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[Punished_Snake]

Skull Face followed the Man on Fire. He wasn't explicitly sent by anyone.

Ok, but the code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher or was it sent to Ocelot to make him appear at the right time?

 

[Marty-esque]

Believability doesn't justify something's inclusion in a piece of fiction.

Sure, it's believable that a woman in that situation could be raped. Does that mean making the creative choice to include it in this piece of fiction was the right call? I don't see how that scene adds to the narrative in any significant way. I don't think it reveals anything profound. I don't think it says anything about rape in war.

It's simply a scene to make you go "Oh fuck" and nothing more.

I feel as though the acceptance of rape being a eventuality with a female character comes directly from any medium that continues to believe this is what would happen. "Women get raped, that's what bad guys do" feeds into the next text that says the same thing, and it continues until it's believed that when it happens, it's not questioned and accepted just like violence.

Seeing the attempted rape probably made you angry, because of course you would be! But did you stop to think, or did BB stop to think, about how that might affect Quiet? Did you think about how she might need to see a counselor on the medical platform? Of how she would have a hard time processing the events because she took a vow of silence?

Ok, you didn't strengthen your argument. Let's just say that you should keep in mind that "rape as weapon of war" means something more than just rape in war. It's a term for multiple issues, but none involve the Quiet situation. Just so you know, and let's move back to the main topic of the side-topic.

Yes. Rape has happened in war, no doubt about that. Could that situation happen in a war? Yes, it could. However what we are talking about is the botched narrative. This is a work of fiction and every scene has to serve a purpose. This scene was totally disconnected and just a stock event that happens in media around soldiers. It's not talked about, it wasn't lead up, it wasn't something that was ever spoken again off. A meaningless shock element. The scene already had the drowning that build reasonable tension for the player and worked both as supposed threat for Quiet and as plot element to give her back strength. Rape is not something you should throw in as petty window dressing, it should serve a purpose as part of the whole narrative work. It doesn't here.Skullface. He was the head of XOF and since Cipher didn't particularly cared for this arm, SF had free reign. The attack was completely on his terms. Cipher as a whole had nothing to do with it. Cipher had barely anything to do with the hospital. That was SAS with old contacts of Zero himself.

This makes no sense to me at all. I wonder what would be an acceptable depiction of a rape.

 

[wiibomb]

Ok, but the code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher or was it sent to Ocelot to make him appear at the right time?

it was sent to all relevant people, that is: Zero, Ocelot and Kaz, may be even Skull Face by his own comms system, and I think Zero was not conscious anymore when BB awoke

 

[Salaadin]

I'm not defending it, but that's how I feel. You need to "imAgine" and "interpret" to get what you wanted, and that's not necessarily fair.

It can be fair. Some of my favorite games leave it open.

I don't think mgs5 is one of those games, though. Parts of it, sure but the whole of it is sloppy.

 

[BadWolf]

Ok, but the code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher or was it sent to Ocelot to make him appear at the right time?

It was sent to everyone who was part of the plan (you hear it as going through multiple communication lines).

It was the trigger phrase to put the plan in motion.

 

[Roni]

Ok, but the code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher or was it sent to Ocelot to make him appear at the right time?

Exactly who it was sent to in the scene we see is impossible to determine. We knew Zero, Ocelot and Miller (possibly Clarke, Anderson and even EVA) knew that the phrase 'V has come to' was to be used to inform the interested parties the plan was in motion. Could have been broadcast, could have been told individually to multiple parties.

 

[SweetJohnnyCage]

Ok, but the code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher or was it sent to Ocelot to make him appear at the right time?

I feel like it was likely sent to Ocelot as he was told the code phrase by Zero. Zero's job was done once he set the wheels in motion with copying Boss's memories over to Venom. He knew he was dying, and very likely could've already been reduced to brain mush by the time V woke up a few days after visiting Boss.

 

[Opto]

This makes no sense to me at all. I wonder what would be an acceptable depiction of a rape.

Something that doesn't treat it like cheap icing on a motivation cake.

 

[Chariot]

Using rape to establish a realistic wartime atmosphere is a purpose.

This is exactly the problem what I talked about. Rape isn't just some minor atmospheric detail, like some wolf scratching himself or soldiers turning way hearing far noises from the toilet. It's a serious issue. You shouldn't just go "oh, well, war will be warr." Talk about it. Make it the issue it deserves to be.

This makes no sense to me at all. I wonder what would be an acceptable depiction of a rape.

How about talking about it and not just shrugging it off as a atmospheric detail.

