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Space: The Final Frontier
- Thread starter Windu
- Start date
Right, because the lesson we can learn through dwelling on the moon for extended periods of time with the benefit of being close enough that rescue operations aren't utterly unfeasible isn't reason enough. The fact that the farside is the perfect location for a lot of radio astronomy that needs to be isolated from our noise by a couple thousand kilometres of rock isn't reason enough. The fact that it's right fucking there isn't reason enough...Blyss said:
We don't have the infrastructure in place to perform cost effective manned exploration of our solar system, and the first step in building that infrastructure will come when we have a permanent presence on the moon.
You want us to run before we can crawl.
It's the other way around - manned colonies etc. are much more costly than these unmanned explorations. We don't really need manned exploration as of yet as well. With the tools we have at hand, we're better off sending unmanned missions. We can learn a lot from these, as well as test new technologies through these missions, before we send out people to 'do stuff'.Sir Fragula said:
I just think that we're at the point where without serious incentive our technology in this field just isn't progressing. Discoveries made by robots don't inspire people to allow politicians to fund this; Human exploration does. All the probes we've sent aren't worth a single lunar outpost which would say: Humanity is here and is staying here.msv said:
Cool videos on universal scale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_RqlTi6wGY
Also, just as a heads up Borders is having some kind of sale on space/astronomy books. They had a stand thing in the middle of the store with a bunch of great books for really dirt cheap. I snagged some today (most about 10 bucks - the big one was 20)
This book is MASSIVE.
And it also has some really beautiful high resolution pictures and great information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_RqlTi6wGY
Also, just as a heads up Borders is having some kind of sale on space/astronomy books. They had a stand thing in the middle of the store with a bunch of great books for really dirt cheap. I snagged some today (most about 10 bucks - the big one was 20)
This book is MASSIVE.
And it also has some really beautiful high resolution pictures and great information.
I've been doing some light e-reading on the universe's dark ages, fascinating stuff. One question I have is if there's a really accessible timeline out there, something that would tell me roughly how long after the BB the first stars began to shine, stuff like that?
The stuff I've been looking at isn't very readable, what with the at times arbitrary counting up and down and the prolific scientific notation.
The stuff I've been looking at isn't very readable, what with the at times arbitrary counting up and down and the prolific scientific notation.
kkaabboomm
Member
Lucky Forward said:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10583686
Yup.
We'll probably be back soon enough if recent events are any indication.
It's sad, but nothing will finally shut the conspiracy theory nuts up once and for all. They'll come up with shit like "NASA doctored the images", or "NASA planted everything on the Moon to cover it up". It doesn't really matter, unfortunately. The Moon landing was all a big government (nobody seems to suspect the scientists or engineers involved) conspiracy!Lucky Forward said:
Right now, we absolutely have the best evidence sitting around at NASA that we went to the Moon. Hundreds of kilos of moon rock. There have been plenty of peer reviewed papers from multiple institutions around the world that can verify that, as well. So, assuming the theorists even believe the science, where did the moon rocks come from? I'm sure you can dream up some answers for that one.
Crazymoogle
Member
Yoboman said:
A whollllllle lot of different reasons. But here's a few:
Economy: Provided we spend the money to get there, and then the money to build something - all far more expensive than the ISS has ever been - what can we do to make the money back? Astronomy doesn't pay the bills. What might is Helium-3 mining, but we need to get a proof of concept fusion reactor working on earth first, and that could be 20-50 years from now.
Contamination: Moondust is...bad. Really bad. It seems to be great at getting into things it shouldn't, and is pretty toxic to breathe in. And that's ignoring the construction work needed to shield from the kind of radiation hitting the astronauts over what would have to be long-term (months) stays.
Transport: Going back to something I dismissed...we would need a way to put thousands of tons of equipment on the moon, not just 3 astronauts and a buggy. Conventional rockets are incredibly expensive, risky, and carry most of the weight in sheer fuel. Nuclear...well...you know the issue there.
Scientists once suggested using small nuclear blasts to boost a rocket into orbit - there's science behind it beyond the exciting early times of space exploration - but even if they could make it minimal risk, the politics are unbelievably enormous.
No, I'm sorry. The answer we were looking for was Antarctica.Windu said:
what we really need to spur developments and exploration into space is a war in space.
all that money being wasted on fighting on earth gets funnelled into fighting in space.
if we win, space technology will have made leaps and bounds. it'd be like a 20-30 year jump in just 5 years.
this is of course assuming we beat the enemy...
all that money being wasted on fighting on earth gets funnelled into fighting in space.
if we win, space technology will have made leaps and bounds. it'd be like a 20-30 year jump in just 5 years.
this is of course assuming we beat the enemy...
MrTroubleMaker
Member
that was cool, thanks!Koshiro said:
Yeah I figured, but realistically (lol) the likelihood of any Earth country building something in space without the world knowing is almost nil! It'd probably get shot down before it even began.Scrow said:i took special care not to say aliens were the enemy
edit: see, pringles knows what i'm talking about.
