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[HomerSimpson-Man]

Tensions mounting, vague deadlines nearing, exciting yes? Spring feels like an eternity away at this pace.

 

[Unison]

It looks slightly better than Kameo, for sure, but a lot of that lies in the graphical effects like the bloom lighting and the "camera" focus.

 

[Mrbob]

what

kryptonian calling me out?!?!?!? :lol More PDZ beatdowns are coming now!!

Sony needs to match Xbox Live service to get me to go away from the 360 over the next 5 years as my main platform. I'll still get a PS3, but online is my way to game and unless Sony can match MS it'll be my secondary hi def movie/game player.

Of course the proof is in the pudding. I want to see what is cooking for the PS3 first. Although after playing the FNR3 demo on 360, I have no concerns about the 360 keeping pace with the Playstation 3. I may not buy the game, but the demo quenched many of my technical concerns about the platform.

Shame about the guy getting fired, but he shouldn't have said anything.

 

[SolidSnakex]

EA said that Madden would look like the target render too. Oh well.

Except HS wasn't a target render. That was an engine that they'd been building for awhile before then.

 

[Ponn]

EA said that Madden would look like the target render too. Oh well.

Target renders are shit.

Now you gone and did it...

cue silent hill guy.....

 

[DonasaurusRex]

countdown till the models are called "plasticky"

in
5
4
3....

 

[krypt0nian]

Except HS wasn't a target render. That was an engine that they'd been building for awhile before then.

The point is it sure as hell wasn't a game. If it were, he wouldn't have to say the machine would be capable. I'm not saying its not possible. I sure as hell want it to be. But nothing exists for me yet, except for MGS4 and the other realtime confirmed things.

Now you gone and did it...

cue silent hill guy.....

Exception proves the rule? Shit that Silent Hill thing was seriosuly made by Satan. Its not of this space-time continuum. :lol

 

[Shogmaster]

In the same Beyond3D thread, DeanoC, the lead programmer of Heavenly Sword had this to say about his game:

Q: Since you guys are here, will the outdoor scenes in HS actually look that good in the final game? After seeing the big drop N3 seems to have taken in it's newest screens, it just seems the quality in those outdoor scenes is very very ambitious. Can you comment at all?

A: I'll stick with my previous comments, that there is nothing that we showed in the E3 demo thats not achievable at full framerate on the machine were working on.


This is what his game looks like:

Seems pretty next-gen to me...

Dude, don't set up yourself like that with screenshots. It could come back and bite you on the ass. TRUST ME.

 

[puebla]

In the same Beyond3D thread, DeanoC, the lead programmer of Heavenly Sword had this to say about his game:

Q: Since you guys are here, will the outdoor scenes in HS actually look that good in the final game? After seeing the big drop N3 seems to have taken in it's newest screens, it just seems the quality in those outdoor scenes is very very ambitious. Can you comment at all?

A: I'll stick with my previous comments, that there is nothing that we showed in the E3 demo thats not achievable at full framerate on the machine were working on.


This is what his game looks like:

Seems pretty next-gen to me...

is this in-game, cgi, cutscene..........what is it??

 

[mashoutposse]

LOL, SSx

EA said that Madden would look like the target render too. Oh well.

Target renders are shit.

That's not a target render -- he has already stated that those are actual PS3-rendered scenes outputted at 1080p and stitched together to simulate an acceptable framerate.

 

[Raistlin]

EA said that Madden would look like the target render too. Oh well.

Target renders are shit.

The isn't a target render though ...

 

[Vibri]

Do you understand the complexity of making a game run stable with multiple assets, AI implementation, full lighting, particle effects, shaders, rendering, etc, etc, on an incomplete and unstable dev-kit? The shit you pointed out is elementary stuff kid, when you get to high school then we'll talk ok?

I have a masters degree and have worked in the video game industry for 11 years, so let's dispense with the playground jibes and stick to the point shall we?

You said 'nothing on PS3 is realtime', when there's an overwhelming amount of hard evidence that there is. See post above.

Now, if you want to retract or change your statement along the lines of "I haven't seen any finished game code running on final hardware" then yes, that would be a different discussion. Though frankly, there seem to be some pretty advanced shaders, particle effects, environmental AI, and 'rendering' (as you generically put it) already running on in the MGS4 demo, yes, in realtime.

 

[BlueTsunami]

is this in-game, cgi, cutscene..........what is it??

I believe its an ingame cutscene

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

countdown till the models are called "plasticky"

in
5
4
3....

