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[Toma]

Just join the GAF steam group. You can quickly see who's been playing.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/neogaf

I already am but its a bit tricky to click through x pages and read everyones status for what he is playing. Thats why I usually ask in these threads

Anyway, some scores to beat if people dont want me to be on their friends list

World 1- Level 1

Spoiler

131 cycles - 9 symbols

World 1- Level 2

Spoiler

118 cycles - 8 symbols

World 1- Level 3

Spoiler

189 cycles - 20 symbols

World 1- Level 4

Spoiler

140 cycles - 16 symbols

World 1- Level 5

Spoiler

138 cycles - 16 symbols

World 1- Level 6

Spoiler

59 cycles - 9 symbols

World 2 - Level 1

Spoiler

135 cycles - 12 symbols

World 2 - Level 2

Spoiler

179 cycles - 15 symbols

Its really engaging that going for being successful in both highscores (no ideas about reactors yet) you need to think differently and solve the puzzle in a different way.

 

[Toma]

Ah oh god. The first level of world three is making me more problems than expected after feeling like a hero after finishing the last one in world 2

Probably thinking too complicated for that one, but ah, good enough reason for a chemistry break.

This game is addicting >_>

 

[flowsnake]

Stuck on the first level with a recycler. I'm struggling to work out how to deal with the 25% N and 75% O and pass equal amounts to the next reactor.

Edit: Now that I think about it more, you can

Spoiler

have more than two paths of the same colour that grab N2 or O2 because they have two atoms, so maybe I can get it to dump two thirds of the oxygens by making three.

Actually I did it a simpler way, and realized how to make OR gates, heh.

 

[Toma]

Okay, this is just... incredible.

I started of playing the game and mastered the first level in the way the game tutored me.

2 hours later I came back and was able to improve it because of my better skills.

Again 6 hours later I was taking another look at it and further improved myself... now my highscore for the first level is (dont check the spoiler if you have not played the game yet, try to improve on your own pace)

Spoiler

6 symbols and 57 cycles

, which wasnt even remotely thinkable yesterday.

This game is soooo good when it comes to applying you knowledge, improving and refining. I know that there must be an end somewhere regarding to how much you can improve these solutions, but the sole fact that at the different stages my skill in this game was, I was able to come up with completely different solutions is just... blowing my mind.

Seriously, this game is the best game I've ever encountered when it comes to measuring your logic. The first level alone would be simple enough to put into an IQ test and still have quite a lot of range to measure how much people can refine their solution.

When playing just now I needed to think of Layton as a game which sort of measures your problem solving capabilities by giving you puzzles with different set of rules each time. This is sort of the opposite, by giving you the same set of rules and constantly challenging you with more intricate "levels". This is not unlike other games (like Tetris or whatever) but it rather has a sort of "Highscore" game appeal in that you want to play it again and again to improve yourself, but with the difference that its not relying on your maneuverability and dexterity, but rather your problem solving capabilities.

This game is not about atoms and molecules, its about logic. Everyone who likes to challenge his mind should buy and play this game. I agree that the introduction to this game is a bit strange but it clicks after the second or third level. And it completely blows my mind that most people who play the demo to see what they might be getting themselves into are not even scratching the surface in terms of what they might be able to pull of, and that within the bloody first level.

As for the longevity of this game:

I am currently in World 3 of 9 (each consisting of 5-7 levels) and played for about 9 hours. The levels get progressively more intricate so that the last level I was able to finish took me just about 90 minutes.

*goes off to post this in the steam thread to convince more people to buy this game*

Edit: On another note: Managed to finish the first challenge! Yay!

 

[mrklaw]

had some problems with the game freezing on me (steam version). Apparantly seems to be a problem with 69xx series graphics cards. Forcing Vsync on in Catalyst seems to help. Hopefully they'll bring out a patch so I don't need to leave vsync on all the time.

