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South Park is not subversive
- Thread starter Malyse
- Start date
Dude Abides
Banned
It's not surprising that you're at a loss. The notion that a work can mock two things, but one more viciously than the other, is a nuance that I'd expect to be confusing to people whose idea of good satire was shaped by South Park.
thepenguin55
Member
I haven't watched the past 3-4 seasons of South Park and this blog almost makes me want to watch it out of spite. Just goes to show that even the left has its own idiots to deal with...
Wasn't the thesis of Team America, essentially elaborated in the following spiel:
Basically, dicks (conservativess) are bad, but pussies (liberals) are worse, and in the case of the Iraq War, the dicks (conservatives) are essentially doing the right thing?
Basically, dicks (conservativess) are bad, but pussies (liberals) are worse, and in the case of the Iraq War, the dicks (conservatives) are essentially doing the right thing?
...eh? They have made fun of Bush over entire seasons. I'm not sure what you gain by lying like this but it's a very poor and confusing lie all the same.
MajinSweet4
Member
So you seriously think the main characters were intended to be "good guys" just going a little overboard? You're so stuck on the concept of "two sides" that you don't even know what nuance is.
freethoughtbubble
Member
Seriously. It's been more than a decade since I actively watched the show, but its critics are so humorless and strident that South Park has to be doing something right. Think I'll be adding it to my rotation, along with R&M and Bojack.
Admittedly, it's been over a decade since I've seen the movie, but...isn't that exactly what they're supposed to be?
No, it's supposed to show how america trying to police everything fucks thing more, it wasn't the "good guys going a little overboard" it was the "good guys" completely making shit worse.
What did he mean by this?
Member
New episode was terrible but let the season play out at least
Right, but in the end, they wind up saving the day.
MajinSweet4
Member
No, they are characterized as racist, murdering idiots. And the thing about that "spiel" is that is the trope of the motivational speech that inspires the hero to triumph. Except by that point in the movie we have been shown that the hero's are complete idiots. You're not supposed to take that at face value and think "ah, so the ends justify the means after all!", you're supposed to laugh at the subversion of the trope. If you want to think of the main characters as conservative, then it makes more sense to think of the liberals as a representation of how conservatives view them. The hero's view the Film Actors Guild as just as bad as terrorist because "if your not with us, your against us!" While the movie obviously does take some shots at the left, I find it crazy to think people think it's actually harder on the left than it is the right. Again, the movie is called Team America: World Police.
You're not supposed to take everything literally. Again, the main joke of the movie is about how everything is framed from the rights point of view. Think of the AMERICA FUCK YEAH MONTAGE. You're supposed to laugh because, wow a lot of stupid conservatives actually think that. Same thing with them killing liberal actors. You're not supposed to actually think "Man, this movie hates Sam Jackson!" And again, I'll stress, I'm not saying the movie is 100% on board with the left. But it's certainly not siding with the GWB and his presidency that's for sure.
Dude Abides
Banned
Yes yes, "if you disagree with me you're a dummy."
Let me know if and when you have an actual argument.
Well said about the undying allegiance thing.
The thing about South Park is that it comes from an age where the "both sides" satire was actually not a horrifying prospect. Sure, Republicans were still generally bigoted and hypocritical in the late 90's, but when it was fashionable for mass media to take a liberal bias without recognizing their own hypocrisy and shortcomings, SP was ready to call them out. Which I don't think is that awful of a thing. The way liberals reacted then and stuck-up progressives react now(and I say this as a liberal/progressive myself) is that they absolutely can not laugh at themselves or even consider any flaws in their own viewpoint, even when the commentary itself is somewhat benign and light-hearted. Even the lightest jabs are seen by the snobbiest progressives as all-out war, and that's a real problem when I feel SP does more good these days than bad. Even the new episode last night made it a point to roast white supremacists for the pitiful reasoning behind their hatred(economic anxiety being an excuse for why they are racist, and not being able to keep up because of their own inability to modernize themselves for a modernized workforce). People who take issue with South Park though will talk about the problems with Manbearpig a thousand times over but never mention an episode like last night's.