Hence, aliens are the only feasible (lol) option.
Ahem. Back to your real space talk.
Scrow said:
If it doesn't get funded, it has to come down. The ISS needs constant repairs to stay where it is and stay safe. If there are no funds, the chances of killing the crew or having an accidental re-entry steadily increase, so it has to come down safely.
As for the non-U.S. portions, I assume they'd be de-coupled.
Honestly, though, this sounds like a fairly common NASA move to get the funding extended.
The same guy who said he'd de-orbit it also said:
But if there's no money, there's no real choice. It's either bring it down safely or wait for a disaster.
Crazymoogle
Member
besada said:
Or get really ballsy, attach some rockets and aim it for Moon Orbit. Which would be pretty cool, somewhat unlikely, but a hell of a science lesson.
But you're absolutely right, it cannot simply stay in orbit.
http://www.fanboy.com/2009/07/dark-age-of-space-exploration.html
The Dark Age of Manned Space Exploration: 1969-2009
Above: The rusting hulk of a Saturn V rocket (now under restoration)
is a harsh reminder of a lost golden age of manned space exploration.
As a child who spent most of his life after the Apollo project its my humble opinion that over the last 40 years weve been living a micro-dark age of space exploration. To me the 40th Anniversary of Apollo isnt a cause for celebration, but is in fact a funeral for NASA which has been a shadow of its former self.
Like the golden age of television the space race which lasted from 1957 with Sputnik until 1969 with the lunar landings represent a lost which is rusting into mythology. And what are the signs of a dark age? Well if you look at the original dark ages they followed the collapse of the Roman Empire but what disappeared with Rome was technology (things as simple as clean water) and literacy itself.
My first wake up call to the fact that were living n a dark age is that its currently predicted that it will take NASA years to return to the moon. In fact chances are pretty good that China will make it there first without any help before the United States is up and running. What makes this depressing to me is that from Kennedys 1962 speech to the Apollo landing was done in less than eight years and most of that technology had to be invented from scratch! In theory we should be able to look back at that 40 year old technology, rebuild the same damn rockets within two or three years at the most and be walking on the moon by 2011 at the very latest.
Although at heart Ive always known that we were going backwards the proof is the ancient space shuttle fleet itself. The shuttle program dates to the disco era, and since that time weve never replaced it. Weve watched two shuttle crews pay the ultimate price the first time I could understand it, but the second time leaves me baffled. But even more baffling is why the shuttle was never replaced over ten years ago. As much as Id love to blame one party or another weve had Presidents from both sides of the asile who only seem to notice NASA when something is going wrong.
Above: Former President Lyndon B. Johnson among the spectators at
the launch of Apollo 11, which lifted off from Pad 39A at Kennedy
Space Center at 9:32 am EDT on July 16, 1969.
In fact I hate to say it but the last President who gave a damn about NASA was Lyndon Johnson who was in office 40 years ago today. Due to Vietnam Johnson left behind a mixed legacy, but from where I sit today in the 21st Century he represents a lost age when America dared to do something that hadnt been done before. And what makes me sad is that were still talking in terms of maybe getting to the moon, but the reality is that we shouldnt be settling for anything less than going to Mars.
So who is to blame for this dark age that were now living in? Well I have to say that as Americans we all are well stand in line for the latest Star Trek film, but how many amongst us has taken just a few minutes to write your local congressperson to demand that NASAs budget be tripled? We all fall for all of the excuses that there are so many other things to do, well from my point of view everything weve done for the last 40 years of government expenditure has been flushed down the toilet over time. The R&D provided by NASA is one of the few budgetary items that earns interest in tech spin-offs.
Now this isnt to say that there havent been some amazing achievements in astronomy during the last 40 years in fact its safe to say that every planet weve discovered outside our solar system is a recent achievement. Although to me thats all the more of an argument why we should be supporting a manned space exploration program: Its not enough to see the stars, but youve got to reach for them.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Just so you know, SpaceX just put into orbit a satellite on top of a Falcon 1.
It was the fifth Falcon 1 launch and it has become the first commercial payload put into orbit by a privately built and developed rocket.
Falcon 9 is scheduled for later this year. With a bit of luck these guys will soon be able to take over Shuttle's duties and free up a sizeable chunk of NASA's budget.
It was the fifth Falcon 1 launch and it has become the first commercial payload put into orbit by a privately built and developed rocket.
Falcon 9 is scheduled for later this year. With a bit of luck these guys will soon be able to take over Shuttle's duties and free up a sizeable chunk of NASA's budget.
kkaabboomm
Member
Bitmap Frogs said:
i know. i came in here to post this. and then tonight, the shuttle is 'hopefully' supposed to launch. we'll see if the weather holds. it's a good day when a private company successfully launches its first commercial payload. it's a good day when NASA launches the shuttle. it's an even better day if both happen on the same day, even half a world apart.
