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[Jest Chillin]

I thought the whole shtick of Jedi was that they let go of their feelings and become emotionless focused masters of the force? He actually did the opposite of what Yoda said and kept Padme in his heart and mind and let the anger consume him when she died. Let go means to sever ties emotionally does it not?

I think throughout the series it bounces around a bit with the emotions but I thought that was the general idea of it.

It's more that strong emotional ties to others provide a weakness both in the usual sense (hostages/traps) but also in that if anything does happen to them, that emotional tie can result in clouded judgement which can lead to actions that put you on the path to the Darkside. Anger, vengeance, jealousy, etc...

 

[BreezyLimbo]

In context of women and the Star Wars universe, you can't NOT talk about it.

If I'm talking about the narrative and thinking about where the characters will go, whether Finn has the Force or Rey has some Dark in her, yes I can not talk about it. If I was talking about the cultural impact of the film and how the characters are a step forward for representation, that's a whole different discussion.

I mean...I'm talking purely about the story and the possible narrative it can take. Not about the cultural impact or how society views the film and its characters being minorities.

It may seem insensitive, but you're trying to discuss something different. After all, you did assume my gender, and tried to inject this 'Oh because she's a girl' narrative into one of my responses when I meant no such thing.

 

[Veelk]

I wish I could add something to the representation discussion, but everyone's said basically everything I would say anyway. How annoying of all of you.

Yeah, the reason we can have male white heroes run the full gamat is because we have enough of them that we know we can't generalize whiteness and maleness into association with any particular characteristic. This is simply not true for minorities.

If we lived in a world where women and black people have had equal representation with white people, then Rey falling into the dark side would be an interesting idea like it would be for a white male falling into the dark side. But we don't. With Rey, Star Wars is essentially setting the "default' image of women as protagonists. It wouldn't be the same thing as seeing Anakin fall into the dark side, because we have Luke who stayed in the light.

Give it a couple decades, and if SW has the impact we hope it has, representation will increases and these issues won't be a concern. But until then, they are.

 

[The Librarian]

If I'm talking about the narrative and thinking about where the characters will go, whether Finn has the Force or Rey has some Dark in her, yes I can not talk about it. If I was talking about the cultural impact of the film and how the characters are a step forward for representation, that's a whole different discussion.

I mean...I'm talking purely about the story and the possible narrative it can take. Not about the cultural impact or how society views the film and its characters being minorities.

It may seem insensitive, but you're trying to discuss something different. After all, you did assume my gender, and tried to inject this 'Oh because she's a girl' narrative into one of my responses when I meant no such thing.

I'm not, actually. The idea of Rey going to the Dark Side goes hand in hand with her place in the SW franchise.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

So Maz is a force sensitive untrained who is 1000 years old. She uses the force I believe when looking into Rey's eyes and she actively says she knows the force but is not a jedi.

How did she avoid being killed by Vader and his men? I always assumed Obi Wan was allowed to live and raise Luke as some sort of Palpatine master plan and Yoda was shielded by the planet.

 

[Jest Chillin]

So Maz is a force sensitive untrained who is 1000 years old. She uses the force I believe when looking into Rey's eyes and she actively says she knows the force but is not a jedi.

How did she avoid being killed by Vader and his men? I always assumed Obi Wan was allowed to live and raise Luke as some sort of Palpatine master plan and Yoda was shielded by the planet.

I don't think it's necessarily forgone that Maz is Force sensitive. Knowing of The Force and knowing the ideals of the Jedi don't mean she's Force sensitive. Just being 1000 years old means she's probably seen some shit and is quite knowledgeable if not wise.

 

[LegendofLex]

I don't think it's necessarily forgone that Maz is Force sensitive. Knowing of The Force and knowing the ideals of the Jedi don't mean she's Force sensitive. Just being 1000 years old means she's probably seen some shit and is quite knowledgeable if not wise.

In a deleted scene that as far as I know still shows up in the novelization, she uses the Force to help Han and Chewie escape the wreckage of her castle.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm not, actually. The idea of Rey going to the Dark Side goes hand in hand with her place in the SW franchise.