 

[Neiteio]

it was sent to all relevant people, that is: Zero, Ocelot and Kaz, may be even Skull Face by his own comms system, and I think Zero was not conscious anymore when BB awoke

I doubt it would go to Skull Face, only because Major Zero already knew about Skull Face's betrayal. He had already pricked his finger, contracted the parasite and begun to fall ill. He had already visited Big Boss in the hospital.

Thing I don't fully understand is Skull Face was rogue but continued to receive funding for his XOF outlet. It's said in one of the tapes that Skull Face's men don't realize he's gone rogue and is following his own agenda. But, uh, couldn't Major Zero tell the CIA, "We have a problem here?" Or maybe Zero couldn't shut down XOF without drawing attention to his own agenda? Or maybe when Skull Face went rogue, he pillaged funding and resources, as well?

 

[Toa TAK]

Did you guys see Miracle of Sound's vid on this?

 

[Opto]

Kojima will spend hours talking about war and conflicts and nukes and deterrence but rape is never given the same treatment

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

This makes no sense to me at all. I wonder what would be an acceptable depiction of a rape.

one where it served the story and had ramifications not one where it's there for shock value.

Would that scene at all been any different if they simply tried to drown her and the rape attempt didn't happen? If the answer is no, then the rape is a poorly used device only there to attempt to shock the player and doesn't actually do justice to the horror of the act and how it affects all parties involved.

 

[Chariot]

one where it served the story and had ramifications not one where it's there for shock value.

Would that scene at all been any different if they simply tried to drown her and the rape attempt didn't happen? If the answer is no, then the rape is a poorly used device only there to attempt to shock the player and doesn't actually do justice to the horror of the act and how it affects all parties involved.

Pretty much. As I said, the drowning has all important aspects of the scene covered.

 

[Neiteio]

Did you guys see Miracle of Sound's vid on this?

This is fantastic. I've never heard that song before. It's an original piece inspired by the game, right? I mean, the lyrics fit way too well.

 

[wiibomb]

I doubt it would go to Skull Face, only because Major Zero already knew about Skull Face's betrayal. He had already pricked his finger, contracted the parasite and begun to fall ill. He had already visited Big Boss in the hospital.

Thing I don't fully understand is Skull Face was rogue but continued to receive funding for his XOF outlet. It's said in one of the tapes that Skull Face's men don't realize he's gone rogue and is following his own agenda. But, uh, couldn't Major Zero tell the CIA, "We have a problem here?" Or maybe Zero couldn't shut down XOF without drawing attention to his own agenda? Or maybe when Skull Face went rogue, he pillaged funding and resources, as well?

for the first part: I never said Zero contacted him to tell about BB awaken, but more like he had his own ways to know after getting the trace where Zero was located, after the SF attack on Zero, most probably he wouldn't have time or will to get hidden again, making it more easier to SF to keep track of his location.
well, as long as we know, Skull Face attacked the hospital and that was because he timely knew about the awaken

for thse second part: the game explicitly said that he went after his own agenda, but never said the CIA knew about it, most probably nobody knew what he was doing in Africa

 

[BadWolf]

This is exactly the problem what I talked about. Rape isn't just some minor atmospheric detail, like some wolf scratching himself or soldiers turning way hearing far noises from the toilet. It's a serious issue. You shouldn't just go "oh, well, war will be warr." Talk about it. Make it the issue it deserves to be. How about talking about it and not just shrugging it off as a atmospheric detail.

Did you want Quiet to actually get raped? Because that is the main reason that they would have to comment on it at length.

As it stands, rape almost took place but she took control. She then disappeared to take the English strain with her.

Did you expect Miller, Ocelot and Venom to just talk about it at Mother Base?

The GZ Paz tapes, the attempted rape on Quite, the subject was very much made a big deal out of. In a way that would make you hear and see and then think, instead of having the subject matter spoon fed to you in long conversations to tell you that rape is bad.

 

[brau]

Holy cow.. this thread is almost at 400... is a thread name already picked?

 

[Chariot]

for the first part: I never said Zero contacted him to tell about BB awaken, but more like he had his own ways to know after getting the trace where Zero was located, after the SF attack on Zero, most probably he wouldn't have time or will to get hidden again, making it more easier to SF to keep track of his location.
well, as long as we know, Skull Face attacked the hospital and that was because he timely knew about the awaken

for thse second part: the game explicitly said that he went after his own agenda, but never said the CIA knew about it, most probably nobody knew what he was doing in Africa

Skullface was at the hospital because he followed the man on fire, was he not? He didn't know the location until Volgin led Mantis to Big Bosses there.

