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Space: The Final Frontier

T

The Librarian

Banned
wolfmat said:
No. Gravitational force is tied to weight (it is proportional to the body mass). The sun thus exerts a lot more gravitational force. What keeps Earth from immediately falling into the sun is the vast distance, and the circular path it has stabilized on. It's circling the drain though, so to say.

Edit: Moreover, the gravitational effect is reduced with the square of the distance with respect to mass. So since the sun is as far from Earth as Earth is from the sun, and the sun is much more weighty, it wins.
Click to expand...

I had always thought that one of the reasons Earth doesn't smack into the sun is because the sun isn't stationary as well – it's in its own orbit, circling the galactic core. Is that a misconception?
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Dax01 said:
I had always thought that one of the reasons Earth doesn't smack into the sun is because the sun isn't stationary as well – it's in its own orbit, circling the galactic core. Is that a misconception?
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The sun isn't stationary, but the influence of the galactic core is effectively irrelevant to our high-frequency orbiting of this star. Again, distance squared. The center of the galaxy is really far away.

Maybe I'm wrong. I suppose one could do research on this.
 
Gorgon

Gorgon

Member
Woorloog said:
Indeed.

BTW, people might find this interesting: http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/Xenopsychology.htm
Click to expand...

It's interesting. Didn't find much new insight, though. But then again, I have all Sociobiology books by Wilson and I am a long time Astrobiology "follower", so much of what is there is old news (his book is pretty old too!). But I think for many people it may be quite interesting. I found the part about the hypnosis and time experiments to be especially interesting.

Thanks for the link.
 
S

SystemShock2

Member
birdcity said:
Yeah, it definitely puts things into perspective. We are truly insignificant. But someone has to start the expedition. We're just the forefathers of what will come. It's a shame we probably won't be around when they make contact, but it's nice to know you're still a part of it.

Stephen Hawking has an interesting opinion on the subject of sending direct messages into space with the intent of contacting extraterrestrial life. He believes we should "lay low" given our species' track record of coming into contact with other groups with less technology/sophistication. He believes it's a very foolish move to directly attempt to make contact with any ET.

Personally, I'm torn on the subject. He makes a very valid point, given history. However, I'd like to think that if there are other civilizations out there and have the technology to travel faster than light/wormholes/etc, then they are MUCH MUCH older than our species, and to survive that long I would like to think they have evolved past petty wars and aggression.

It's an interesting philosophical debate for sure!
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I'd like to think the same way. It would be kinda shitty if we're advancing toward evil. I think that goodness is what we are going to tend toward over the years, and hopefully this is just how life works.
 
Gorgon

Gorgon

Member
SystemShock2 said:
I'd like to think the same way. It would be kinda shitty if we're advancing toward evil. I think that goodness is what we are going to tend toward over the years, and hopefully this is just how life works.
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Yes, but the problem is that what we consider in general "evil" may not necessarily be considered evil by another inteligent (alien) species.

But then again I think Hawking doesn't have much of a case.
 
M

Maklershed

Member
Some good news ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17225127

A Nasa spacecraft has detected oxygen around one of Saturn's icy moons, Dione. The discovery supports a theory that suggests all of the moons near Saturn and Jupiter might have oxygen around them. Researchers say that their finding increases the likelihood of finding the ingredients for life on one of the moons orbiting gas giants. The study has been published in Geophysical Research Letters.

According to co-author Andrew Coates of University College London, Dione has no liquid water and so does not have the conditions to support life. But it is possible that other moons of Jupiter and Saturn do.
 
X

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
Honestly, if we've got to prioritize NASAs budget, I'd rather they focus on getting some probes to the moons of Saturn rather than getting a manned mission to Mars right now. The prospects of what we might find are too exciting.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
The thing that excites me is that the prospect of finding extra-terrestrial life in THIS solar system is STILL a possibility! I remember when most people thought that chance was all but zero.

