See above.
And btw, there are a number of people that consider that the referendum is not illegal, and that the Spanish government is breaking some laws too.
So depends on how you want to see this
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Spain to suspend Catalonia's autonomy
- Thread starter Majine
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And btw, there are a number of people that consider that the referendum is not illegal, and that the Spanish government is breaking some laws too.
So depends on how you want to see this
xrnzaaas
Member
So you're saying it's like a coin toss?
ClosingADoor
Member
You keep saying this, but I don't see any lies. Isn't it illegal to have your signs and such only in Spanish in Catalonia? Or is the article I linked wrong on that.
And further question, did the Catalan government go through with enforcing that "public servants to initiate and continue all conversations in Catalan"? Because that would be very strange to me.
This is a classic Brexit talking point. And time and time again, every economist comes to the conclusion that the UK will be worse off outside of the EU. This is not a "let the dust settle" issue.
I don't think the argument holds up in court.
But the ruling party (high court) ruled it illegal. What other thinks is moot.
And yes Spain most likely broke a few laws when they tried stopping the voting.
But my point still stands I feel since there isnt enough movement in Spain to allow or change the constitution to allow this vote.
And we reached the Trump argument part of the discussion.
Also that part where the law is not interpreted by the judges but by "people".
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Is the Economist lying too?
I know reality hurts the seccecionist attitude that they're the oppressed not the oppressors. But it's true.
Fines for using Spanish in Catalonia. The real deal. Maybe these good people at GAF ought to know. After all, don't you want them to have all the facts?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's not fining people for speaking Spanish. That's fining people for not making a Catalan alternative available - I.e., speaking *exclusively* Spanish. Those sorts of rules are incredibly common in the territories of ethnic minorities in multinational states - Quebec has something basically identical.
As a Portuguese, I don't know what to think of this.
On one side, Catalonia history with the central government has never been good. They have their own language and proud history.
On the other, it's a stupid move to go independent, and the referedum results all seem like a vocal few that are trying to decide for an entire region.
I would prefer a strong united Spain. After Catalonia, we get Basque, then Galicia... and then what?
The countries should be vying to be united under one flag (European) instead of splitting more.
On one side, Catalonia history with the central government has never been good. They have their own language and proud history.
On the other, it's a stupid move to go independent, and the referedum results all seem like a vocal few that are trying to decide for an entire region.
I would prefer a strong united Spain. After Catalonia, we get Basque, then Galicia... and then what?
The countries should be vying to be united under one flag (European) instead of splitting more.
There's a law that favours catalan in order to reach parity. Positive discrimination it is called.
I don't like it either, but, hey it's the law isn't it? This one needs to be respected.. Or not?
Just joking. It does allow Spanish, as long there's catalan afaik. It does not ban Spanish. That is a lie.
Any way, the law exists and yet very few fines exist, if it wasn't the case you would not see thousands of shops and others in Spanish.
People like judges and experts in law think like that...
And Spanish Judges tied to PP in a country where 'separación de poderes' is supposed to exist. Yet everything points to the contrary.
Can you point me the law that bans referendums?
Or calling me Trump like makes you feel superior por something like that?
AcademicSaucer
Member
On the bright side Catalan still has it better than occitan
ClosingADoor
Member
Sure, but it shows that there is no oppression of the Catalan language in these days anymore. Something that is being said in this discussion.
Yes, the law should be followed. Which is why I found this part interesting: "In February 2016, Catalonia's superior court of justice banned parts of another language protocol that obliged public servants to initiate and continue all conversations in Catalan. The Catalan government said it would ignore the decision."
Can't find anything about how that developed. Would be interested to read. But it shows the Catalan government is fine with - promising to - ignoring laws, even when its own court strikes something down.
The arguments I read about the Catalan independence take on a more and more populist form. The same kind we see with Brexit and other EU populist platforms, and yes, also the same we see with people defending Trump.
Psyrgery ES
Member
I never called it a ban, that's just false, but I think there is "a bit of truth" there.
How can you call it parity when it only favours one side? I mean, it's no problem when you only sign in catalan, but do it in spanish and you get fined.
Don't get me wrong, since Franco died the language has had a healthy recovery and it is now widely used within the catalan territory which is something I appreciate, because the fucker banned it and it showed, many people from catalan families almost forgot how to speak it and write it but I still think that these language fines are not right.
gutter_trash
Banned
the hard-line confrontational approach both from the Conservative PP in Madrid and the Anarchist Separatist Puigedemont created a dual Extremist head-to-head that leads to zero results.
This has been a Spain problem for over 150 years in modern history. Hard heads on the extremes who can't talk to each other.
This has been a Spain problem for over 150 years in modern history. Hard heads on the extremes who can't talk to each other.
this sad fact is so true but sill sad for the Occitan. Catalan are spoiled compared to the Occitan
mocolostrocolos
Member
Keep digging Puigdemon, keep that shovel digging.
How stupid you have to be to make Mariano Rajoy look smart and capable, Jesus Christ.