And your assumption is that there is no redemption to be had from the Dark Side. You assume that the second she goes dark side, she stops being this role model despite the possibility of her coming back to the dark side.

Again, there would be nothing wrong if they explored it.

 

[sphagnum]

I don't think it's necessarily forgone that Maz is Force sensitive. Knowing of The Force and knowing the ideals of the Jedi don't mean she's Force sensitive. Just being 1000 years old means she's probably seen some shit and is quite knowledgeable if not wise.

The visual dictionary confirms that she's Force sensitive.

 

[LegendofLex]

And your assumption is that there is no redemption to be had from the Dark Side. You assume that the second she goes dark side, she stops being this role model despite the possibility of her coming back to the dark side.

The problem with this is that there are many stereotypes about women/minorities having bad qualities by default that they need to be rid of (redeemed of) to become "good women/good minorities."

Now imagine playing out this stereotype in the story arc for the first Jedi heroine in Star Wars.

 

[Veelk]

And your assumption is that there is no redemption to be had from the Dark Side. You assume that the second she goes dark side, she stops being this role model despite the possibility of her coming back to the dark side.

Again, there would be nothing wrong if they explored it.

Again, on an individual character basis, no, there wouldn't be. But being a representational figure for women everywhere changes it.

You want the character to be considered without having to worry about representation? Great, me too. First we need to make representation not an issue, not ignore it as an issue.

 

[Jest Chillin]

In a deleted scene that as far as I know still shows up in the novelization, she uses the Force to help Han and Chewie escape the wreckage of her castle.

Ah ok. Interesting.

It's still not far fetched that she could've survived Vader's hunts. Obi Wan and Yoda did and Vader knew them both personally to be able to really hunt them down.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The problem with this is that there are many stereotypes about women/minorities having bad qualities by default that they need to be rid of (redeemed of) to become "good women/good minorities."

Now imagine playing out this stereotype in the story arc for the first Jedi heroine in Star Wars.

I mean, it's already shown that Rey is prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

Her going Dark side really isn't all that farfetched.

Again, on an individual character basis, no, there wouldn't be. But being a representational figure for women everywhere changes it.

You want the character to be considered without having to worry about representation? Great, me too. First we need to make representation not an issue, not ignore it as an issue.

And that's a different discussion, about whether her and Finn being minorities will affect the story telling in the sequels. That's if we take this societal context and if it'll override the characters as they are laid out, and whether the writers are taking that into consideration writing the next films. What I'm talking about is about how the Star Wars film lore can be fleshed out through something like Rey mastering both Light and Dark. You're talking about the societal impact Rey is having as a female representative. Different things.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Again, on an individual character basis, no, there wouldn't be. But being a representational figure for women everywhere changes it.

You want the character to be considered without having to worry about representation? Great, me too. First we need to make representation not an issue, not ignore it as an issue.

I just want minorities/women to have the freedom to fail and not have it reflected back on their race/gender.

 

[Veelk]

I mean, it's already shown that Rey is prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

Her going Dark side really isn't all that farfetched.

Dude, it's not about her as an individual character.

I just want minorities/women to have the freedom to fail and not have it reflected back on their race/gender.

The solution is still the same: Give them a wealth of representations.

You can't reflect a failure back on race if you have a wealth of examples of minorities not committing that failure. Then it's just that character. The solution is to have a bunch of characters that make generalization into any one thing impossible. The same way any white person can't be generalized into representational of all white people.

 

[LegendofLex]

I mean, it's already shown that Rey is prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

She kills a grand total of three characters, all of whom posed a direct threat to her and her friends.

She's cocksure, but so were Han and Luke; it didn't make them evil or in need of redemption. Why should it for Rey?

I just want minorities/women to have the freedom to fail and not have it reflected back on their race/gender.

Rey has had plenty of freedom to make mistakes.

That doesn't mean she has a responsibility to be a figure who needs to be redeemed.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I mean, it's already shown that Rey is prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

Her going Dark side really isn't all that farfetched.

Wait what? Where is that shown?

 

[Toxi]

So Maz is a force sensitive untrained who is 1000 years old. She uses the force I believe when looking into Rey's eyes and she actively says she knows the force but is not a jedi.