Did you want Quiet to actually get raped? Because that is the main reason that they would have to comment on it at length.

As it stands, rape almost took place but she took control. She then disappeared to take the English strain with her.

Did you expect Miller, Ocelot and Venom to just talk about it at Mother Base?

The GZ Paz tapes, the attempted rape on Quite, the subject was very much made a big deal out of. In a way that would make you hear and see and then think, instead of having the subject matter spoon fed to you in long conversations to tell you that rape is bad.

You know, attempted rape can have pretty bad ramifications. It's not okay, just because they didn't actually get to rape her. And yes, I expected either no rape at all or the narrative actually doing something with it. If it's not doing anything, you could just let it be. As I said, the drowning has everything that's relevant for the scene.

 

[BadWolf]

Skullface was at the hospital because he followed the man on fire, was he not? He didn't know the location until Volgin led Mantis to Big Bosses there.

That's right iirc.

 

[StevieWhite]

This is exactly the problem what I talked about. Rape isn't just some minor atmospheric detail, like some wolf scratching himself or soldiers turning way hearing far noises from the toilet. It's a serious issue. You shouldn't just go "oh, well, war will be warr." Talk about it. Make it the issue it deserves to be. How about talking about it and not just shrugging it off as a atmospheric detail.

It's an atmospheric detail if the author/creator wants it to be. You may disagree with its use as such, but you can't say it doesn't have a purpose. By its mere presence, it forms a part of the whole picture of the game.

 

[KOMANI]

It can be fair. Some of my favorite games leave it open.

I don't think mgs5 is one of those games, though. Parts of it, sure but the whole of it is sloppy.

I agree. Bloodborne is an example where it works

 

[ElFly]

I feel like he does it after talking to Big Boss, while back on the ship. He'd obviously prepared himself before hand and just had to go through the final phase after making sure they were safe. When you tranq Ocelot, he says "2+2=5", which, as we know from Doublespeak, is an example of making people believe an illusion. Could just be a Kojima easter egg from 1984, but maybe not.

I feel like the trigger to wake him up, or make him snap out of hypnosis, is the sound from the "Operation Intrude N313" tape. When V smashes the mirror, we see that it's in Outer Heaven. Then, the credits roll, and we hear Ocelot talking to Miller. I feel like this takes place either in Outer Heaven during Solid Snake's infiltration (hence all the bombs going off and gunfire), or slightly before during Grey Fox's infiltration. That's when Big Boss gives the call for Venom to take his place to take the fall, and Ocelot and Miller leave and go their separate ways.

---

I'm so god damn interested in what happens to Ocelot during all this. I would've waited another year for this game if it meant getting the complete story.

I don't think the final tape takes place at outer heaven ;Big Boss at that point is supposed to be at Fox Hound so it wouldn't do to have the two leaders of diamond dogs be at OH. It d be too visible that BB has ties to OH.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Ok, you didn't strengthen your argument. Let's just say that you should keep in mind that "rape as weapon of war" means something more than just rape in war. It's a term for multiple issues, but none involve the Quiet situation. Just so you know, and let's move back to the main topic of the side-topic.

Yes. Rape has happened in war, no doubt about that. Could that situation happen in a war? Yes, it could. However what we are talking about is the botched narrative. This is a work of fiction and every scene has to serve a purpose. This scene was totally disconnected and just a stock event that happens in media around soldiers. It's not talked about, it wasn't lead up, it wasn't something that was ever spoken again off. A meaningless shock element. The scene already had the drowning that build reasonable tension for the player and worked both as supposed threat for Quiet and as plot element to give her back strength. Rape is not something you should throw in as petty window dressing, it should serve a purpose as part of the whole narrative work. It doesn't here.Skullface. He was the head of XOF and since Cipher didn't particularly cared for this arm, SF had free reign. The attack was completely on his terms. Cipher as a whole had nothing to do with it. Cipher had barely anything to do with the hospital. That was SAS with old contacts of Zero himself.

I strongly disagree. Truly deplorable things happen during conflict all the time. To this day, even in more "professional" environments. And a big reason for that is because those terrible things are not dramatized like they would be in society. Or in a movie, or in a game. By making sure a potential rape fits the narrative, serves a specific thought out purpose, you actually make it much less fitting of the situation. Yes, rape during times of war or just in the military in general can and often does happen without any specific purpose of grand reason. And that's what makes is so damn bad. And don't get me wrong, I think MGS5 in terms of story line is terrible. Hell, most of the things with Quiet is cringe worthy and dumb. But too often I see people taking a stance that "Your entire script must be tailored to fit a serious issue if you dare talk about it" when in many cases that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Sadly in real life serious issues are not always taken seriously. (Or acknowledged at all) Our media shouldn't lend itself to a narrative that doesn't exist just because it feels better than the truth.