Just started the third planet and its absolutely nuts! C2H2, having to interweave the colours because you can't loop, and getting it all in sync almost exploded my head but when you first step through your successful dry run at speed one, pausing at each critical step with the space bar just to check its going ok, and it works, is just so satisfying.

not sure my feeble mind can handle much more complexity though.

I honestly have no idea how people do it with fewer symbols. I suppose I could save a few syncs by careful measurement of the paths, but not sure what else could be done. Any tips there?

and how come sometimes the items take ages to appear? (in levels where your supply comes from a storage tank or another of your factories at least). Not having inputs appear when you ask for them just confuses me, and is forcing me to dry run things right at the beginning just to time them, in case it messes up my solution.

 

[Toma]

... pausing at each critical step with the space bar just to check its going ok....

And after 12 hours of playing, I learn of the space bar function.

I'd give you a hint on a certain level if you like. Just give me the level and your scores and I'll spoiler tag my solution if I got less cycles/symbols than you.

 

[vermadas]

and how come sometimes the items take ages to appear? (in levels where your supply comes from a storage tank or another of your factories at least). Not having inputs appear when you ask for them just confuses me, and is forcing me to dry run things right at the beginning just to time them, in case it messes up my solution.

The molecules have travel time. If you are in the zoomed out view and turn everything on, you can see it in action.

The waldos will wait on input until the corresponding molecule is available. Use syncs to make up for the fact your inputs may not arrive immediately.

 

[Toma]

And I would really advise to everyone to go back to the first levels, trying to improve your highscores there. You can get the basics of how to refine your engineering skills there when thinking about different ways to solve those levels. To learn these tricks is very hard to do in the later levels because you have lots of other stuff to take care of.
It also makes later levels generally a bit easier.

 

[mrklaw]

And after 12 hours of playing, I learn of the space bar function.

I'd give you a hint on a certain level if you like. Just give me the level and your scores and I'll spoiler tag my solution if I got less cycles/symbols than you.

thanks. last level on 2nd planet (1625 cycles, 57 symbols) , or first level on third planet (466 cycles, 44 symbols). Both starting to get complex so I overengineered them probably.

edit: got that last level down to 911/49

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I honestly have no idea how people do it with fewer symbols. I suppose I could save a few syncs by careful measurement of the paths, but not sure what else could be done. Any tips there?

Measuring paths is part of it. Another is clever reuse of symbols by having a path recross a symbol to use it another time.

thanks. last level on 2nd planet (1625 cycles, 57 symbols) , or first level on third planet (466 cycles, 44 symbols). Both starting to get complex so I overengineered them probably.

Yeah, there are some quick and easy ways to get more efficient on those. My first and only try on those are 1194/49 and 327/30 - I should redo those at some point and see how much more I can shave off.

EDIT: Just did a very quick edit to 3-1 and got it down to 308 cycles just by moving 2 symbols.

 

[Toma]

thanks. last level on 2nd planet (1625 cycles, 57 symbols) , or first level on third planet (466 cycles, 44 symbols). Both starting to get complex so I overengineered them probably.

First one on third world was tricky for me as well.
If that helps you for that one:

Spoiler

I almost always start with the bonders to get an impression of how the layout basically needs to look.
I thought the best way was to put them all above one another and the blue Waldo making two loops around these, starting with one C, adding the second C on the first loop itself and then having the red Waldo making two loops to get two H in place for the blue Waldo to pick them up.
For reference: 336 cycles, 36 symbols

I was better one at the last one in world 2 though:

Spoiler

43 symbols, 905 cycles:
You can make an easy double bonding bonding for the C and O, that should be too tricky.
In my case they make one C=O every 16 steps, but you can probably improve that. Just be careful that if you are very fast in the first assembly, the second one needs to be up to speed or the molecules will be stuck in between. I found those 16 steps for each C=O easy to work with.
For the second assembly, I again began by putting the bonders in a row (++++, horizontally) and then got the blue Waldo to take the C=O molecule to the bonders, where the red Waldo worked on adding the H in one loop. (Make sure that the first H is there before the C=O, then adding the C=O to the first H, while making your way to the second H on the red line, where the red Waldo takes over to finish.
This one works relatively fast, as its still pretty simple

Also, as soon as you finished a level, check whether you can make both Waldo lines smaller one one side. That way the lines get 2 shorter and most of the time you only need to rearrange the starting position slightly to get it to work again.