How did she avoid being killed by Vader and his men? I always assumed Obi Wan was allowed to live and raise Luke as some sort of Palpatine master plan and Yoda was shielded by the planet.

Because she's not a Jedi and doesn't use the Force much. Also, being a powerful figure with lots of connections helped keep her safe.

Plenty of Force-sensitive people lived in the galaxy under the Empire; the Empire wiped out the Jedi, not anyone who can feel the Force.

 

[-griffy-]

Pulled from the other thread, but here's a VFX reel for the film that the Oscars got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlWiq84epH4&feature=youtu.be

Some enterprising individual could probably pull some decent gifs from the finished footage in the corner.

 

[The Librarian]

Dude, it's not about her as an individual character.

I was about to respond but you've done it for me.

Can't believe this has to be explained over and over again.

 

[Veelk]

She kills a grand total of three characters, all of whom posed a direct threat to her and her friends.

She's cocksure, but so were Han and Luke; it didn't make them evil or in need of redemption. Why should it for Rey?

Yeah, see, I totally missed that. Yes, Rey has killed when she hasn't needed to. But also yes, so have other characters, and it was never commented on. So why is that characteristic significant to Rey, but not Han or Luke?

And that's a different discussion, about whether her and Finn being minorities will affect the story telling in the sequels. That's if we take this societal context and if it'll override the characters as they are laid out, and whether the writers are taking that into consideration writing the next films. What I'm talking about is about how the Star Wars film lore can be fleshed out through something like Rey mastering both Light and Dark. You're talking about the societal impact Rey is having as a female representative. Different things.

Not really. Both are stories. The distinction your making is "What if we have Rey flesh out the universe in THIS way?" and ignoring how that will impact the audience. However, there are multiple ways to flesh out the universe without Rey having to go to the dark side. So you have to build the justification for why THAT way is particularly better than another way. And us having the justification of why that way might be harmful, it's relevant.

The only way it would be irrelevant is if they made Episode 8 and never released it. If that's what they were going to do, then, okay, yeah, I can accept it being solely about the story and how it impacts the audience is not a concern. In that hypothetical, the idea that it will badly impact culture is not a concern because no one will watch it.

But it IS going to be released world wide, watched by literally millions. It's a factor.

 

[Einchy]

Pulled from the other thread, but here's a VFX reel for the film that the Oscars got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlWiq84epH4&feature=youtu.be

Some enterprising individual could probably pull some decent gifs from the finished footage in the corner.

It'll be a shame if it doesn't win some technical Oscars at the very least.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

She kills a grand total of three characters, all of whom posed a direct threat to her and her friends.

She's cocksure, but so were Han and Luke; it didn't make them evil or in need of redemption. Why should it for Rey?

Han is also shown to have run away from home and abandoned Leia after their son went rogue, I wouldn't exactly call him a paragon of justice for doing that(And him going on the literal suicide run is probably his own way of making things right).

Wait what? Where is that shown?

Ghaleon explains it, but she could've avoided being captured if she didn't kill the guy who didn't know where she was.

Yeah, see, I totally missed that. Yes, Rey has killed when she hasn't needed to. But also yes, so have other characters, and it was never commented on. So why is that characteristic significant to Rey, but not Han or Luke?

If you want to talk about Luke killing people, he did overreact when Obi-Wan Force-disappeared and screamed out and killed people. And I suppose it's significant to Rey just like how Finn runs away from being a soldier, because that's what happens in this movie. But Lukes only in this movie for a total of what, 45 seconds? The most action we see of him is touching R2 in the flashback and him putting his cloak down. And him running away and looking for the temple I suppose.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You can't reflect a failure back on race if you have a wealth of examples of minorities not committing that failure. Then it's just that character. The solution is to have a bunch of characters that make generalization into any one thing impossible. The same way any white person can't be generalized into representational of all white people.

I agree, but it's going to take more than just representation in entertainment media. That doesn't discount the progress made.

 

[LegendofLex]

Han is also shown to have run away from home and abandoned Leia after their son went rogue, I wouldn't exactly call him a paragon of justice for doing that(And him going on the literal suicide run is probably his own way of making things right).

