SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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Marty-esque
Member
It's very believable that Quiet could be raped there.
Hellwarden
Member
I don't have a problem with the direction that scene with Quiet took. It's uncomfortable, and it's supposed to be.
The problem, aside from the fact that there are loads of scenes with Quiet that are uncomfortable when they're not supposed to be, is that Quiet is barely a character.
Big character defining traits like who she originally wanted revenge against, and what her motivations are are either limp or just not there.
I'm supposed to go on this rescue mission to save her, and to be honest, I couldn't have cared less.
Quiet might be the laziest female character I've seen in a game this year.
The problem, aside from the fact that there are loads of scenes with Quiet that are uncomfortable when they're not supposed to be, is that Quiet is barely a character.
Big character defining traits like who she originally wanted revenge against, and what her motivations are are either limp or just not there.
I'm supposed to go on this rescue mission to save her, and to be honest, I couldn't have cared less.
Quiet might be the laziest female character I've seen in a game this year.
I am not denying that there is rape in war. I am saying that rape as weapon of war is not the semantic that applies in the attempted Quiet rape. That was an ordinary rape. Not as weapon of war.
Am I not clear enough? You brought rape as weapon of war in. I tell you this is just rape, not rape as weapon of war as Amnesty International understands it.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Then it's me. Because I laughed out loud and thought the hand formation of a duck ready to scoop out a bomb looked ridiculous.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
One of the first things Venom says to Kaz is that what they are doing isn't all about the past "revenge", but the future.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Hey guys, I have a question for you.
A friend and I are attempting to piece together the final events of the Truth Revealed ending. I had assumed that Ocelot takes Big Boss from the ambulance and brings him to the motorcycle between 2:32am and 5:59am, as the times indicate in that episode. But then I went back and watched the times in Episode 0, and it shows V coming out of the ambulance at 2:59am. After that, though, is when you ride with Ocelot to escape the Man on Fire, and immediately get on the container ship off of Cyprus.
How can Ocelot send off Big Boss at 5:59am if he's on a container ship by 3:30am? They're in the same location, the outskirts of the military base on Cyprus. Am I missing something?
A friend and I are attempting to piece together the final events of the Truth Revealed ending. I had assumed that Ocelot takes Big Boss from the ambulance and brings him to the motorcycle between 2:32am and 5:59am, as the times indicate in that episode. But then I went back and watched the times in Episode 0, and it shows V coming out of the ambulance at 2:59am. After that, though, is when you ride with Ocelot to escape the Man on Fire, and immediately get on the container ship off of Cyprus.
How can Ocelot send off Big Boss at 5:59am if he's on a container ship by 3:30am? They're in the same location, the outskirts of the military base on Cyprus. Am I missing something?
Oh that I agree with.
Dick Justice
Banned
I miss you, Quiet.
Please come back
Invest in a gaming PC and a second copy of the game.
KOMANI
KOMANI
She's a lazy character in a lazy environment. Your investment in the game dictates the quantity of story you get out of it. Everything is up to you to make things work.
Inferno313
Banned
Believability doesn't justify something's inclusion in a piece of fiction.
Sure, it's believable that a woman in that situation could be raped. Does that mean making the creative choice to include it in this piece of fiction was the right call? I don't see how that scene adds to the narrative in any significant way. I don't think it reveals anything profound. I don't think it says anything about rape in war.
It's simply a scene to make you go "Oh fuck" and nothing more.
Well Kojima did warn that he would address taboo topics in this game.
Whether you agree with that or not is up to you.
Good point.
I feel like Venom isn't driven by revenge so much as acquiescing to the anger of those around him.
I mean, I'm sure he wants justice, but he's more... chill about it.
Graphics Horse
Member
I don't get why people are stuck on this, it's after he took Venom to the ship. Doesn't it show the broken bridge at the start of the scene?
Inferno313
Banned
He doesn't actually address rape in war though. He doesn't contribute anything remotely meaningful to the topic. He doesn't explore the systematic issues in place that allow rape in war to happen. He doesn't explore the effect that rape has on a soldier's psyche.
He just uses it as a lazy dramatic device.
SJRB
Gold Member
Oh I am well aware that MGSV has no easter eggs or other fun hidden stuff.
Just another day in a war without end - MGSV.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
would the story have been affected at all by the absence of the rape attempt?