More than 700 companies have moved their headquarters from Cataluña since 1-O.
https://elpais.com/economia/2017/10/17/actualidad/1508243493_271447.html
I'd really like to know what's the plan of Catalonian Economists to sustain their so-called country if they declare the DUI and gather enough international recognition.
How stupid you have to be to make Mariano Rajoy look smart and capable, Jesus Christ.
More than 700 companies have moved their headquarters from Cataluña since 1-O.
https://elpais.com/economia/2017/10/17/actualidad/1508243493_271447.html
I'd really like to know what's the plan of Catalonian Economists to sustain their so-called country if they declare the DUI and gather enough international recognition.
I didn't call you Trump. I called you on using Trump-like arguments: "There are many people who says ..."
I can talk since i work in public services.
Indications are start with catalan and if requested or other speaks Spanish change to spanish.
That positive discrimination is one of the things Spanish government wants to ban. Sure Spanish needs protection desire being talked by millions unlike catalan.
Can you be more specific about populism arguments for independentist s? And at the same time think about the equivalent from unionists?
mocolostrocolos
Member
Psyrgery ES
Member
Puig is not anarchist by a long shot. But their friends at CUP show some signs of it.
gutter_trash
Banned
Direct Democracy, back alley ballot stuffing, zero oversite on counting the ballots. Strongman tactics
mocolostrocolos
Member
Oranges and apples.
It is not parity. It is positive discrimination. Used with minorities.
What do you mean by sign?? My english is not great.
I don't like positive discrimination, but how can we do it?
See it the other way round. Can i go to the cinema and watch any movie in catalan? Is that discrimination?
ClosingADoor
Member
But they wanted to pass a law that made that a requirement, which was struck down by the court. Is it now a legal requirement for you to start in Catalan? Will you get in trouble if you don't?
As for populist arguments, the ones you used about how things will get better, it's too early to talk so wait and see, of course at the start it will be harder. Those kind of arguments. It puts logic and facts aside by ignoring the actual impact of these large decisions and telling people that in the end it will be better, but providing no actual proof for that.
A good example is the EU talk. Before the referendum there was all this talk about how Catalonia could stay part of the EU and they didn't need Spain, they had the EU. Well, now the EU isn't on their side and suddenly you don't need them anymore? That is pure populist talk and ignoring facts.
Do unionists have their share of populist arguments also? I guess. I haven't seen many, since most just point at how leaving will be bad for Catalonia. At least on this forum.
gutter_trash
Banned
but you got to acknowledge that the ballot stuffing in back alleys with zero legal oversite renders to vote a joke, right?
And_Gignac
Member
Hey guys, lets punish Catalonia, that will show them of much we want them to stay as part of one country!
This is like the worst solution ever and gives more credentials to Catalonia´s independence. I mean, the rest of Spain will continue to vote for the Franco Legacy Party, and Catalonia will continue to suffer under them.
This is like the worst solution ever and gives more credentials to Catalonia´s independence. I mean, the rest of Spain will continue to vote for the Franco Legacy Party, and Catalonia will continue to suffer under them.
I believe he meant that Puigdemont is as far away of an anarchist as you can be, he is from convergencia (the right most party that had to unite with esquerra forming JxS to avoid cratering due to corruption). Cup is the kinda anarchist one.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Absolutely, I don't support how Indepentistas handled the referendum.
Just wanted to clarify that Puigdemon is anything but an anarchist.
Hell, he's just from another right-winged nationalist party that made a deal with the devil (CUP and Junts) to keep themselves in a power position.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Quoting myself to update the number of companies that have left Cataluña: 917
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/10/19/59e8baa3ca47412b1d8b45a0.html
The are laws that the Spanish government bypasses too. It happens on both sides. It is not good of course.
And no, it is just a recommendation. Like in schools, or mossos, or health where i work, and in general, people talk the language that are comfortable with.
That said, if someone changes language to accommodate the interlocutor, most of the time it's catalan to Spanish, not the other way.
As for populist arguments. Countries becoming independent, being threatened with doom and gloom once they split has been a thing forever. And most of them are just fine, some better some worse. And that is how i see it. Same goes for uk. Most of them survive, if not all.
I also think there's a transition period were things are difficult, as with every separation, unless friendly, which almost never happens.
If that is populism, well what can i do.
And it is very telling that the only argument that seems to come from Spain to convince Catalonia to stay is hey, it is cold out there, instead of offering us to reasons to stay together. In fact they threaten in us by saying we indoctrinate, that will control or schools and nice things like that.
Changing social residence is one thing and leaving is another.
It is not a good thing of course, but it has limited effects.
We can also point that Spanish economy is also feeling the effects of the conflict, less growth, higher interests in foreign markets for public debt....
Even the boicot to catalan products, another interesting way to convince is that we are stronger together, is having it's impact in other regions since economy is interconnected and Tarradellas dir example buys from Extremadura's farms to name one example.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Your english is better than mine, I used "sign" as "rotular" because a guy used it for the same purpose but I am not sure if it's correct lol.
