Wouldn't a disease by its very definition be an indirect method?
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[SPOILERS] Dangan Ronpa 2 Spoiler Thread | Aloha, Despair!
- Thread starter Nachos
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In the context of the situation that's like saying a knife is an indirect method of killing
It's closer to giving someone a knife they can kill with
dakkumauji
Member
Forgot to mention this last night, but IF is amazing and it is my accepted canon from now on.
Yes, who cares if this invalidates this game, I'm leaning towards Island Mode being the new canon anyway!
Yes, who cares if this invalidates this game, I'm leaning towards Island Mode being the new canon anyway!
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I would be quite ok with a split canon, anything for more mukuro
Well they are two seperate alternate universes so both the main story and IF are canon. Just in two different universes.
More like taking a sane person, forcing them to become insanely murderous, and THEN giving them the knife. Mikan would not have done it if Monokuma hadn't had to change her personality to do so.
dakkumauji
Member
It doesn't make Island Mode completely impossible though!
No it doesn't. At least from what I remember. Just because Junko's still alive doesn't mean that the DR1 cast can't join the future foundation and try to convert the DR2 cast into their pre-despair self. The plan to turn "everyone" into Junko can still proceed even with Junko alive/in hiding.
IF being canon would be neat, but I do prefer the reality we have now in the games, even if all of my favorite characters are either full on dead, in a coma, or deleted.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
I see. Hmm, then there may have been the possibility of Mikan having another kind of disease and thus not any killing happen if the students kept going according to plan. On other hand, I still think the motive in general is bad because....
And because of that anyone having the remembering disease and becoming Ultimate Despair would obviously resort into a murder. In my view, it's basically like Monokuma forcing whoever person got that disease to kill.
But then what about chapter 4? Was Gundham's motivation also poor because, at its core, the murder was forced by Monokuma? Chapter 2 is the same, but to a lesser degree.
Though, I can kind of see your point. Aside from chapter 2, chapter 4 was more open-ended than chapter 3 where whoever had obtained that disease would specifically be the blackened.
IMO yes it was poor. In the first game, he gave reasons to make the students more inclined to kill. In the second, he basically forced them to murder. Not as much twisted psychology went into it.
dakkumauji
Member
At the same time it make sense for Monokuma's motive. First game Monokuma was to spread despair. Second game Monokuma was more like hurry up and kill each other, I got bodies to take over.
Crash Station
Member
Not necessarily. It could always be a kill in self-defense against the person that got the disease.
Oh, I've stated several times in this thread that I preferred Monokuma's "motives" in DR1 to DR2 because they were more psychologically oriented than forced and targeted like in DR2, but I think DR2's were mostly fine on an individual basis (except for maybe Peko, who killed Mahiru for nothing).
Sure, there are probably other scenarios they could have come up around someone remembering their past based on the despair disease. Yeah, given that, I'm even less convinced that it was bad, by itself.
Not when Monokuma controls who gets what disease and when
How? I can't think of anything if IF that conflicts with 2, you don't need Junko dead for it to work
I don't think "you're all going to die if someone doesn't kill" is weak, honestly
I don't believe so, because the whole concept of the killing games is that the Situation forces the students to murder. The difference is that the despair disease is a direct manipulation of the player's mindstate rather than a situational manipulation of context.
I disagree with this. Like dakkumauji states above, the purpose of DR1's killing game and DR2's killing game were completely different, hence the difference in motives and how blatant DR2's were compared to the first game's. The despair disease reflects that, as does trapping everyone inside the funhouse; Monokuma would have probably loved it had everyone just starved to death.
To me, forcing everyone inside the funhouse without food or water is just as directly manipulative as the despair disease.
Ah, that I agree with. Like you said, though, the rule is probably vague enough to allow something like a "disease" (albeit artificial) to affect the characters.
I'm not talking about intent though. I'm talking about the supposed built in rules which JunkoAI couldn't modify about not being able to directly interfere with the students. Admittedly the wording is vague enough to allow the loophole, but the idea that Monokuma can just flick a switch in someone's brain that says "Now you're evil" and in that way set up the murder seems antithetical to the restriction
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
Yeah, I think the motive in Chapter 4 was also poor in the fact that they would all die anyways so it would force someone to do it (probably worse than 3 in that way), but I think that the way the handled that issue with the Gundham and Nekomaru confrontation.made it worth it and not bad. Hmm, I always thought of Chapter 2 wasn't like 3 or 4 since it was entirely optional to play the game, but now that I think about it, you're right since the motive was only effective if Fuyuhiko or Peko played it, huh.
I agree with Rubedo, but what dakkumauji says makes sense too. But even if it does makes sense for the villain's motives in a way, it sucks for the game's quality.
I would be more okay with Chapter 3's motive if that's what happened.
Maybe not weak, but lazy? At least compared to others.
That's not quite right.