Yes, but importantly this isn't true in the original trilogy, where Han was given the magnificent opportunity to be 100% tall talk about not giving a shit about the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire and was actually a spotless (albeit, heavily indebted) good guy the entire time.

Not to mention that Han had a pretty good track record of getting the job done before his backstabbing black buddy showed up.

If you want to talk about Luke killing people, he did overreact when Obi-Wan Force-disappeared and screamed out and killed people.

He shouted out "no!" and then the bad guys turned around and started shooting at him.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Ghaleon explains it, but she could've avoided being captured if she didn't kill the guy who didn't know where she was.

I think it's a bit much to extrapolate that scene into an interpretation that she's prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

I mean, had she killed the two guys she beats down in the First Act, you'd have an argument but I don't think the scene described there showcases that.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yes, but importantly this isn't true in the original trilogy, where Han was given the magnificent opportunity to be 100% tall talk about not giving a shit about the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire.

Not to mention that Han had a pretty good track record of getting the job done before his backstabbing black buddy showed up.

Oh that's right, Han. I suppose one could bring up that whole 'Who shot first' ordeal because George Lucas wanted to make Han seem like a guy who wouldn't kill someone unless it was self defense? I suppose that figures into this discussion of 'Why doesn't anyone bring up Han indiscriminately killing'.

I think it's a bit much to extrapolate that scene into an interpretation that she's prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

I mean, had she killed the two guys she beats down in the First Act, you'd have an argument but I don't think the scene described there showcases that.

If she killed the first two guys in the first act, then at that point you realize that Jakku is a sort of wild west where shit happens and that having to kill to defend yourself is a normal event.

 

[Jackpot]

Is there anything special about the Finaliser? It seems to operate exactly like your standard ISD.

 

[LegendofLex]

Oh that's right, Han. I suppose one could bring up that whole 'Who shot first' ordeal because George Lucas wanted to make Han seem like a guy who wouldn't kill someone unless it was self defense? I suppose that figures into this discussion of 'Why doesn't anyone bring up Han indiscriminately killing'.

Because you're attaching a rather uncalled for significance to people offing bad guys who would otherwise have killed them and/or their friends in a movie titled "Star Wars."

 

[Boke1879]

I think it's a bit much to extrapolate that scene into an interpretation that she's prone to violence and kills when she doesn't need to.

I mean, had she killed the two guys she beats down in the First Act, you'd have an argument but I don't think the scene described there showcases that.

What Ghaleon was trying to show was Rey does shoe anger in those scenes though. She's not prone to violence.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Because she's not a Jedi and doesn't use the Force much. Also, being a powerful figure with lots of connections helped keep her safe.

Plenty of Force-sensitive people lived in the galaxy under the Empire; the Empire wiped out the Jedi, not anyone who can feel the Force.

I mean isn't one of the early plot points of TFA that the force is a myth. If lots of force users existed then how would that have even came about.

Sidious was paranoid of any force users ruining his domination.

The inquisitors where to be contacted the moment a force sensitive was located.

"Any Imperial officer who came into contact with Force-sensitive beings was to immediately contact an Inquisitor to investigate the situation."[star wars rebels episode 9]

"As the Empire expanded throughout the galaxy, and the Sith increased their hold over the cosmos, the Emperor sensed a new threat that could potentially rise against him. This threat, which Darth Vader referred to as the "children of the Force," came in the form of young Force-sensitives who the Emperor feared would rise up against the Empire. The Inquisitor was ordered to either turn these individuals to the dark side and eliminate them, along with any Jedi who could potentially train them. To that end, the Inquisitor carried out an operation known as Project Harvester to capture these young Force-sensitive beings"

 

[Toxi]

Is there anything special about the Finaliser? It seems to operate exactly like your standard ISD.

The Finalizer is bigger; at 2.9 kilometers, it's about twice as long as an ISD.

 

[Jest Chillin]

If she killed the first two guys in the first act, then at that point you realize that Jakku is a sort of wild west where shit happens and that having to kill to defend yourself is a normal event.

