter-gatherers) or be attractive to women. Those are the two things that help pass on genes, which is what life is all about, evolutionarily speaking.

I've had a biologist explain to me that dancing ability in males is a preferred trait, because it displays sexual ability to women. Yet socially men dancing has been considered effeminate, or at least the past several decades, and seems to go against that. So which is it?

My point is that what is considered 'masculine' varies from times to time, culture to culture. Today wearing makeup and the color pink would be seen as effeminate. Yet centuries ago pink was identified as a masculine color, and wearing makeup was routine for men of privilege.

And during the hunter-gathering days, it was the gathering, not the hunting, that procured most of the resources, and certainly a case could be made that matriarchy and idealized femininity certainly has a place in early human civilization, and that it's more fairly recent that masculinity became idealized.
 

Pojo

Banned
So basically, gay people admit that they act that way? Isn't that stereotyping, something that they flip out over?

I thought the commercial was funny. The guy looked retarded and Mr. T shot him with a gatling gun full of candy bars. Awesome.
 

Mumei

Member
cyclonekruse said:
Lambasting people for promoting masculinity in males probably isn't going to solve anything, though. I have a hunch that it was evolutionarily advantageous to promote masculine ideals, especially within families. Being stronger, tougher, faster, etc. makes it more likely that one will bring home food from the hunt. A behavior that promotes those things would then be selected for. If my (completely unverified) hypothesis is true, we might be genetically predisposed as a species to promote masculinity. And if that is also true, any attempts to get them to stop idealizing masculinity will be about as successful as telling a person to be straight who is genetically predisposed toward homosexuality.

I don't doubt that masculinity has some positive traits associated with it, and masculinity is not bad, nor is the positive portrayal of masculinity a problem. As a matter of personal preference, I prefer masculinity in men, and I'd be quite disappointed to see it go away, I can assure you. So, with that said, my problem isn't a positive portrayal of masculinity in men, but the negative portrayal of effeminacy in men.

And the problem today with the insistence on hypermasculinity is that the traits that are supposed to be "masculine" are, in my view, maladaptive. For instance, in the media's portrayal of masculinity in politics, "masculinity" is defined as being unintellectual, unilateral in decision-making, universal (as in being against identity politics), curt, hawkish on military matters, refusing to hear criticism, standing one's ground in the face of conflicting evidence, and a refusal to explain one's actions.

I don't believe that that is what it is to be masculine, but that is how it is defined in the media; it creates (as you might have guessed) a clear narrative of Democrats being the effeminate party and Republicans being the masculine party. This continues into coverage, where you see:

"And when historians trace how her inevitability dissolved, they will surely note this paradox: The first serious female candidate for president was rejected by voters drawn to the more feminine management style of her male rival."

"Well, everybody knows that a book club is no place for a man. So why has Barack Obama suddenly turned into Oprah? Willie Geist rounds up the girls, brings the chardonnay, and heads to the Oprah book club -- or the Obama book club -- when we come back."

"I mean, when he gets up there, he says we're waging a war against cynicism. That is too abstract. It has nothing to do with the concerns of ordinary people, and it is also, frankly, kind of wimpy."

"He seems like kind of a wuss, though."

"What a sensitive little man!"

"[video clip of Obama bowling]

SCARBOROUGH: Oh, that's so dainty. Ugh.[...]

SCARBOROUGH: A very human side? A prissy side."

Which merely covers the commentary on Obama; when you look at Gore's coverage in 2000, you see that he was apparently so effeminate that he was "practically lactating." To suggest that perhaps how we portray masculinity - hyper-aggressive, unintelligent, self-centered, arrogant to the point of hubris, a refusal to consider the input of others, etc. - is maladaptive isn't to say that masculinity itself is bad.
 
Mumei said:
This commercial is simply an extension of that notion - male effeminacy is bad. There is no need to state that he is or is not a homosexual; the use of stereotypes which have been in existence for over a century.

This is really the point right here. Most people can't get passed the the fact that a gay group protested the ad. But anyone can (and should) be upset by the way media is trying to define gender roles. The sad fact is, most people in this thread are stuck on a "gay group is bitching, but the guy in the ad isn't even gay!" line of thinking.

aechris said:
That's what makes the commercial for me. It's funny because of the hyper-masculinity it's pushing. Of course it's ridiculous. Every time I see a beer/burger commercial about guys being MEN by eating MEAT it gives me a kick because they are being (and I hate to use the term, but) self-aware. I agree that they are also going for the demo group that actually buys into this shit, but for the most part I think people enjoy it because it's over-the-top manly.

I see where you're coming from, and I laugh at these commercials for the same reasons (except for the meat ones, which make me furious) but, they are not satire. These ads absolutely push masculine stereotypes regardless of any hints of irony that might be sprinkled in by clever marketing people.

Edit: Mumei, were did you get those media quotes?
 

Slavik81

Member
Mumei said:
Is something that is "politically incorrect" well-defined as, "anything that does not offend me, yet still offends humorless minorities?"
That's just about everything, apparently. Just try and offend me.
Try.
 

2DMention

Banned
LoL @ the banner ad:

imgad
 

MaddenNFL64

Member
It got pulled? Noooooo...

Mr. T deserved this awesomely funny commercial, gay community. This had nothing to do with you....

:(
 

Taichu

Member
I think the commercial is making fun of the concept of "speed-walking" versus running. I really don't see the connections to homosexuality. Mr. T, as the pop-culture member of the A-Team, just holds the kid up to his "macho" standards of exercise. It's so over the top too, which signifies people to not take it seriously.
 
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