And yeah, lots of counting paths to measure everything up.

Edit: I would love to have a counter for how long the paths are, because not needing to count them would make a lot things more accessible.

 

[mrklaw]

ah, length affects cycles? I was just using more space to keep things readable.

And I didn't know you could cross lines with the same colour.. tried that and the line just changed direction. Maybe it was at a direction change point, will try on a straight part later. That'd simplify 3:1 a lot, I was doing bonds then sending each colour over to the opposing side to pick up more elements, would have been simpler using the same colours for that.

might redo both first two planets before continuing on, make sure I have a solid grasp of things and how to keep it efficient.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

ah, length affects cycles? I was just using more space to keep things readable.

And I didn't know you could cross lines with the same colour.. tried that and the line just changed direction. Maybe it was at a direction change point, will try on a straight part later. That'd simplify 3:1 a lot, I was doing bonds then sending each colour over to the opposing side to pick up more elements, would have been simpler using the same colours for that.

might redo both first two planets before continuing on, make sure I have a solid grasp of things and how to keep it efficient.

A cycle is equal to the length of time it takes a Waldo to move one square, so the longer the path the longer the cycles needed.

And yeah, you'll need to crossover at a square that doesn't already have a direction change if you don't want it to loop back.

 

[ElAlcesDiablo]

... now my highscore for the first level is (dont check the spoiler if you have not played the game yet, try to improve on your own pace)

Spoiler

6 symbols and 57 cycles

, which wasnt even remotely thinkable yesterday.

Slightly exceeded this

Spoiler

51 cycles

Sort of looks like there's still better on the leaderboard but it's hard to tell cos of the way it draws it. Can you pull up exact numbers anywhere?

Cool game anyway. Still only on 3rd planet too.

 

[Drkirby]

Right now I am just fooling around more then trying to do things as efficient as possible.

 

[mrklaw]

yes. Went back and redid the first level on planet two. Went from 275 cycles down to 118, and 17 symbols.

Mostly just removing space so its really compact (difficult to do at the beginning as you're focusing on the steps), equalising path lengths and realising I could move the start points of each waldo to avoid long routes. I also just noticed that red can input and output for blue too, by right clicking. That'll help

I find the solution quite difficult to scan as its so squashed in, but the results are good.
edit: 2-2 went from 315/29 to 158/20 on my second try

 

[epmode]

One of the most important things to know for efficiency is that if the two waldos hit instructions at the same time, red will always go first. I don't believe that game ever lets on that this happens (at least it doesn't through the third planet) and I just assumed it was random or unreliable.

SO USEFUL

 

[mrklaw]

question on the last level of planet 2:

when you do an 'in', the delay is the number of pipeline segments from the storage tanks to the factory right? And the 'O' factory is set back a block from the 'C' factory. Should I try and get the source materials to the factory at the same time, as otherwise there is a stagger for only the first element. So if I have equal length red/blue cycles for efficiency, it'l be out of sync due to my 'O' arriving late, meaning I'll need a couple of syncs that I'd like to avoid. Just can't work out how to get them arriving at the same time..


also, are the graphs for past engineers disconnected? i.e the distribution of cycles is probably different people to the distribution of symbols? If you do fast you might use a lot of symbols - the graph doesn't really tell you that.

 

[Toma]

also, are the graphs for past engineers disconnected? i.e the distribution of cycles is probably different people to the distribution of symbols? If you do fast you might use a lot of symbols - the graph doesn't really tell you that.