These days the both sides commentary is just dumb because one side has Nazis as their allies, so it's far harder to be politically cynical to the point where you're willing to make fun of the side that's clearly on correct side of history. That's why they barely ever do the both sides thing anymore, because there is nothing noble that the other side stands for and the hyper-partisanship has basically forced the hands of the creators to align themselves with a more consistently liberal point of view. I feel like the critics don't give South Park enough credit for being extremely socially progressive over the years. They haven't been perfect and it's sometimes been because of the ignorance of the creators, but I think they've gotten better. The alt-right criticism that some here level is fucking laughable though, and it illustrates the very real issue of some of those on the democrat side not being able to recognize their own allies(as seen in the daily Clinton/Sanders threads we still have here).
That's more about closing up the movie plot than thinking they're heroes, it's like, you watch rick and morty and you expect Rick to win in the end, but you are not supposed to think Rick is a good guy.
I repeat, the movie is constructed as a parody of a conservative's propaganda wet dream taken to absurd levels.
Exactly. People shouldn't be using arguments like that. I mean, look at this guy
You just don't understand satire like he does. Probably because you're such a mental midget. Hardly your fault but just sad to see.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
It's fun to watch someone so oblivious be so arrogant.
Dude Abides
Banned
almost as fun as watching people tie themselves in knots of rage when someone points out the obvious about their fave TV show.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Please quote some "knots of rage".
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I don't know why you're quoting me about that. I don't take your opinion seriously enough to get mad about it. It's just fun to watch you flail around.
Dude Abides
Banned
👌
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
The kind of environment that gave rise to Eminem, South Park, "Shock jocks" and the like just doesn't really mesh with our current political climate. It's hard to examine it using a present-day lens when its roots are still grounded in an "offend everybody" apolitical late 90's edginess. The notion of offending people deliberately has taken on a more partisan divide the last five years or so, but to my knowledge notions of political correctness, respect for others (specifically those unlike yourself), and "going high when they go low" was not a stark blue/red divide in the first decade of the show's existence.
I may be projecting but I believe that notion was perfectly comprehended by the poster you're quoting
I think the point was that you were incorrect about which side got mocked more viciously than the other, not that two sides can be mocked to varying degrees of viciousness
example: the movie is called Team America: World Police. it's pretty obvious where the main target lies.
What about the last 2 seasons?
GuessMyUserName
Member
What about them? Last season was all about the lunacy of Trump making it as far as he did and how Hillary was a much better, even if flawed choice.
About the humour being sub-par by the shows standards.
I don't care about the politics of the episodes, I'm not coming at it from that angle, the comedy is just unwatchable compared to just a few years ago now.
Moviebob wrote about a similar subject, at least as it pertains to recent South Park outings, but with much better writing than this piece: http://moviebob.blogspot.ca/2016/01/note-following-piece-is-possible-in.html
PHOENIXZERO
Member
IIRC one of his kids came out a year or two ago claiming Hayes was forced to quit by his cult.
ThisGuy
Member
Lmao, that's great.
Yeah at the time it was known he wasn't in good health and might have been manipulated.
Admiral Woofington
Member
http://www.cinemablend.com/televisi...uth-park-and-isaac-hayes-according-to-his-son
aka he was forced to quit because he didn't have the ability to make any decision. Matt and Trey found out years later and felt horribly shitty about the shit talking. As a fan I was pissed off and now super sad as I loved chef and for years believed what Matt and Trey thought.
Did they ever like, make an apology thing about that.
Because that's a shitty episode to leave in leave that character hanging on
Admiral Woofington
Member
I think they made an apology statement. The last episode with chef kills him off pathetically, but the episode doesn't end with them saying "MAN FUCK CHEF" it just ends with Kyle saying they should blame the club because they took away their dear friend. It's an episode made when they were really hurt but not entirely spiteful to not recognize they'd miss him.