The Librarian
Banned
It should be 1972-2009. We went back to the Moon six more times if I recall correctly between 1969-1972.Scrow said:
...
Which kind of makes the last forty years even more pathetic looking.
There's a space research think tank called "The Aerospace Technology Working Group (ATWG), instituted by NASA Administrator Richard Truly in 1990 as an independent body to work future planning for the nations space efforts." I recommend reading the status report they issued in February with Buzz Aldrin, it has a lot to say, entitled Sustainable Space Exploration and Space Development - A Unified Strategic Vision
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=30702
Statements of General:
"(2) A vision of space exploration that is fundamentally based on the concurrent development of an affordable LEO (Low Earth Orbit) space-transportation infrastructure that will not only allow sustainable space exploration endeavors beyond low earth orbit, but more importantly, enable the rapid human economic and commercial expansion into the Earth-moon system.
(3) Such a vision of space exploration and space-based economic development must be achieved and supported by the commercial and private sectors, along with broad international participation, using human collaborative endeavors in space as a strong catalyst or mutual bond for fostering world peace, thus collectively resolving humanity's profound energy and climate change challenges.
(4) Recognizing the distinctive strategic goals and objectives in both aspects of space exploration (VSE) and space development (VSD) activities. Therefore, restructuring and realignment of NASA's role is necessary for maximizing its potential in achieving technology R&D and space exploration objectives, whereas a separate government entity is needed in promoting economic-infrastructure achievement in space. "
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=30702
Statements of General:
"(2) A vision of space exploration that is fundamentally based on the concurrent development of an affordable LEO (Low Earth Orbit) space-transportation infrastructure that will not only allow sustainable space exploration endeavors beyond low earth orbit, but more importantly, enable the rapid human economic and commercial expansion into the Earth-moon system.
(3) Such a vision of space exploration and space-based economic development must be achieved and supported by the commercial and private sectors, along with broad international participation, using human collaborative endeavors in space as a strong catalyst or mutual bond for fostering world peace, thus collectively resolving humanity's profound energy and climate change challenges.
(4) Recognizing the distinctive strategic goals and objectives in both aspects of space exploration (VSE) and space development (VSD) activities. Therefore, restructuring and realignment of NASA's role is necessary for maximizing its potential in achieving technology R&D and space exploration objectives, whereas a separate government entity is needed in promoting economic-infrastructure achievement in space. "
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
kkaabboomm said:
I hear they've decided to pospone today's attempt and have another go at it tomorrow.
As for SpaceX, I am really happy. There's been a shitload of backlash directed towards them because it's taken six years for the company to acquire the ability to deliver payloads but at least they aren't surviving anymore outta Musk's personal wallet.
The Falcon 9 however is the real deal as far as the so-called "star trek lobby" is concerned and things don't scale linearly from Falcon 1 size to Falcon 9 size, so it's still wait and see.
Coincidentally, today the Mars 500 crew has emerged from the simulator... maybe the stars are properly aligned today
kkaabboomm
Member
Bitmap Frogs said:I hear they've decided to pospone today's attempt and have another go at it tomorrow.
As for SpaceX, I am really happy. There's been a shitload of backlash directed towards them because it's taken six years for the company to acquire the ability to deliver payloads but at least they aren't surviving anymore outta Musk's personal wallet.
The Falcon 9 however is the real deal as far as the so-called "star trek lobby" is concerned and things don't scale linearly from Falcon 1 size to Falcon 9 size, so it's still wait and see.
Coincidentally, today the Mars 500 crew has emerged from the simulator... maybe the stars are properly aligned today
yeah i was wrong. the shuttle launch is tomorrow.
but also, the falcon 9 is basically 9 falcon1 engines all tied together and ready to go, if i'm not mistaken. i know there is more to it, but yeah.
falcon9's launch is set for 'later this year' right?
Has anyone else read this?
I just got done with it and I found it pretty interesting. The stuff these guys have done to keep SETI going...
There is also a lot of intelligent speculation towards the end as to what aliens may really be like.. in terms of goals, appearance, chemical make-up, etc. It's interesting to note that we have been listening to the galaxy for over 40 years and have only covered .000005% of it(I think that is what the number was, maybe give or take one zero).
I just got done with it and I found it pretty interesting. The stuff these guys have done to keep SETI going...
There is also a lot of intelligent speculation towards the end as to what aliens may really be like.. in terms of goals, appearance, chemical make-up, etc. It's interesting to note that we have been listening to the galaxy for over 40 years and have only covered .000005% of it(I think that is what the number was, maybe give or take one zero).
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
kkaabboomm said:
Indeed it is but going by what I hear about it from people more versed in the field, things aren't that easy - just like higher powered versions of the same car will require replacing certain parts because of the additional wear; bigger rocket engines develop their own set of issues.
Anyways aye, it's set for later this year.