This is actually pretty clever because it encourages multiple playstyles. Basically you can set 3 different highscores in certain levels, all of which require a different method based on each level.
Basically triple the levels, I love it

Oh and a method which was perfect for doing a certain highscore in level A doesnt necessarily need to be perfect for the next level for the same highscore. Its cool that you dont really need to know all tricks, but if you want to you can to improve all scores on a level.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

They weren't kidding when they said the difficulty really ramps up in world 4 when the recycling plants appear. I believe I'm on 4-4, I'm likely going to brute-force something inefficient just to get past for now.

 

[Clever Pun]

Just finished world 2 and having a blast so far. I think I'm already friends with Toma, but are there any other gaffers who want to share their steam names? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post it here.

 

[Traumahound]

Steam id: Traumahound. I'd love to fill out my leaderboard. Now I just need to find more time to play...

 

[Davidion]

Steam ID: Davidion.

The training starts easy enough, and then when the bonding hits you realize how hard the game could be, and THEN you get to the reactors...

I'm looking forward to the challenge, the game feels quite unique in its concept and seems to be really well executed.

 

[Clever Pun]

cool, added both of you!

I just replayed the first two stages, and I have no idea how Toma has so few cycles! At least I was able to improve mine a little bit, though.

 

[Davidion]

Also, I'd like to note this game's really well done yet hilariously and inappropriately epic soundtrack.

 

[Diseased Yak]

Just bought it, add me on Steam if you want.

ID = Diseased Yak

 

[XiaNaphryz]

SteamID's the same as my GAF name if anyone's interested.

 

[flowsnake]

Uh oh, fusion lasers combined with sensors are going to make this so complicated later on, I just know it.

 

[mrklaw]

Just join the GAF steam group. You can quickly see who's been playing.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/neogaf

I do that, but is there any way of cross referencing it by game? Either in the community area, or from the game?

 

[Toma]

cool, added both of you!

I just replayed the first two stages, and I have no idea how Toma has so few cycles! At least I was able to improve mine a little bit, though.

You need to think two dimensional. Twice!

 

[Diseased Yak]

Holy shit this game's awesome!

I'm stuck though, how in the fuck am I supposed to bond two atoms of hydrogen to a single carbon and then ship it to output? I suppose a loop of some sort is in order, but it's hurting my head trying to figure out how. The tutorials don't give you a good idea on how to do this, imo.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Uh oh, fusion lasers combined with sensors are going to make this so complicated later on, I just know it.

Oh god, I just got to the first production level that requires this very thing.

Holy shit this game's awesome!

I'm stuck though, how in the fuck am I supposed to bond two atoms of hydrogen to a single carbon and then ship it to output? I suppose a loop of some sort is in order, but it's hurting my head trying to figure out how. The tutorials don't give you a good idea on how to do this, imo.

Is this the last level of world 2? There's a couple different ways you can approach that one, you don't necessarily have to do that step depending on how you want to do it.

 

[mrklaw]

*just* squeezed through a level on planet 3 where you have to make cyanide.

Stripping off three hydrogen atoms from methane just took me so long compared to my nitrogen splitter, the nitrogen pipe was backing up and messing things up.

A combination of some optimisation of the methane splitter (the blue was doing all the hydrogens but the red now helps), and just making the nitrogen one slower let me squeeze through. Decent score too even though it didn't look very elegant.

My bonding of Nitrogen to C-H was beautiful though Just made sure the C-H was in the right orientation, had it input right on top of the bonding squares, so just had to push the nitrogen up and bond it. Just a shame it sits there waiting so long for C-H molecules..


Do you always try and get the outputs in the same location so the next factory has less problems? eg stripping three hydrogens off were previously arriving in the next factory in three different locations which made it really tricky.


oh, and steam name is same as gaf name.

 

[Diseased Yak]

Is this the last level of world 2? There's a couple different ways you can approach that one, you don't necessarily have to do that step depending on how you want to do it.

Yup, the one where you have to make Formaldenhyde or whatever. Double bond Carbon and Oxygen, ship it off to the 2nd plant to then slap two H's onto the C. Pulling my hair out last night staring at it for like an hour, trying to work out how to make the molecule roll back around for another H bond then ship it off. Never did figure it out. Up until that point the tutorials do a good job in showing you what mechanics you need to use in order to fulfill the order, but not so on this one.