I mean, it's still probably near zero, but still. Exciting.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Did you guys catch NDGT on NPR/Science Friday a few days ago? Good segment, though not particularly new or enlightening if you follow him. Of particular note was his take on politics, Newt Gingrich, and Barack Obama. He didn't really say what I expected.
 
A

AAequal

Banned
Should There Be A New Space Race? Good article by Hank Campbell

In 1957, when the USSR launched Sputnik, it began a new era in the Cold War. The Race to Space. Senator Lyndon Johnson worried the commies could rain nuclear bombs down on us from the high ground, making him the perfect guy to run NASA and because it was a military concern it got funded. Only later it became a human exploration issue and much later became a science one.

Since then, The Race To X argument is conveniently trotted out for whatever new plan a special interest has to get some taxpayer funding. Last year, Nobel Laureate and Energy Secretary Dr. Steven Chu said American taxpayers had to spend billions subsidizing cheap solar panels or America would lose The Race to Build Cheap Solar Panels to the communists. It was the 1950s all over again.

How can America win a low-end race against a communist country with a built-in peasant class and no environmental controls? Apple had zero interest in manufacturing its products in the United States, Chairman Steve Jobs was blunt to the point of being smug in declaring that those jobs were never going to be in America - the hidden subtext was that, if the jobs were in China, Apple could speak out about human rights, child labor and environmental issues yet do nothing. If those issues happened in America it couldn't be ignored but no one will issue a boycott over Chinese labor because they want an iPad for 600 bucks a lot more than they want safe working conditions for people in another country. Solar power is no different. If you want panels built domestically, they can't be cheap and that means people will not buy them without huge subsidies. It may be better to let the Chinese make those just like they make iPads.

So it also may be with future space exploration. Is this a 'race' and if so, do we need to win it? Once a year, someone with a Big Idea trots out the claim that if we don't invest billions in the Big Idea, America will "fall behind". If you are reading this and chuckle when the military says that to justify a rail gun, you can imagine how people outside government science feel about giant projects like the LHC or the James Webb Telescope or a colony on the Moon. It's cool and maybe it should be sold that way - but it shouldn't be sold as essential for science. By this time next year, European politicians in a recessionary economy are going to talk to people running the LHC and find out there is no Higgs boson. They will say, "You told us to build this because we would find this God Particle thing. Now you say it does not exist?" and the reply will be "In science, what we do not learn is important too" and then politicians will shake their heads and remind scientists not having a God Particle for $12 billion is not superior to not having one for nothing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson is being a good advocate for space travel when he insists we are in a race with the Chinese to have a colony on the Moon but if the only politician who shares your belief is Newt Gingrich, is that a solid case? Ross Pomery in RealClearScience thinks so, writing

No, the real reason why America should join in the upcoming space race is because we can't afford not to. Americans don't sit on the sidelines; we lead. We already do this militarily, so why shouldn't we do it in space?

Indeed, the United States has an opportunity to turn the next space race into the most important example of international cooperation the world has ever seen.
Click to expand...

Not very convincing from either of them if your interest is actual science and not science funding advocacy or a hope for world peace. It is instead philosophical, maybe even nationalistic. Why can't the Chinese be an important example of cooperation instead of us? We also were told we could not afford not to build the LHC but it turns out we absolutely could afford to not discover that the Higgs Boson does not exist. It isn't like we won't add leadership and brains and even some money but why do we have to be the leader? The most important example of international cooperation should be the UN but Pomery is right for forgetting that expensive, irrelevant boondoggle. Being a leader and even hosting it in the US did nothing much for anyone and just left New York City with a bunch of unpaid parking tickets they can never collect on because of 'diplomatic immunity'.
Imagine what could be accomplished if the world's space superpowers pooled their resources to build an international space colony on the moon? The advancements for science and technology would surely be significant
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This is the reason why the domestic space program has collapsed. Even politicians no longer regard it as a science endeavor - and they are right, it is a tough sell from a science perspective and looks like more of a job works program. We do far more science with unmanned missions than we ever accomplished with the Space Shuttle. Unmanned missions are cheaper and safer. It really is a stretch to fairly attribute much in the way of science or technology at all to the space program - you have to get second order and try to give them credits for things like MRI. It's like claiming we should spend trillions of dollars on useless research because one time the government did not know what to do with the Internet for 25 years and a guy at CERN figured he might as well share some pictures with his friends.