Not really. They attack her and try to steal the robot and she beats them down decisively. If she then decided to kill them for their transgression.. then ok.. that would support a "prone to violence and killing" angle. Jakku being a Wild West-esque place would only be expressed if we saw other, non-plot important characters killing or being willing to kill.

I.E. Mos Eisley Cantina on Tatooine

What Ghaleon was trying to show was Rey does shoe anger in those scenes though. She's not prone to violence.

Sure and I understand that. I'm not attributing the prone to violence angle to Ghaleon. The context of what's happening in that scene and what she's been through up to that point, doesn't support Breezy's stance is what I was saying.

 

[D6AMIA6N]

I challenge any Adam Driver hater to watch this weeks SNL, and tell me he isn't genuinely funny and a likable guy.

 

[LosDaddie]

She kills a grand total of three characters, all of whom posed a direct threat to her and her friends.

She's cocksure, but so were Han and Luke; it didn't make them evil or in need of redemption. Why should it for Rey?



Rey has had plenty of freedom to make mistakes.

That doesn't mean she has a responsibility to be a figure who needs to be redeemed.

Considering this is a Star Wars movie, having the main protagonist struggle between the light and dark sides has been a constant theme. Suggesting it would be interesting to see the new hero deal with the same struggle does not make a person sexist.

 

[Toxi]

I mean isn't one of the early plot points of TFA that the force is a myth. If lots of force users existed then how would that have even came about.

Because most Force sensitive people don't know they're actually Force-sensitive, like Rey, Luke, and Ezra at the beginning of their stories. And the ones who did know they were Force sensitive were smart enough to not broadcast it.

 

[The Librarian]

Yeah, see, I totally missed that. Yes, Rey has killed when she hasn't needed to. But also yes, so have other characters, and it was never commented on. So why is that characteristic significant to Rey, but not Han or Luke?

Because we don't have many female protagonists. When we do, they get scrutinized more.

So, it's because she's a girl.

 

[Hagi]

Does anyone have a picture or seen a picture of the statue of Maz that's on her castle? it looked like she was wearing the same kind of armor Obi Wan does in Clone Wars.

 

[LegendofLex]

Considering this is a Star Wars movie, having the main protagonist struggle between the light and dark sides has been a constant theme. Suggesting it would be interesting to see the new hero deal with the same struggle does not make a person sexist.

She's definitely going to tackle temptation and need to grow significantly to triumph in the end, just like Luke did.

What people are suggesting instead is that Rey should turn to the dark side and need to be redeemed, which is something that hasn't actually happened to any major hero in Star Wars that wasn't being set up the entire time for a villain's origin story.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Because you're attaching a rather uncalled for significance to people offing bad guys who would otherwise have killed them and/or their friends in a movie titled "Star Wars."

Just like you're trying to extrapolate the significance of her gender while I discuss the force and how I find it can take an interesting narrative if the trilogy showcases a person mastering both the Light and Dark side in a movie called "Star Wars"?

Like I said, how Rey is represented and what she decides to do in the sequels and how it affects societies view of a female lead is not the discussion I'm having here. Yes there is validity in worrying about showing a female lead go Dark Side and it being bad for a role model for women, but in a movie series where showing anger(Which Rey does) is a gateway to the dark side, and subsequently discussing that possibility of dark side in her, there is nothing wrong with wanting to see that series explore that path.

She's definitely going to tackle temptation and need to grow significantly to triumph in the end, just like Luke did.

What people are suggesting instead is that Rey should turn to the dark side and need to be redeemed, which is something that hasn't actually happened to any major hero in Star Wars that wasn't being set up the entire time for a villain's origin story.

How else would she master the dark side to master both light and dark? Hell, it could be written that she feigns being evil in order to learn master of Dark Force powers, and then does a heel-face turn.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Pulled from the other thread, but here's a VFX reel for the film that the Oscars got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlWiq84epH4&feature=youtu.be

Some enterprising individual could probably pull some decent gifs from the finished footage in the corner.

This is great.

I was surprised to see they added Kylo's mask as CGI in the first Snoke scene. It was interesting seeing what was actually practical in the Hux speech scene too.