 

[BadWolf]

As I said, the drowning has everything that's relevant for the scene.

Drowning does nothing to Quiet, might as well tickle her.

The point was to show a reality of war.

You don't want to see it in a game and that's fine, a personal preference that is perfectly okay to have, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for it to be there, because it absolutely does in the given situation.

 

[brinstar]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is a game that opens with a psychic boy summoning a giant whale of fire. It is not interested in telling a realistic depiction of war

 

[Marty-esque]

I strongly disagree. Truly deplorable things happen during conflict all the time. To this day, even in more "professional" environments. And a big reason for that is because those terrible things are not dramatized like they would be in society. Or in a movie, or in a game. By making sure a potential rape fits the narrative, serves a specific thought out purpose, you actually make it much less fitting of the situation. Yes, rape during times of war or just in the military in general can and often does happen without any specific purpose of grand reason. And that's what makes is so damn bad. And don't get me wrong, I think MGS5 in terms of story line is terrible. Hell, most of the things with Quiet is cringe worthy and dumb. But too often I see people taking a stance that "Your entire script must be tailored to fit a serious issue if you dare talk about it" when in many cases that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Sadly in real life serious issues are not always taken seriously. (Or acknowledged at all) Our media shouldn't lend itself to a narrative that doesn't exist just because it feels better than the truth.

Well said.

 

[Timeaisis]

Yeah, what happened to the Whale? I was hoping to see more of that. Would've been an awesome boss.

 

[Punished_Snake]

it was sent to all relevant people, that is: Zero, Ocelot and Kaz, may be even Skull Face by his own comms system, and I think Zero was not conscious anymore when BB awoke

When did Kaz know about the plan? After he was rescued or at the end?

 

[Marty-esque]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is a game that opens with a psychic boy summoning a giant whale of fire. It is not interested in telling a realistic depiction of war

So there's absolutely nothing based on reality in the game?

 

[Neiteio]

I don't think the final tape takes place at outer heaven ;Big Boss at that point is supposed to be at Fox Hound so it wouldn't do to have the two leaders of diamond dogs be at OH. It d be too visible that BB has ties to OH.

The mirror scene is in Outer Heaven, after the time skip. You can see the Diamond Dogs logo in the background change into the Outer Heaven logo.

Also, they show the mirror itself before the prologue, with the following text: "Just another day in a war without end" — Outer Heaven

Oops, you're talking about the tapes.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Holy cow.. this thread is almost at 400... is a thread name already picked?

I humbly resubmit my uncreative idea:

Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | [EXTREME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is a game that opens with a psychic boy summoning a giant whale of fire. It is not interested in telling a realistic depiction of war

Lazy and frankly stupid excuse. You can have fictional settings (you know, like every great sci-fi or fantasy story ever) and still deal with adult and heavy themes in a realistic manner.

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, what happened to the Whale? I was hoping to see more of that. Would've been an awesome boss.

Nearly positive the whale imagery is a hallucination. The chopper is indeed going down in flames, but I think the whale itself is an illusion. Perhaps inspired by the names "Ahab" and "Ishmael" still rattling around in Venom's mind.

 

[Ashura_MX]

And that's why shooting Quiet is the canon choice.

Can you 100% if you do this? (Honest question)

I'm guessing no since you can just replay the mission and choose to save her, or get DDog in africa or afganistan.


Also lol this whole Quiet argument from 20 pages ago.

 

[brau]

I humbly resubmit my uncreative idea:

Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | [EXTREME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

i see what you did there. LOL. I actually really like it.

Yeah, what happened to the Whale? I was hoping to see more of that. Would've been an awesome boss.

sadly one of those things i mentioned several times before and people never engaged in this conversation.

I do think the key to all MGS lies within the whale. The whale is not only the missing link. But it does what Prometheus couldn't. It explains life itself. I am sure of it.

 

[Roni]

Yeah, what happened to the Whale? I was hoping to see more of that. Would've been an awesome boss.

That was Ahab controlling Mantis. Why the shape and form of a whale? If doesn't seem to repeat anywhere else... Well, Venom had just been exposed to the name Ahab and then subsequently to the name Ishmael. If he read the novel, it's pretty easy to assume his subconscious would be loaded with references to the material.

I believe Mantis attacked the helicopter using a shape provided by Venom's subconscious.