I'ill call it right now, they all are!!!

We're still playing videogames!!

Guess what word you can use it describe the entire gen of visual games of this gen if you really want to? It's subtle differences and reactions of the received designs that's of any forward or backward thought to discussion.

 

[Gek54]

One poster = xbots now? :lol

Excuse me, xbot.

Seriously what is the arguement? .. that MGS4, looking as good as it did over 6 months ago running at 60fps on a very early and UNDERPOWERED dev kit, shouldnt be considered impressive becuase it MIGHT not have been running a few AI routines? WOW.

 

[krypt0nian]

LOL, SSx



That's not a target render -- he has already stated that those are actual PS3-rendered scenes outputted at 1080p and stitched together to simulate an acceptable framerate.

Ok wrong choice of words. The point was, its sure not a playable game. When it is, we can judge it. Until then, its smoke.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The point is it sure as hell wasn't a game. If it were, he wouldn't have to say the machine would be capable. I'm not saying its not possible. I sure as hell want it to be. But nothing exists for me yet, except for MGS4 and the other realtime confirmed things.

The HS demo is one of the demos confirmed to be real time.

 

[monkeymagic]

EA said that Madden would look like the target render too. Oh well.[/B]

Nothing to do with the X360 because it has such fabulouse tools and is so efficient.

Nor could it have anything to do with EA because they're such fabulous developers.

I mean look at the FN3 demo - that shit is unreal with all TWO fighters looking amazingly real!

 

[Ponn]

Tensions mounting, vague deadlines nearing, exciting yes? Spring feels like an eternity away at this pace.

Meh, if I do get a PS3 at launch it will be U.S. so i'm not worrying about it till closer to fourth quarter here. I'm still intersted on when it launches in Japan though just for final specs, what's in it and how robust the media capabilities are. Getting a PS3 at launch hinges on most of those things for me. If not I will wait and continue playing my roommates Xbox 360 and making do with PS2 games coming out.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Tensions mounting, vague deadlines nearing, exciting yes? Spring feels like an eternity away at this pace.

Sony's media blackout and NDA ninjas suck, but the effects on the internet kinda make up for it. We're getting to that peak of winter in northern Alaska period, its nightime all the time and people are going fucking crazy.

 

[krypt0nian]

The HS demo is one of the demos confirmed to be real time.

Real time at what framerate? C'mon you know what I'm saying.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Real time at what framerate? C'mon you know what I'm saying.

The indoor scenes ran well, the outdoor scenes had to sped up. Point is that they didn't create a render, that's the engine they've been working on.

 

[Ponn]

Nothing to do with the X360 because it has such fabulouse tools and is so efficient.

Nor could it have anything to do with EA because they're such fabulous developers.

I mean look at the FN3 demo - that shit is unreal with all TWO fighters looking amazingly real!

The FN3 demo is pretty fecking cool. One of the few games I actually said "now this is next gen" while playing on my roommates 360. Shit that demo alone is getting huge playtime here.

 

[krypt0nian]

Excuse me, xbot.

Seriously what is the arguement? .. that MGS4, looking as good as it did over 6 months ago running at 60fps on a very early and UNDERPOWERED dev kit, shouldnt be considered impressive becuase it MIGHT not have been running a few AI routines? WOW.

I have no clue what Lil Dice is talking about. @_@

 

[kaching]

Not at all. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people employed by my company who dislike the product we put out, many of them post in online forums to vent their frustrations; doesn't make them un-believable or untrustworthy, just disgruntled. I choose not to post anything detrimental to my job because I respect our guidelines, he didn't and it was his choice.

Being disgruntled isn't any kind of rationalization for disrepecting a company's requests for discretion, esp. if those requests are explicitly laid out in the form of a binding contract that one consents to sign. You disrespect those requests, you brand yourself untrustworthy, simple as that. You may have a worthy reason that absolves you of the transgression but if disgruntlement is the best reason you can come up with, you fall far short. Everybody's threshold for becoming disgruntled is different - it could be as little as being asked to cut your lunch break short by 10 minutes on one particular day - but the kind of things that would warrant dissent in public forums outside of the company aren't covered by "disgruntled".

 

[mashoutposse]

Real time at what framerate? C'mon you know what I'm saying.

Q: hey Dean, what framerate is the outdoor scenes currently running at?

A: Outdoor scenes of the complexity of the trailer are currently slow about 5fps I think. Thats over 2000 real guys (there are visibly more but far away there not proper guys) with the general shadow system (its a CPU killer for so many entities, its at the top of my list to be moved off the main core),
We aren't even close to getting this stuff working optimally yet...