Oh, look it would've been exactly the same. The character shows no trauma and is not affected by the attempt in the slightest really. She kills a bunch of dudes but she's done that before with less of a reason to do so. She just survives an attempted rape, kills a bunch of chumps, then helps you snipe a bunch of men so you can get out of that contrived conflict with half of the world's tanks and a gunship
so that means the rape attempt is inconsequential. there is no development of the character from it. there are no repercussions from the soldiers that they likely wouldn't have met without the attempted rape. It's just there to get a rise out of you.
which backs the notion that it's there solely for shock value and Kojima shouldn't have been so terrible wrt using it so recklessly.
Oh, look it would've been exactly the same. The character shows no trauma and is not affected by the attempt in the slightest really. She kills a bunch of dudes but she's done that before with less of a reason to do so. She just survives an attempted rape, kills a bunch of chumps, then helps you snipe a bunch of men so you can get out of that contrived conflict with half of the world's tanks and a gunship
so that means the rape attempt is inconsequential. there is no development of the character from it. there are no repercussions from the soldiers that they likely wouldn't have met without the attempted rape. It's just there to get a rise out of you.
which backs the notion that it's there solely for shock value and Kojima shouldn't have been so terrible wrt using it so recklessly.
What did you expect? A documentary on rape?
The fact that it is shown and makes the player think is enough.
Ocelot puts Venom in the ship. "Wait here -- I need to take care of something." Venom then goes back to meet Big Boss.
Maybe something like that.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
He also didnt finish his game.
Supposed to get more stuff on the Child Soldiers as well.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
It does, but I just figured V would find it weird that Ocelot suddenly has to leave even though he has his cargo/rescue and go do something. I just figured there was a better explanation than "Hey Boss, BRB".
Hellwarden
Member
Marty-esque
Member
I brought that up to support my argument. My point was that rape has happened in war. Weather it's on the scale of something like Bosnia wasn't the point at all.
Graphics Horse
Member
He's probably having a snooze, had a pretty rough night.
Punished_Snake
Member
The hospital scene, was it all part of the ruse? The way I understand it: Sigint was the head of Cipher after Zero was attacked by Skull Face and became ill, and Skull Face (with his unit XOF) was no longer taking commands from Cipher. The code phrase "V has come to" was sent to Cipher to let them know that Venom and Big Boss were ready to go with the plan. The question is: Who sent the XOF, Sigint or Skull Face?
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Your not just a viewer though. You are interacting in the world creating your own story with every second you have control.
And in an open world game with so many choices and so many variables we all have our unique story of how we accomplished a mission. But it all depends on if you tried to be daring or if you stayed back and played it safe by putting everyone to sleep with the tranq gun.
It doesn't make the player think. It's literally only there so Quiet's powers can activate because her abilities are tied to how exposed she is so we can ogle her more.
One line I really liked was after you rescue Miller he says "Kaz what should I do. Tell me like you used to." Even Kaz seems puzzled when venom says that.
SJRB
Gold Member
They killed like 70 people in that hospital - that's not a ruse, that's a massacre.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Yea true, likely passed the fuck out haha.
Do you guys have an estimate on when Ocelot goes under the self-hypnosis, and when/how he snaps out of it? I've been avoiding this thread until I finished.
Skull Face followed the Man on Fire. He wasn't explicitly sent by anyone.
I feel as though the acceptance of rape being a eventuality with a female character comes directly from any medium that continues to believe this is what would happen. "Women get raped, that's what bad guys do" feeds into the next text that says the same thing, and it continues until it's believed that when it happens, it's not questioned and accepted just like violence.
Seeing the attempted rape probably made you angry, because of course you would be! But did you stop to think, or did BB stop to think, about how that might affect Quiet? Did you think about how she might need to see a counselor on the medical platform? Of how she would have a hard time processing the events because she took a vow of silence?
Seeing the attempted rape probably made you angry, because of course you would be! But did you stop to think, or did BB stop to think, about how that might affect Quiet? Did you think about how she might need to see a counselor on the medical platform? Of how she would have a hard time processing the events because she took a vow of silence?