Did who apologize for what? Matt and Trey never talked shit about Isaac Hayes after what happened. At least from what I've been exposed to(listened to all their episode commentaries and read interviews). I think they were taken aback by the idea that Hayes called them bigots but they said they never really believed he said that(and they were right). As for the episode, they didn't shit on Hayes at all. I thought the episode was a hilarious send-off for the character in reaction to a very sad and unfortunate situation. It wasn't really disrespectful towards Chef or Isaac and they make it a point in the episode to say that they don't blame him.
^Woofington's post nails the feeling the episode conveys. Sadness and shock at the circumstances but fond remembrance of the character and the friendship they had with Hayes. The idea of using audio clips from Chef in his prime is very meta in itself.
I have to agree with the others here. I think your interpretation is wrong. The dick, pussy, asshole speech was what Matt and Trey actually believed. They employ the same moral speech at the end of South Park episodes.
ThisGuy
Member
Is this a joke post I'm not picking up on? The movie shits on the main characters. They're not good people, the movie does not portray them as good people. Did you even watch the movie?
Admiral Woofington
Member
seriously in what world is team america the good guys lmao.
the fucking opening scene is them
and they're all "IT'S OK PEOPLE, WE'VE SAVED THE DAY!"
the fucking opening scene is them
destroying paris to kill 3 fucking terrorists
They are the dicks part of the speech. What is the point of the speech if it wasn't what Matt and Trey believe? I don't need to watch an entire movie to know that neocons justify their actions with "ends justify the means" angle.
ThisGuy
Member
Lmfao, you don't need to watch a movie to make an assessment? Neocons?
The angle is not the ends justify the means. You have no idea what you're talking about. Hahaha, you're hilarious.
Just because you were too young to notice doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Well please explain the point of the speech then. Help me understand the movie.
I'm a muslim and was actually kinda dissapointed that they didn't go all the way during Cartoon Wars (since they have actually did it during Super Best Friend)
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Why would you confront them? Are you under the impression that Angel of Death is pro-nazi?
True, but then at the end they do save the day and there's that whole dick speech so... uh... "both sides" I guess? Oh wait that's what Trey and Matt always fucking do, lol.
ThisGuy
Member
Why not watch the movie in its entirety, and think about which character gives the speech.
If you just watch the speech and nothing else, I can see why you would take your stance. But as admiral woof pointed out, the opening scene shows the 'good guys' are pieces of shit. If you agree with that, why would you take that speech as the creators opinion? Rather than it being representative of that characters beliefs?
A character they're making fun of, a character the audience is suppose to look down on. Like we do the rest of the movie because its obvious.
Its been years since I've seen this movie. But that is the general idea I had after viewing.
I still can't tell if you're serious lol.
Trump gets fucked to death. But they're both sides lmao.
I genuinely feel the toss light hearted jabs in the lefts directions. What's wrong with the left laughing at itself?
When the right is getting fucked to death? I genuinely do not understand peoples grievances with the show poking fun at everyone.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's been many years since I watched the movie and FWIW I found it hilarious at the time (and less funny on a re-watch, weirdly enough). But even if you say the dicks and assholes allegory is just espousing the character' beliefs and not the creators', this is kind of undermined by that character being essentially "proven right" by the plot.
So it seems that the point here is that yes, rah-rah US militarism is stupid and goes too far, but it's still a necessary evil. Or just more "both sides are bad" like they always do.
ThisGuy
Member
The main characters represent America, an unstoppable global force, that police the world. Why would they lose? When the point of the movie is to criticize those aspects of America?
Let me add, winning does not mean right. Why would you believe that? It parallels pretty well with reality. America beat the native Americans and won, doesn't prove we were right. But that statement might be deviating from your point.
I rewatched it years ago, it doesn't hold up in the comedy. But for the time, it was spot on.
timetokill
Banned
They did go all the way, Comedy Central censored it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...tral-censors-South-Park-Mohammed-episode.html