 

[The Librarian]

Just like you're trying to extrapolate the significance of her gender

Nobody is extrapolating the significance of her gender. Her gender is significant. Not only across movies as a whole -- because female protagonists are quite rare! -- but because Star Wars has a no good, very bad, terrible, horrible, honest-to-god atrocious history of treating its female characters.

 

[Veelk]

Like I said, how Rey is represented and what she decides to do in the sequels and how it affects societies view of a female lead is not the discussion I'm having here. Yes there is validity in worrying about showing a female lead go Dark Side and it being bad for a role model for women, but in a movie series where showing anger(Which Rey does) is a gateway to the dark side, and subsequently discussing that possibility of dark side in her, there is nothing wrong with wanting to see that series explore that path.

But why do you assume that means she will go down that path? Luke struggled with the dark side too, but didn't go down it. I have no doubt they'll explore it because all star wars movies have done this. But that has little to do with partaking in the dark side.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

But why do you assume that means she will go down that path? Luke struggled with the dark side too, but didn't go down it. I have no doubt they'll explore it because all star wars movies have done this. But that has little to do with partaking in the dark side.

Because the last time we saw that in the movie, we got Anakin, and good lord he was insufferable. I refuse to watch the PT because of what an insufferable character he is. To get a character who already has shown a bigger range of emotion in one movie than Anakin did in 3, explore it(Being the dark side) in probably a better written way, would be a fun and interesting watch.

Yeah Luke kinda explored it, (And I'm sure if Neogaf and I existed 40 years ago I'd be arguing that he should go dark side in the sequels then as well) but not to the point I'd like.

 

[The Librarian]

Because the last time we saw that in the movie, we got Anakin, and good lord he was insufferable. I refuse to watch the PT because of what an insufferable character he is. To get a character who already has shown a bigger range of emotion in one movie than Anakin did in 3, explore it(Being the dark side) in probably a better written way, would be a fun and interesting watch.

Yeah Luke kinda explored it, (And I'm sure if Neogaf and I existed 40 years ago I'd be arguing that he should go dark side in the sequels then as well) but not to the point I'd like.

How would it be fun and interesting to watch?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Because we don't have many female protagonists. When we do, they get scrutinized more.

So, it's because she's a girl.

I've generally nodded to a lot of these kind of statements, though I have not been involved in this line of discussion much. But because my post (quoted by Breezy) was part of the discourse, I will note that I think TFA was making a specific point about Rey's character in the scene where she fires on the troopers. Specifically that she is impulsive and over confident and that can get her into hot water, as it does a few times.

Recall this exchange with Han:

It's verbally conveyed in a single scene.

Han: "Here, take this."
Rey: "I think I can handle myself."
Han: "I know you do, that's why I'm giving it to you."

Han: "You know how to use it?"
Rey: "Sure. You pull the trigger."
Han: "You've got a lot to learn."

Now look at how she uses the pistol for the first time:

1) Fires with the safety on
2) Misses her first shot (at both troopers, and then repeatedly when firing at Ren)
3) Decides to fire while hidden, rather than the much wiser course of action - hide

Han tells her she has a lot to learn when he gives her the gun. On her first use of it, she demonstrates that she has a lot to learn. It has nothing to do with Rey being female.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I don't think it's necessarily forgone that Maz is Force sensitive. Knowing of The Force and knowing the ideals of the Jedi don't mean she's Force sensitive. Just being 1000 years old means she's probably seen some shit and is quite knowledgeable if not wise.

It's one of the many "you need to read a tie-in because we didn't have time to convey it within the movie" thing.

 

[Veelk]

Because the last time we saw that in the movie, we got Anakin, and good lord he was insufferable. I refuse to watch the PT because of what an insufferable character he is. To get a character who already has shown a bigger range of emotion in one movie than Anakin did in 3, explore it(Being the dark side) in probably a better written way, would be a fun and interesting watch.

Yeah Luke kinda explored it, (And I'm sure if Neogaf and I existed 40 years ago I'd be arguing that he should go dark side in the sequels then as well) but not to the point I'd like.