Inferno313
Banned
I think when you're going to include a very heavy topic like rape into your fictional story, you better have a good fucking reason for doing so. The scene doesn't do ANYTHING to make the player think. It doesn't even attempt to grasp at the harder questions. It's purely shock value. Rape as shock value isn't valuable in anyway. It normalizes it and diminishes the actual trauma and horror of rape.
Hellwarden
Member
Again, I care nothing, NOTHING, about the meta commentary of this game.
I don't want to tell my own story. I don't care about putting myself into this world.
What you're telling me to do is basically make my own fanfiction, in a Metal Gear game.
MGSV: The Fanfiction Pain.
DId you think anything other than "rape is bad"
FlashbladeGAF
Member
I think he was lying.
Unless he did it after he told Miller, because he definitely didn't do it after he rescued Big Boss and Venom (like he said he would in the tapes).
Well to be fair this is like the second or third spoiler thread that reaches almost 400 pages, so "serious discussion" was bound to end at some point. Most of what people wanted to say about the game has already been said.
All that is left is WHOOOOO, SUCH A LUST and T&A.
KOMANI
KOMANI
I'm not defending it, but that's how I feel. You need to "imAgine" and "interpret" to get what you wanted, and that's not necessarily fair.
The GZ rape scene was Skull Face using the most deplorable means imaginable to "break" his subjects. From a dramatic standpoint, yeah, it was for shock value and I can see how that's offensive. But I suppose it's not implausible someone like Skull Face might do something like this.
I actually thought the aftermath was well-done. Chico truly loved Paz. He wasn't looking to get into her pants; he was looking for true love. And Skull Face took that and violated his sense of intimacy with her by making it something carnal, something forceful, something voyeuristic. There are all sorts of fucked-up layers at work there. You feel horrible for Chico. He is understandably shellshocked.
And then Paz, the way I interpreted her behavior, with her advance on him at the end, she was so traumatized by everything that had happened at Camp Omega that even though the circumstances were forced, what happened with Chico was at least an embrace from someone who loved her. She's really out of it at that point, so I don't take her inappropriate advance on him as really reflecting her. Instead, I see it as her gravitating toward comfort -- emotional comfort, any kind of comfort -- at a time when she is feeling like hell.
In other words, both Chico and Paz are incredibly broken at that point. Both are like shells of their former selves. It's really sad, and made Skull Face more convincingly evil, IMO.
The problem is, his "evil" piques in GZ. I mean, the experiments on the Africans are horrible, too, but the way it's depicted is so mild compared to the rape tapes in GZ, where they leave so much to your imagination and it's more horrifying for it.
I actually thought the aftermath was well-done. Chico truly loved Paz. He wasn't looking to get into her pants; he was looking for true love. And Skull Face took that and violated his sense of intimacy with her by making it something carnal, something forceful, something voyeuristic. There are all sorts of fucked-up layers at work there. You feel horrible for Chico. He is understandably shellshocked.
And then Paz, the way I interpreted her behavior, with her advance on him at the end, she was so traumatized by everything that had happened at Camp Omega that even though the circumstances were forced, what happened with Chico was at least an embrace from someone who loved her. She's really out of it at that point, so I don't take her inappropriate advance on him as really reflecting her. Instead, I see it as her gravitating toward comfort -- emotional comfort, any kind of comfort -- at a time when she is feeling like hell.
In other words, both Chico and Paz are incredibly broken at that point. Both are like shells of their former selves. It's really sad, and made Skull Face more convincingly evil, IMO.
The problem is, his "evil" piques in GZ. I mean, the experiments on the Africans are horrible, too, but the way it's depicted is so mild compared to the rape tapes in GZ, where they leave so much to your imagination and it's more horrifying for it.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Series went fan fiction when it was Metal Gear Solid 4: Fanfiction of the Patriots
But yeah, cut/unfinished story will leave you wanting more.
Still waiting for Shenmue (only 2 decades until I get a follow up)
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Thanks for the reply! Even though I still have big problems with V, this theory at least justifies the twist pretty well. Unfortunately I'm not sure Kojima thought of it, but maybe he did intentionally leave the ending to interpretation, so this is mine. We'll never see Big Boss' descent into true madness, and this game was really a side story with little direct impact, but Venom is an interesting form of a "blank slate" character, and is pretty tragic in a way.