Monokuma didn't flick a switch to make them evil, he introduced a virus that (among many things) had the ability to give a student their memories back. (which if you remembered, he promised he would do). The word "evil" doesn't exactly factor here. Remember:
The Rule said:
Giving them their memories back doesn't exactly run counter to that. Their desire to murder someone is all on them. That's why it's a memory virus, rather than some "psycho killer" virus. Monokuma's culpable, but he's not directly interfering Mikan. It just so happens that her actions benefit him because she's a part of the Ultimate Despair. It really comes down to how you define "directly interfering", but i'd argue that all of his motives have some degree of direct interference.
If anything, Chapter 4 seems like a bigger breach in rules.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
Well Monokuma obviously knew that: getting memories back = Ultimate Despair = Psycho Killer. He did it for that reason. But you're right. The way Monokuma managed to avoid the rule is clever.
Hmmm, I wonder, what would have happened if Monokuma did gave all of the students their memories back? Wouldn't it have been easier for him? That would crash the Hope Restoration program, and if Junko needed less than a half of them I believe they would gladly commit murder/suicide for her (well maybe except for Izuru, Nagito and Chiaki).
Edit: Oh my, there's a junior with this image as their avatar
dakkumauji
Member
Edit: Oh my, there's a junior with this image as their avatar
Eh, not really spoilery about that cause really by the time you know why that's a spoiler, it's not a spoiler anymore
Unless it leads to someone believing Nagito is actually the Ultimate Lancer or something
Eh, not really spoilery about that cause really by the time you know why that's a spoiler, it's not a spoiler anymore
Unless it leads to someone believing Nagito is actually the Ultimate Lancer or something
It's also really badly resized, it took me a second to see what was going on in the picture. I think it should be fine.
Hmmm. Convincing argument, I suppose.
Hours Left
Member
Well, you do see the spears before the murder. I think it's pushing it. (Plus seeing any DR character wielding a weapon would be a big red flag to me personally.)Eh, not really spoilery about that cause really by the time you know why that's a spoiler, it's not a spoiler anymore
Unless it leads to someone believing Nagito is actually the Ultimate Lancer or something
I would hope that fans wouldn't want to spoil newcomers to the series, but I'm shocked by the amount of spoilers for these games that are just thrown around on the net. Those gifs I mentioned a while back were of Chiaki's freaking endgame speech. >_<
dakkumauji
Member
/dead
The three consistent things about Dangan Ronpa are:
1) Murders
2) Junko's involvement
3) The fanbase's complete lack of restraint on spoilers
I'm pretty sure the Despair comes as a result of the first three.
dakkumauji
Member
What, no love for seeing a Togami in every Danganronpa related work?
and giving Feep a job, lol
I greatly anticipate the arrival of Robot meido Togami.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
I think it has the same effect as someone wearing an avatar of Sayaka holding a knife covered in blood. Specially since Nagito acts normal the beginning of the game.Eh, not really spoilery about that cause really by the time you know why that's a spoiler, it's not a spoiler anymore
Unless it leads to someone believing Nagito is actually the Ultimate Lancer or something
Don't forget Togami.
cj_iwakura
Member
I made 'Hey Hey' my text tone by turning the BGM volume down and saving before an instance, then recording it.
pls share
cj_iwakura
Member
Heh, would if I could. It's a flip phone that stores it to local media. Maybe if I ever get a micro SD, I can transfer stuff from it.
dakkumauji
Member
Then again, every Danganronpa related avatar pretty much has some level of spoilers to it. I think that one is fine mostly cause it's only spoilerish if you really think about it and start picking it. And by then, you are probably just asking for it.
Maybe I'm just jelly no one complained about my avatars being spoilerish (fake or not).
I don't recall any that seem spoilerish. Any examples you want to put a spotlight on?Then again, every Danganronpa related avatar pretty much has some level of spoilers to it. I think that one is fine mostly cause it's only spoilerish if you really think about it and start picking it. And by then, you are probably just asking for it.
Maybe I'm just jelly no one complained about my avatars being spoilerish (fake or not).
He had a hypothetical mastermind Ishimaru avatar at one point.
dakkumauji
Member
I would assume underwear lover Hajime would cause some problem to raise some questions too~
There's not really any context for it and the most you can really infer is that Hajime goes on a panty-raid. It's pretty much the opposite of spoilery.
Honestly, that just struck me as Rule-34-ish
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
Yeah, I find it weird that no one complained about it, but I guess no one knew how would the mastermind act or look like.
Nah, I would just brush it as some fanart. Like, there's this crazy chick on facebook who is crazy about KomaHIna but I obviously never believed it would come true.
Ignoring his FTE
dakkumauji
Member
I'll try harder next time.
I was thinking of replaying the first game but I have so much on my plate already.
Someone has to give despair to the despair-givers!
I'll try harder next time.
Someone has to give despair to the despair-givers!