I'll try again tonight, there must be something simple I'm missing. I would get one H bonded, swing the molecule around (rotating it twice) and lining it back up for a second H, but then have no way to then ship that off to the output.

 

[Clever Pun]

Yup, the one where you have to make Formaldenhyde or whatever. Double bond Carbon and Oxygen, ship it off to the 2nd plant to then slap two H's onto the C. Pulling my hair out last night staring at it for like an hour, trying to work out how to make the molecule roll back around for another H bond then ship it off. Never did figure it out. Up until that point the tutorials do a good job in showing you what mechanics you need to use in order to fulfill the order, but not so on this one.

I'll try again tonight, there must be something simple I'm missing. I would get one H bonded, swing the molecule around (rotating it twice) and lining it back up for a second H, but then have no way to then ship that off to the output.

this one was really tough for me too. If you don't have it by the time I get home (and access to my solution) I'll post some tips/full solution (spoilered of course).

 

[Diseased Yak]

this one was really tough for me too. If you don't have it by the time I get home (and access to my solution) I'll post some tips/full solution (spoilered of course).

Thanks man, might have to have some help. I think there's a concept I'm missing perhaps.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I haven't gone back yet to redo that particular one, I know I wasn't really efficient at all when I did it the first time.

Also, I'm almost done with the final level of world 5 - it absolutely requires user input to work properly though, no complete automatic solutions for this one.

 

[yeoz]

Also, I'm almost done with the final level of world 5 - it absolutely requires user input to work properly though, no complete automatic solutions for this one.

"Exploding Head Syndrome" is definitely doable without control inputs. Might just be a bit absurdly slow, though.

Spoiler

You can split off a majority of the input molecules into separate reactors for hydrogen/oxygen production and send the rest to another reactor for producing Pu.

I wish I could play the game over remote desktop

Spoiler

from work

, so I could screenshot what I have, but I just get graphical corruption when trying: http://steamcommunity.com/id/yeoz/screenshot/559782500808516883.

Spoiler

(Though steam cloud saves would be nice.)

 

[XiaNaphryz]

"Exploding Head Syndrome" is definitely doable without control inputs. Might just be a bit absurdly slow, though.

I was referring specifically to what I was doing for the level. Also, if it's not as efficient as the solution in head, there's no point!

 

[yeoz]

I was referring specifically to what I was doing for the level. Also, if it's not as efficient as the solution in head, there's no point!

Sorry. That 'no automatic solutions' there felt a bit strong. My first solution actually had user inputs too, but, to me, that's more inelegant than a slow solution. I'm sure I could optimize my fully-automatic solution to be faster too, but I only came up with it last night and haven't had a chance yet.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Worked out what the last kink was - had an extraneous sync command in the other reactor. I forget the exact stats since they don't keep track of those stages, but I think I finished that one around 1500 cycles or so.

 

[yeoz]

Oh right, they don't keep stats for the boss levels. So there's not much point in optimizing...
I wish more people on my friend's list had SpaceChem so I could compare scores.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Oh right, they don't keep stats for the boss levels. So there's not much point in optimizing...

I managed to finish with only 2 bars of damage done to the base, but in terms of just finishing the level I suppose you're right.

 

[Clever Pun]

Thanks man, might have to have some help. I think there's a concept I'm missing perhaps.

Ok, sorry if these aren't very good hints (I can't promise I don't spoil too much, but I'll try to make them progressively more spoilery.) Or, if you'd prefer, feel free to post what you have and maybe we can make a suggestion without giving too much away.