It also makes sennse why he didn't go for revenge all the time or so anything really that bad at all. I see the nuke ending as canon with him, and that before Big Boss takes advantage of him, the medic comes through and manages to dismantle all the nukes leading into MG1. I also see his dialogue at the end referencing "Boss" not as "BB" but "the Boss". There's a memorial quotation honoring her on the statue. BB had already renounced her so I definitely see this as Venom's interpretation of the Boss' will, his "sense" of her impact on Naked Snake, before Big Boss overrides Venom's actions and suppresses his "sense" in order to make him a better pawn.
I used to be annoyed that if Venom was supposed to be a BB "clone" why he didn't still fall to depravity and madness as was implied in the marketing, but this makes good sense of it. He never had his heart in it, he just wanted to repair the world.
Yup. "I have to drive out this demon inside me, build a better future. That's what I, huh, what WE will leave as our legacy. Another mission... Right Boss?"
He didn't know it at the time, but the demon wasn't his personal inner darkness, but his programming to "follow what BB would do". I definitely see this scene as pre "The Truth", and once he learns it, he can't stop from becoming BB's pawn. Left to his own devices he rids the world of nukes for a brief time and probably even clears BB's name for him to join Foxhound. What a tragic figure, he understood the Boss' will better than anyone besides Solid decades later.
Edit:
FTFY
Ok, you didn't strengthen your argument. Let's just say that you should keep in mind that "rape as weapon of war" means something more than just rape in war. It's a term for multiple issues, but none involve the Quiet situation. Just so you know, and let's move back to the main topic of the side-topic.
Yes. Rape has happened in war, no doubt about that. Could that situation happen in a war? Yes, it could. However what we are talking about is the botched narrative. This is a work of fiction and every scene has to serve a purpose. This scene was totally disconnected and just a stock event that happens in media around soldiers. It's not talked about, it wasn't lead up, it wasn't something that was ever spoken again off. A meaningless shock element. The scene already had the drowning that build reasonable tension for the player and worked both as supposed threat for Quiet and as plot element to give her back strength. Rape is not something you should throw in as petty window dressing, it should serve a purpose as part of the whole narrative work. It doesn't here.
Skullface. He was the head of XOF and since Cipher didn't particularly cared for this arm, SF had free reign. The attack was completely on his terms. Cipher as a whole had nothing to do with it. Cipher had barely anything to do with the hospital. That was SAS with old contacts of Zero himself.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
The birthday scene is so sad lol
the creepy laughs
the (continued) sexual tension between Ocelot and VS
the weird song
the terrible sound of an audience clapping when there's like three guys
bravo
the creepy laughs
the (continued) sexual tension between Ocelot and VS
the weird song
the terrible sound of an audience clapping when there's like three guys
bravo
That is exactly what it is, a terrible thing that makes a person feel violated and lingers in the mind and body for a long, long time to come.
So yeah, I thought it was screwed up and really felt for Quiet, especially due to the circumstances under which she got into that situation.
StevieWhite
Member
Using rape to establish a realistic wartime atmosphere is a purpose.
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
I feel like he does it after talking to Big Boss, while back on the ship. He'd obviously prepared himself before hand and just had to go through the final phase after making sure they were safe. When you tranq Ocelot, he says "2+2=5", which, as we know from Doublespeak, is an example of making people believe an illusion. Could just be a Kojima easter egg from 1984, but maybe not.
I feel like the trigger to wake him up, or make him snap out of hypnosis, is the sound from the "Operation Intrude N313" tape. When V smashes the mirror, we see that it's in Outer Heaven. Then, the credits roll, and we hear Ocelot talking to Miller. I feel like this takes place either in Outer Heaven during Solid Snake's infiltration (hence all the bombs going off and gunfire), or slightly before during Grey Fox's infiltration. That's when Big Boss gives the call for Venom to take his place to take the fall, and Ocelot and Miller leave and go their separate ways.
---
I'm so god damn interested in what happens to Ocelot during all this. I would've waited another year for this game if it meant getting the complete story.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
How does Ocelot tell Big Boss that he also is in love with Venom ?
I see, this is the reason he got killed by Snake. It all makes sense now. Big jelly Boss played everybody like a damn guitar. Damn. Kojima.
I see, this is the reason he got killed by Snake. It all makes sense now. Big jelly Boss played everybody like a damn guitar. Damn. Kojima.
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