This response is from July 2005. The other tidbit I posted above was from a day or two ago. It now sounds like he's completely confident that he's going to hit a playable framerate.

 

[sportzhead]

If the PS3 can push out graphics like that in realtime, show me. Stop with all the target renders, CG, and non game play tech demos. Show me a game in motion being played by someone with those graphics and you will have my money.

Sony acting like a kid in high school that says he has a crazy good looking girlfriend that goes to another school, but carries a picture around of her in his backpack to prove it.

 

[Unison]

Being disgruntled isn't any kind of rationalization for disrepecting a company's requests for discretion, esp. if those requests are explicitly laid out in the form of a binding contract that one consents to sign. You disrespect those requests, you brand yourself untrustworthy, simple as that. You may have a worthy reason that absolves you of the transgression but if disgruntlement is the best reason you can come up with, you fall far short. Everybody's threshold for becoming disgruntled is different - it could be as little as being asked to cut your lunch break short by 10 minutes on one particular day - but the kind of things that would warrant dissent in public forums outside of the company aren't covered by "disgruntled".

I think it's more likely that he thought he was tiptoeing around the NDA with his vague comments. He probably wasn't really disgruntled at all...

 

[Raistlin]

Real time at what framerate? C'mon you know what I'm saying.

At what framerate? The engine isn't complete and obviously hasn't been optimized.

The point being, why would they have worked on an engine and assets for as long as they have if there is no possibility of it updating at a usable framerate? Obviously it's possible some effects, etc. might have to be reduced - but still, a team wouldn't waste time on something that they are just going to throw out.

This isn't like Killzone CG*

















*runs

 

[3rdman]

Nothing to do with the X360 because it has such fabulouse tools and is so efficient.

EA has always sucked and you can't expect much on launch software...Is this your first system launch or something?

Nor could it have anything to do with EA because they're such fabulous developers.

EA has always sucked and you can't expect much on launch software...Is this your first system launch or something?

I mean look at the FN3 demo - that shit is unreal with all TWO fighters looking amazingly real!

It looks better because they've had more time to work with the hardware...simple.

 

[Lil' Dice]

I have a masters degree and have worked in the video game industry for 11 years, so let's dispense with the playground jibes and stick to the point shall we?

You said 'nothing on PS3 is realtime', when there's an overwhelming amount of hard evidence that there is. See post above.

Now, if you want to retract or change your statement along the lines of "I haven't seen any finished game code running on final hardware" then yes, that would be a different discussion. Though frankly, there seem to be some pretty advanced shaders, particle effects, environmental AI, and 'rendering' (as you generically put it) already running on in the MGS4 demo, yes, in realtime.

I'm pretty sure you know what i meant, especialy if you took the time to read my posts.
However, if you want to make this argument about my critical comment towards the PS3 and you taking offense to them, then by all means.....IF not, then you'll just have to deal with my criticism until something more tangible is shown by Sony....I really don't feel i should be explaining this to someone with 11 years in the business though

 

[Shogmaster]

If the PS3 can push out graphics like that in realtime, show me. Stop with all the target renders, CG, and non game play tech demos. Show me a game in motion being played by someone with those graphics and you will have my money.

Sony acting like a kid in high school that says he has a crazy good looking girlfriend that goes to another school, but carries a picture around of her in his backpack to prove it.

Seriously. Those antics worked fine back in May 2005, but In middle of january with only 2~4 months until launch, we need footage of people playing real games (especially if what that Sony rep told me about some 1st party games being ready for review process as early as Febuary).

 

[Raistlin]

Isn't that February show still happening?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Seriously. Those antics worked fine back in May 2005, but In middle of january with only 2~4 months until launch, we need footage of people playing real games (especially if what that Sony rep told me about some 1st party games being ready for review process as early as Febuary).

It's only a month away before the Playstation Festival. So you don't have to wait that much longer.

 

[DCharlie]

"Wait dude, he doesn't actually say the game will look like that. He says the system is capable of it. SPPPPPPPPPPIN!"

i know you are taking the piss - but... yes!!!!

Why can't anyone just say "YES, the game WILL look like this?" I'm pretty sure it's nothing to do with NDAs, so i'm guessing the answer is because most likely they are hedging thier bets incase they can't! I'd assume Deano and crew are working hard to get what was running at 5fps realtime upto (hopefully) 60fps with full AI , collissions, physics etc.