 

[brinstar]

Lazy and frankly stupid excuse. You can have fictional settings (you know, like every great sci-fi or fantasy story ever) and still deal with adult and heavy themes in a realistic manner.

I don't disagree with this. I also don't think MGSV deals with rape at all. It's just there, as a lazy cliched trope to "empower" a female character.

 

[GavinUK86]

Can you 100% if you do this? (Honest question)

I'm guessing no since you can just replay the mission and choose to save her, or get DDog in africa or afganistan.


Also lol this whole Quiet argument from 20 pages ago.

You need Quiet for 100%.

 

[Opto]

Drowning does nothing to Quiet, might as well tickle her.

The point was to show a reality of war.

You don't want to see it in a game and that's fine, a personal preference that is perfectly okay to have, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for it to be there, because it absolutely does in the given situation.

Ocelot said she can't be fully covered or she wouldn't be able to breath. She was turning blue in the water from asphyxiation.

Chariot never said they didn't want to see it in a game, they just don't want to see it being throw away detail. Which it was. I don't buy it being there to show the reality of war, given that Kojima spends more time on all the other realities of war. Should Meryl have been raped because it's a reality of war? Naomi? The Boss? None of the female POWs in Peace Walker or MGSV were shown or even hinted at being raped. This wasn't a subject Kojima was interested in other than being used to justify an axe kick and stabs to some groins. Which I felt like there was already enough justification

 

[Scott32020]

Has anyone posted this modded Ocelot for Quiet cutscene yet? Hilarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87YXRvfMDlM

Ocelot for DD is funny too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L1WYMKSaTA

 

[Neiteio]

That was Ahab controlling Mantis. Why the shape and form of a whale? If doesn't seem to repeat anywhere else... Well, Venom had just been exposed to the name Ahab and then subsequently to the name Ishmael. If he read the novel, it's pretty easy to assume his subconscious would be loaded with references to the material.

I believe Mantis attacked the helicopter using a shape provided by Venom's subconscious.

Yeah, either this, or the fire attack simply looked like a whale from Venom's distorted POV.

A hallucination, in other words. Caused by his horn.

Or perhaps something else:

 

[wiibomb]

When did Kaz know about the plan? After he was rescued or at the end?

Not quite clear, but since Zero gave him his own little network to know when BB wake, he should have knew almost immediately (days after at much)

 

[Sn4ke_911]

I miss you, Quiet.

Please come back

 

[Shadow_Lord]

Posed by someone else, but it was good, so:

Spoiler Thread: The Man Who Trolled the World

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Has anyone posted this modded Ocelot for Quiet cutscene yet? Hilarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87YXRvfMDlM

Ocelot for DD is funny too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L1WYMKSaTA

Has someone been able to mod Kojima into the Quiet cutscenes yet? That should be done.

 

[TheBoss1]

Especially considering they saved his and Miller's life.

They didn't. They were moved after the coma came.

Why does attempted rape have to be so complicated to be acceptable? You guys act like the people who do it have some deep, complex motive to do it rather than it just being as simple as I don't like you/your people so I rape your women as a result... or the rapist just being overly obsessed with the victim. What I saw in MGSV is a realistic depiction of the many ways to portray it. Whether you like it or not in MGSV, it happens that way a lot.

 

[Chariot]

I can see your points. But as I said, rape as a device is grossly overused as a shock trope, like kicking a puppy. A lot of media, like MGSV, put attempted rape in so the consumer can nod and say "yes, this person/this persons is/are pretty evil." and then move on. It's not painting a big picture, it's using a common trope. If Kojima wanted to seriously go at the topic of rape, he would've given us more then the attempted act itself. Because it had no lasting impact at all for any of the characters.

He had opportunity when the child soldiers arrived at Motherbase. Incidentally rape of child soldiers as initiation ritual falls into rape as a weapon of war. This is something not very often talked about, an opportunity to speak about a very troublesome issue. Not that I rather prefer to have child soldiers in general more fleshed out.

Too brutal? Let's take it a few steps down. Sexual Harassment on Motherbase. That could've been an interesting topic. Notice that you pulled a good chunk of your soldiers from the same pool the rapists came from. There could've been easily sexual harassment, maybe "just" vocally, or even in gazes. But nope, Quiet is just a pleasure show without trouble.

 

[Haunted]

nvm

 

[Opto]

It's almost like all of the ideas in this game were half-baked

 

[Chariot]

It's almost like all of the ideas in this game were half-baked

Right. It's all ideas. Taped together like the Holy Roman Empire pre-Bismarck.