I love races. I grew up with the space program and I can name all seven Mercury astronauts without blinking. I watched a Moon launch and a Skylab and two shuttle launches in person. I can be as jingoistic as anyone about how great America is. But if China wants to spend the money to put a colony on the Moon 'for all mankind' and 'world peace' why should we turn it into a Space Race?
Click to expand...
 
E

endre

Member
Is there a program in which one can view the position of the planets in real time and 3D? Like watching the entire solar system from above with the planets in their actual position.

Celestia maybe?
 
E

endre

Member
OkiDoki. Already checked what I wanted in Celestia, but if this is that awesome space program that had its own thread i'm on it.

EDIT: I noticed Venus is incredible tonight. Jupiter as well, and after seeing the moon and Mars in Stellarium, i was curious about orbit positions and if I got it correct on my paper sketch.

 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
m4ZJP.jpg


probably shopped but it looks awesome anyway
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Holy crap that's beautiful, and yeah it's likely shopped. Yes yes, I've seen a few photoshops in my day, and of course, I can tell from the pixels...but seriously. The cutoff at the clouds is telling, as is the clarity and closeness. I don't believe a non-military craft would be allowed that close. And isn't there a little trail that comes out of the top of the main fuselage?
 
C

Casp0r

Banned
Kinyou said:
It's like standing in a desert and whispering "hello?"
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More like slightly vibrating a single sand grain in the middle of the desert.

Face it nerds, we'll never contact alien life forms. That stupid God Particle will be found and all our physical laws will be set in stone, ruling out any form of FTL travel and completely ruling out the chance of finding intelligent life else where.

We are stuck here in this world. We should focus more on looking after it, than day dreaming about creating and moving to new worlds. Earth is our habitat and we need need to sustain it, any other planet reachable will just be an alien, harsh and unforgiving environment.
 
H

HollovVpo1nt

Banned
Space baffles me. I just can't comprehend it. Does it end somewhere? Is there a wall? Whata behind that wall? So, many, questions!

It saddens me I won't be be around when the day comes that interplanetary travel will be as common as a flight :( If that day ever comes..
 
X

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
Casp0r said:
More like slightly vibrating a single sand grain in the middle of the desert.

Face it nerds, we'll never contact alien life forms. That stupid God Particle will be found and all our physical laws will be set in stone, ruling out any form of FTL travel and completely ruling out the chance of finding intelligent life else where.
Click to expand...

We may never contact any intelligent alien life forms (at least in our lifetime), but I can't rule out an intelligent alien life form contacting or visiting us.

We are stuck here in this world. We should focus more on looking after it, than day dreaming about creating and moving to new worlds. Earth is our habitat and we need need to sustain it, any other planet reachable will just be an alien, harsh and unforgiving environment.
Click to expand...
I think we're more than capable of pursuing both of these things at the same time.
 
E

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
Casp0r said:
We are stuck here in this world. We should focus more on looking after it, than day dreaming about creating and moving to new worlds. Earth is our habitat and we need need to sustain it, any other planet reachable will just be an alien, harsh and unforgiving environment.
Click to expand...

If you're speaking about manned space flight, and space exploration, then that's not entirely the point. One of the main benefits of future space travel isn't in discovering new worlds (we'll do that through satellite most likely, as we are now), it's in how it will benefit us here on Earth (new technologies, more resources, valuable data, etc, etc..). Sure people like to dream up about traveling to new worlds, but what we're doing right now is pretty practical.
 