I have a lot of respect for Deano - the devloper diary really makes you root for NT - but really at this stage, no one is committing to saying they can do what they presented without having an escape clause in what they say. But really, this is a yes/no answer :
"Since you guys are here, will the outdoor scenes in HS actually look that good in the final game? " - instead, we get the cryptic response.

Not that i blame them, but it's a running theme to a lot of quotes surrounding the PS3.

"Being disgruntled isn't any kind of rationalization for disrepecting a company's requests for discretion, esp. if those requests are explicitly laid out in the form of a binding contract that one consents to sign. You disrespect those requests, you brand yourself untrustworthy, simple as that."

i think what is muddying the waters here is there is being untrustworthy in "you can't keep an NDA" and untrustworth as in "what he says is false". Seems that some people earlier are suggesting that not being able to do the first implies that the second is also applicable, which i'd disagree with.

 

[Shogmaster]

This isn't like Killzone CG*

Speaking of which, guess which trailer was conspicuously absent from the PS3 trailer-a-rama at CES! :lol

 

[Unison]

(especially if what that Sony rep told me about some 1st party games being ready for review process as early as Febuary).

Wow, that's insane... If Sony does put out a launch lineup that looks exactly like that demo reel we saw, they've played this brilliantly. If they put out a launch lineup that looks like the 360 launch lineup, they've failed to live up to the hype.

I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 could do the stuff we saw in those game demos. The question is whether launch games can do that stuff or if we'll have to wait until the end of the console's life to see that level of potential (like we did with the PS2 demos).

 

[krypt0nian]

Q: hey Dean, what framerate is the outdoor scenes currently running at?

A: Outdoor scenes of the complexity of the trailer are currently slow about 5fps I think. Thats over 2000 real guys (there are visibly more but far away there not proper guys) with the general shadow system (its a CPU killer for so many entities, its at the top of my list to be moved off the main core),
We aren't even close to getting this stuff working optimally yet...

This response is from July 2005. The other tidbit I posted above was from a day or two ago. It now sounds like he's completely confident that he's going to hit a playable framerate.

Cool, but at the time its had to be sped up. Its one of my most wanted games on PS3 so I'm all for that. My point is nothing can be gleened from things when they have to be "faked" on any level, target render or not. I guess I'd just rather not see anything until it can be something closer to real. At the point of E3, it sure didn't fill me with confidence as nothing felt "real" Amazing videos that I still have on my PSP....but not "real"


See that's the thing. I don't get excited for a console until far closer to reality. That's why I get labeled a Sonybot for the PSP and an xbot for the 360. If anything, I'm a launch fanboy. Launch time and the immediate build up is what I love more than anything.

Once I'm sure that I have a handle on the PS3 (February please!) then I'm certain to be labeled a Sony fanboy by the more ignorant folks here. Its happened over and over.

 

[Lil' Dice]

Being disgruntled isn't any kind of rationalization for disrepecting a company's requests for discretion, esp. if those requests are explicitly laid out in the form of a binding contract that one consents to sign. You disrespect those requests, you brand yourself untrustworthy, simple as that. You may have a worthy reason that absolves you of the transgression but if disgruntlement is the best reason you can come up with, you fall far short. Everybody's threshold for becoming disgruntled is different - it could be as little as being asked to cut your lunch break short by 10 minutes on one particular day - but the kind of things that would warrant dissent in public forums outside of the company aren't covered by "disgruntled".

Considering the fact that "disgruntled" employees have gone on killing sprees in the workplace, I don't think criticizing the PS3 is too extreme to be considered disgruntlement. Anyway, don't take it up with me; I'm an honest employee

 

[Raistlin]

Speaking of which, guess which trailer was conspicuously absent from the PS3 trailer-a-rama at CES! :lol

Shocking

Considering the fact that "disgruntled" employees have gone on killing sprees in the workplace, I don't think criticizing the PS3 is too extreme to be considered disgruntlement.

That is an interesting perspective ... and a very good point.

 

[mashoutposse]

i know you are taking the piss - but... yes!!!!

Why can't anyone just say "YES, the game WILL look like this?" I'm pretty sure it's nothing to do with NDAs, so i'm guessing the answer is because most likely they are hedging thier bets incase they can't! I'd assume Deano and crew are working hard to get what was running at 5fps realtime upto (hopefully) 60fps with full AI , collissions, physics etc.