Spoiler

Make the carbon oxygen double bond in the first reactor, add the Hs in the second

Spoiler

You can loop one waldo around another waldo

Spoiler

Drop the H, bond it, then drop and move the second H into position

Spoiler

Drop the H with Waldo 1, Bond it with Waldo 2, then drop the second H and move it while Waldo 2 loops around to pick it up.

and here's just a screenshot to the solution:

Spoiler

http://steamcommunity.com/id/somesmart/screenshot/577797167799823564

 

[yeoz]

Ok, sorry if these aren't very good hints (I can't promise I don't spoil too much, but I'll try to make them progressively more spoilery.) Or, if you'd prefer, feel free to post what you have and maybe we can make a suggestion without giving too much away.

Spoiler

Make the carbon oxygen double bond in the first reactor, add the Hs in the second

Spoiler

You can loop one waldo around another waldo

Spoiler

Drop the H, bond it, then drop and move the second H into position

Spoiler

Drop the H with Waldo 1, Bond it with Waldo 2, then drop the second H and move it while Waldo 2 loops around to pick it up.

Yeah, this is exactly it. One thing you might not realize is:

Spoiler

You don't have to drop the molecule to bond other things to it.

Also, the waldo moving over a Bond+ symbol with trigger all bonding tiles on the board no matter where they are, no matter if you're over one of the bonding tiles or not.

Here's my solution for that part of the puzzle:

Spoiler

http://steamcommunity.com/id/yeoz/screenshot/559782500812764400

. I can't view Clever Pun's probably because it's set to friends only or something.

 

[Clever Pun]

Yeah, this is exactly it. One thing you might not realize is:

Spoiler

You don't have to drop the molecule to bond other things to it.

Also, the waldo moving over a Bond+ symbol with trigger all bonding tiles on the board no matter where they are, no matter if you're over one of the bonding tiles or not.

Here's my solution for that part of the puzzle:

Spoiler

http://steamcommunity.com/id/yeoz/screenshot/559782500812764400

. I can't view Clever Pun's probably because it's set to friends only or something.

Sent you a friend request on steam. But oh man, your solution is way more elegant and simple than mine.

I didn't realize your second tip, that's a good one to know!

 

[rohlfinator]

I just snagged this during the recent sale... just got to the first production assignment on world 4 and it's hurting my brain.

I'm not usually much of a puzzle game fan, but this is pushing all the right buttons. The open-endedness is fantastic -- like others have said, it really feels like you're inventing a solution rather than discovering it. I just finished the level that Drkirby and 19Kilo posted screenshots of, and our solutions are all completely different. (Mine is kludgy as hell, haha.)

I just wish that sharing your solutions was a bit easier... there's always the risk that people will just copy the most successful designs, but it would have been nice to have something in-game instead of having to rely on YouTube.

 

[yeoz]

I'm not really seeing anyone here beating my scores for elasped cycles so far.
So in the interest of fair play, here's a major hint for minimizing cycles (don't view if you don't want to be spoiled. or wait till you've beaten the game first if you don't want to optimize like a maniac until then):

Spoiler

Parallelization.

Spoiler

Really, that's it. Run everything in parallel. If you can solve the puzzle using ONLY the red waldo and symbols, you can use the exact same pattern for blue, and run it slightly behind the red one, using syncs to stop collisions, and you'll do the puzzle twice as fast.

Spoiler

That's it.

Spoiler

tl;dr: Get a single color solution as simple and as fast as possible, and just run it twice for speed.

You can go back to the first levels in each world, and apply the above to almost immediate benefit.

Here's an example, using the level (4-3: Random Oxides) that we've got a screenshot from DrKirby for and that rohlfinator can immediately compare with if he wants:

Spoiler

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/559782500827803103/C81695ED3B7FA7C1B7EE2DD84DA2ABF3EDBD58C4/

edit: i cannot spell

 

[vermadas]

Just did the two reactor challenge on 5-4:Falling.

This is the most insane reactor I've ever constructed.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Just did the two reactor challenge on 5-4:Falling.

This is the most insane reactor I've ever constructed.

I was lazy and just used 3 reactors:

EDIT: Heh, just looking at the screenshots I can already see easy efficiency improvements I can do cutting path lengths back. I remember just wanting to get through the level as I had to go do something.