L

Lucky Forward

Member
HollovVpo1nt said:
Space baffles me. I just can't comprehend it. Does it end somewhere? Is there a wall? Whata behind that wall? So, many, questions!
Click to expand...

"Well, I don't really think that the end can be assessed as of itself as being the end because what does the end feel like? It's like saying when you try to extrapolate the end of the universe, you say, if the universe is indeed infinite, then how - what does that mean? How far is all the way, and then if it stops, what's stopping it, and what's behind what's stopping it? So, what's the end, you know, is my question to you."

-- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
 
E

Elfforkusu

Member
Casp0r said:
More like slightly vibrating a single sand grain in the middle of the desert.

Face it nerds, we'll never contact alien life forms. That stupid God Particle will be found and all our physical laws will be set in stone, ruling out any form of FTL travel and completely ruling out the chance of finding intelligent life else where.

We are stuck here in this world. We should focus more on looking after it, than day dreaming about creating and moving to new worlds. Earth is our habitat and we need need to sustain it, any other planet reachable will just be an alien, harsh and unforgiving environment.
Click to expand...
We have historical records for less than 10,000 years of human civilization. How far have we come? Who are you to say that we've discovered everything about how the universe works, that the next 10,000 years won't result in a civilization as alien as the ancient Egyptians would find ours?

And in any case, you don't need FTL to colonize space. All you need is self-sufficiency.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Casp0r said:
More like slightly vibrating a single sand grain in the middle of the desert.

Face it nerds, we'll never contact alien life forms. That stupid God Particle will be found and all our physical laws will be set in stone, ruling out any form of FTL travel and completely ruling out the chance of finding intelligent life else where.

We are stuck here in this world. We should focus more on looking after it, than day dreaming about creating and moving to new worlds. Earth is our habitat and we need need to sustain it, any other planet reachable will just be an alien, harsh and unforgiving environment.
Click to expand...

There is more than a grain of truth to this post. But your hopelessness won't stop us from dreaming, or make humanity quit trying.
 
S

Slightly Live

Dirty tag dodger
PantherLotus said:
There is more than a grain of truth to this post. But your hopelessness won't stop us from dreaming, or make humanity quit trying.
Click to expand...

We should strive to ensure sustainability here on this planet no matter what endeavors we face in future but space is a boundless frontier and we, at the very core of our being, are explorers and day dreamers.

We may never have a conversation with ET or a fight for our lives against a Xenomorph but we can and should reach out beyond this little ball of rock. We don't need to break the light barrier to improve our ability to send robots out into space to pave the way for human settlers or to develop self-sustaining generational ships to send our children to distant worlds.

Just as we have a pressing need to sustain this planet, we have a pressing need to sustain ourselves. At any moment, on a cosmological scale, we face extinction. More than 99% of all the species to walk, crawl on or even grow on this planet is gone. The natural world around us is oblivious to our wants and needs. A ball of rock crashing into our planet doesn't think of our children or our dreams and it doesn't care if we recycle or not.

We need to take care of the planet today and tomorrow but we also need to take care of ourselves today and tomorrow. That means day dreaming. That means exploring. And never giving up.
 
6

6.8

Member
Maklershed said:
This is amazing and kind of depressing. It makes me think that maybe SETI isn't as useful as I thought it was ...

(click for large version)


Click to expand...

It's kind of weird that we only cover a small area of a distant galaxy. But is it proof that there is a trans galactic wormhole "nearby"?
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
ThaneKrios said:
Neil dGrasse Tyson - We Stopped Dreaming (Episode 1): http://youtu.be/Fl07UfRkPas
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Great video. I'm not sure anything will ever match the Sagan Series premier video with the music from lost, detailing the inevitability of our evolutionary expansion to the stars, and the wonder that one day our progeny will look back to that pale blue dot and wonder how we got past this terrible moment in history. Chills just thinking about it.
 
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