I have a lot of respect for Deano - the devloper diary really makes you root for NT - but really at this stage, no one is committing to saying they can do what they presented without having an escape clause in what they say. But really, this is a yes/no answer :
"Since you guys are here, will the outdoor scenes in HS actually look that good in the final game? " - instead, we get the cryptic response.

Not that i blame them, but it's a running theme to a lot of quotes surrounding the PS3.



i think what is muddying the waters here is there is being untrustworthy in "you can't keep an NDA" and untrustworth as in "what he says is false". Seems that some people earlier are suggesting that not being able to do the first implies that the second is also applicable, which i'd disagree with.

Note that he posted that comment in a thread where someone got fired for talking too much. I'm surprised he said anything at all.

 

[Lil' Dice]

An before i'm branded an Xbot. My 1005 GOTY was a tie between God of war and RE4 on the PS2.
I even liked Drakan 2 on the PS2....

 

[Fuma]

If the PS3 can push out graphics like that in realtime, show me. Stop with all the target renders, CG, and non game play tech demos. Show me a game in motion being played by someone with those graphics and you will have my money.

Sony acting like a kid in high school that says he has a crazy good looking girlfriend that goes to another school, but carries a picture around of her in his backpack to prove it.

QFT. Well said. Maybe we will see in February. Project Assassins has got me really hyped though. Looking forward to seeing if Sony can deliver.

 

[Vibri]

Look: it's pretty obvious that every single argument regarding this and the E3 demos can be resolved in one sentence: Sony doesn't want to show PS3 games running on unfinished hardware. The end.

Why? See how much EVERYONE bitched and whined at all the 360 stuff shown at last year's E3 and even TGS/X05 months later. With the exception of Gears of War, which was the only 360 game at E3 not running on an unfinished dev kit, but on a monster dual core PC. It's only in the last few weeks before launch - literally - when the games started to be optimised for final 360 hardware, did stuff like PGR3 even come close to running at a solid frame rate.

Sony is obviously taking a lesson from that, and waiting until the first crop of games can be optimised for the final system. Let's be sensible, this is a hugely important new system launch for them with a lot of unproven new tech, and they'd be utterly stupid to show anything to the public that isn't already fantastic (MGS4) or close to being representative (pretty much everything else).

 

[BlueTsunami]

~Snip~

Oh Snap

 

[DCharlie]

"Note that he posted that comment in a thread where someone got fired for talking too much. I'm surprised he said anything at all."

but i don't see how he would be breaking any NDA! They've already shown the engine running sped up in realtime, the only problem i would see is if he commented on problems or issues. If he said "yes, it will look like that" - i doubt sony would charge him with NDA breaking (?)

Anyways, i hope it does live up - because it looks very nice indeed. Go NT!!!!

 

[MightyHedgehog]

the posters on Beyond3d drop their pants everytime any dev there comes close to nudging at sony's nda.

but when a negative opinion came out all of the sudden they were worried about the legality of it all...

QFMFT

 

[Raistlin]

Yeah, once info is officially disclosed - it's free game to discuss at length as long as no new info is released.

 

[kaching]

I think it's more likely that he thought he was tiptoeing around the NDA with his vague comments. He probably wasn't really disgruntled at all...

Vague? Most of that was pretty blatantly out in the open. Other than not mentioning exactly which demo he worked on by name, he didn't tiptoe around much else. And if he isn't disgruntled, he's just being an attention whore - neither path is going to do much for his credibility.

i think what is muddying the waters here is there is being untrustworthy in "you can't keep an NDA" and untrustworth as in "what he says is false". Seems that some people earlier are suggesting that not being able to do the first implies that the second is also applicable, which i'd disagree with.

What people are saying is that the second is more likely if the first is present, taking into account the motive for breaking NDA in the first place as well. It's either disgruntlement or attention-mongering, neither of which is good reason to break an NDA and either trait is grounds to question the general truthfulness of what they have to say on its own.

Considering the fact that "disgruntled" employees have gone on killing sprees in the workplace, I don't think criticizing the PS3 is too extreme to be considered disgruntlement.

Did I say it wasn't disgruntlement? Pay attention - I said disgruntlement wasn't suitable justification for the actions taken...just like being disgruntled isn't suitable justification for going on a killing spree.

 

[BlueTsunami]

QFMFT

Considering a good amount of posters there are Developers themselves (who understand the seriousness of breaching an NDA to your career). I don't understand the issue with that (with talking about the legality of breaching an NDA). Theres also a flip side to that. Just like the "factions" here, its the same there (unforunatley).