Just searched for a bit of info on why are there so few movies in catalan at cinema, and came up with this Culture minister Santi Vila has told the ACN that faced with the indifference of distributors and most exhibitors, movies for kids are commonly dubbed in catalan nowadays but as for adult movies there aren't so many. I also believe la Generalitat wanted to endorse a law to force a 50% language parity in cinemas, but I don't know why Brussels deemed it discriminatory. Go figures, I've always heard that movies dubbed in catalan have always made very poor profits or no profits at all and that's why they stopped dubbing them, except for movies for kids.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm incredibly bothered by the fact that separatists keep making this a Spain vs Catalonia issue, when it's only the separatist half of the Catalonian population the one pushing for the UDI. The other half wants none of it.
The way separatists keep ignoring, otherizing and downplaying half of the electorate is absurd. You cannot talk about dialogue when you are openly disregarding the other half of the people that is suppossed to live with you.
This is going to make cohabitation incredibly difficult. All for posturing.
ClosingADoor
Member
OK, so they didn't go through with that then. Still strange that a government says it will not follow a ruling of the courts. Arguments of "others do it too" are not very valid with such things.
Most countries becoming independent do so directly after oppression (former Soviet Union) or have a few wars behind them (Balkans). Countries normally don't split up when things are going pretty well.
And yes, that argument is populism. Do you think after independence those 1000+ companies will return somehow? Do you think you can make good trade agreements with the EU? How do you think it will impact the economy when splitting of from Spain? They will survive, but at what cost and impact to the people, and what improvement will you actually see in the end in your lives.
What do you want Spain to say? Please don't shoot yourself in the foot? What do you want them to offer at this moment that will make you change your mind.
Your argument here is: it hurts Spain too. So basically, burn my home down out of spite. This is not a healthy argument.
mocolostrocolos
Member
I said they were moving their company headquarters on my first post.
This is a shitty situation for Catalonia, and by extension for Spain. EOY numbers are going to be a disaster.
The boicot is simply stupid.
I can answer that. It does not makes sense financially to sub in catalan for a limited audience when catalan speakers also understand Spanish, why bother? I understand that, don't like it but understand. Spanish videogames forums complain because some games aren't dubbed to Spanish and only use subtitles. For the very same reason. Money.
Also, myself, always watched movies in Spanish, since never been dubbed when i was young, so used to it and even if it is my main language i feel strange when i watch i movie in catalan
Why should i drive 30km to watch starwars in catalan when i can watch in Spanish 3 streets from home. Vicious circle.
Conclusion, catalan is almost doesn't exist in this part of culture. Expand it to others. It is difficult for a language to survive I'm those conditions. Disappears from here, there... Becomes more irrelevant.
That is why, with hits and misses, we try to protect it. And Spain tries to do the opposite.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Moving the social residence has a very small economic impact, but it really makes quite an impact on the confidence of the industry that has to fuel the economy of your country. Bussinesses and investors are basically saying "I don't trust your project and I think it is unsafe to keep my bussiness anchored here"
It's more symbolic than economic.
And_Gignac
Member
Do we have receipts on this other "half" of the Catalonian population? The only data we have is the referendum, and thanks to PP´s fascists tactics we can not count it as reliable.
I see a lot of otherization and toxic antagonization of the Catalonian identity coming from Spaniards politicians and pundits, specially El País (de Franco). Which is rich since they are the ones more obsessed with the unity of Spain.
I am glad most people, like yourself, can see the frustration we are living here in Spain.
Following the constitution that rules all of Spain is now considered fascist?
Besides the useless referendum, the result of the last regional elections and all the polls show the same thing more or less.
Let's turn this the other way around. What legitimacy do you have for declaring independence?
The +50% of voters that didn't vote for an independentist party on the latest elections?
That Catalonia is split between independentist and non-independentist is a fact.
jakonovski
Member
I don't see how either side's rhetoric makes Catalan a part of Spain. That's the main issue here I think. No reconciliation, just further inflammation.
gutter_trash
Banned
reminds me of the tense nature of Quebec 1995, I was 20 years old and voted NO in that Referendum and the atmosphere was antagonistic, not a pleasant time to have live passed.
I can only imagine how antagonistic the pro-independence Catalan who yell louder over the heads of pro-unity Catalan people who are shouted down.
And_Gignac
Member
Yeah, using the police forces to repress democracy is quite fascists if you ask me. There were other solutions, but I guess you cant expect much more from The Franco Legacy Party.
I wasn't aware the Spanish Constitution demands that riot police beat up kids and old women.
Then again Franco was only 40 years ago, so maybe it does.
Yeah didn't the catalán government say that they would proclaim independence if they got +50% votes in the regional election? They fell short so had to take some time to perform some political gimnastics where they are suddenly representing the majority, or so they say.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The fact that you are asking makes me believe that you are less versed than you think you are.
Latest figures from the Catalonian government's statistics department, taken shortly before the referendum. Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state?
2015 elections. Soberanist parties favouring a UDI are marked in red:
gutter_trash
Banned
that's not a Referendum.
SNP has the majority of the seats in Scotland and failed to win their Referendum. Majority in the legislature does not mean automatic Declaration of Independence.
Legislative elections are apples and oranges to a Referendum on Independence.
Alive as fuck. Don't worry.
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