But that didn't make it any less of a compelling narrative, obviously. And that's the goal here, to make a compelling narrative. I like the idea that's bounced around that Rey will reject the ideals the Jedi had and forge her own path. I hope they go with that. But Rey going down in the dark side is neither a prerequisite nor is necessary, and it will have more negative consequences than positive even if it's as well written as it could be, because stories aren't isolated bubbles that exist in a void. They affect us. It's cool that you want to see an exploration of the dark side, but give consideration to the time and place and character. Rey's journey in the movies is not it.

Coincidentally, if you're interested in seeing Luke go down the dark side, there is some EU novels that have him do exactly that, to the point where he is an advocate for torture. I don't know if they're well written, but they got to be better than the prequels. So, dark side exploration. There you go, if you want to see it so bad.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

How would it be fun and interesting to watch?

...because it would be a showcase of the nature of duality, and the range of character that an actor(Actress in this case) can showcase, whilst invoking turmoil in the story? And then if that character, through mastering both sides is able to bring balance in a way that her predecessor couldn't?

But that didn't make it any less of a compelling narrative, obviously. And that's the goal here, to make a compelling narrative. I like the idea that's bounced around that Rey will reject the ideals the Jedi had and forge her own path. I hope they go with that. But Rey going down in the dark side is neither a prerequisite nor is necessary, and it will have more negative consequences than positive even if it's as well written as it could be, because stories aren't isolated bubbles that exist in a void. They affect us. It's cool that you want to see an exploration of the dark side, but give consideration to the time and place and character. Rey's journey in the movies is not it.

Coincidentally, if you're interested in seeing Luke go down the dark side, there is some EU novels that have him do exactly that, to the point where he is an advocate for torture. I don't know if they're well written, but they got to be better than the prequels. So, dark side exploration. There you go, if you want to see it so bad.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough, but yeah I want Rey to be a mastery of both Light and Dark. And to me, the only way you master Dark is if you dabble in it. From a cultural viewpoint, yes it can be harmful to show the female lead go down the evil route to be redeemed by someone else. The way I see it though, is that she pretty much overpowers Lukes training because she's tapping into that dark in her, not to turn evil, but to strengthen her own mastery of the Force. To accomplish something that Luke obviously failed seeing as how his padawan betrayed and destroyed what he was trying to do.

The most basic way would be for her to turn her to the dark side, to receive training from Snoke or even Ren. If you want to get complex, Luke teaches her that you need a balance of both, that like him she is being trained from an older age than what a Jedi would've been trained. Luke teaches her some Dark Side tricks, she masters this and applies it to her pool of training, and in conjunction with both she electrifies her lightstaff and kills kylo ren. Or something like that.

Basically, it would be taking the duality of the Force, the duality of good and evil, and mastering both, not as a naive Jedi, not as a cunning Sith, but as a powerful something else.

 

[LegendofLex]

Just like you're trying to extrapolate the significance of her gender while I discuss the force and how I find it can take an interesting narrative if the trilogy showcases a person mastering both the Light and Dark side in a movie called "Star Wars"?

The association between women and darkness/evil is not something that I've extrapolated; it's something that's been present in religion, philosophy, literature, art, and society since ancient times and that has consequently led to women being considered subordinate, as holding lesser positions of prestige in society compared to men, as deviant compared to men who are paragons of what it means to be human.

http://www.friesian.com/gender.htm

Beginning with the proposition that Luke (the traditional male hero archetype) was already established as a good, upright, and virtuous hero in the OT, having Rey do anything but live up to his legacy - and she's already doing so in her own, perhaps even more poignant way - would repeat this pattern all over again (she would then fit the archetype of the deviant woman who needs to be redeemed) and erase any potential she has to be a symbol of a shift away from that paradigm.

Contrary to being an "interesting narrative," it would be a completely uninteresting and sadly predictable narrative.

The better narrative would be to give her different choices than Luke had, which is something we've already seen happen; Luke always had Obi-Wan's words coming down to guide him, while Rey has had to make all her choices based purely on faith. That's a positively astounding shift that makes Rey an even better Luke than Luke himself was, while forcing her to get there through more deeply personal struggles and more desperate circumstances.

What's not exciting about that?

Disagree. Leia is great in the OT.

Leia is in constant need of saving by male protagonists, is generally depicted as naggy, and is explicitly sexualized in ROTJ.