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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

W

W_Dreamer

Member
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?



So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
 
B

bearythebear

Member
Why are people just straight jumping to the conclusion that Rey is a Skywalker who trained with Luke as a youngling. As far as I'm aware there isn't any strong evidence for this theory

Just seems like one of those things where if enough people say it, it's automatically true.
 
T

Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

Member
Bobby Roberts said:
Yeah, but it almost doesn't matter because when it's pointed out that Kasdan doesn't even know what a Plagueis is, and Abrams flat out denied Plagueis has anything to do with The Force Awakens, people go "yeah, but he lied about Khan" and try to kick the idea back into play.
Click to expand...

Haven't JJ And Kasdan pretty much said they don't know where the plot is going to go anyway? That they are leaving up to the next team?
 
W

Window

Member
The only intended (but very obvious) surprise being set up in that scene I can think of is that the sabre dashes towards Rey instead of Ren even though it was Ren pulling it (and Rey was down).
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Subpar Spatula said:
Still a twist, surprise, etc or whatever you want to call it. They hid what she really is in the marketing. Doesn't exactly play out as a surprise or twist but it is one even if they gradually warm up to it. Which makes it a bad surprise and a moment you can see coming from a mile away (or when she first gets established as the main character).
Click to expand...
The entire reason you can see it coming is because it's not intended to be a twist.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?

g330RFs


So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Kylo Ren is pretty weak. He's a jobber because the people he does fight he does poorly against. His mentioned accomplishments make him cool but they failed to make him cool on screen.
 
E

ED Cantu

Member
robotrock said:
Ben Solo is a dumb name
Click to expand...
I don't think it's dumb but I still don't understand why Han and Leia would name their son after Obi-Wan, for Han he was just a crazy old man and Leia never crossed a word with him, unless Luke is Ben's godfather and he chose the name or something.
 
F

Fancy Clown

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Still a twist, surprise, etc or whatever you want to call it. They hid what she really is in the marketing. Doesn't exactly play out as a surprise or twist but it is one even if they gradually warm up to it. Which makes it a bad surprise and a moment you can see coming from a mile away (or when she first gets established as the main character).
Click to expand...

It's just setting up the heroes journey for her, and doing it without exposition. You could either A) not have any lead up to it and play it as a twist, or B) just have it come much earlier and have them outright say it. I'm not a fan of either method. How they did it was perfect, gradually showing the awakening of the force in her so that you got what was going on, and without it all happening at once with a *bam she's actually a jedi!*
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
aliengmr said:
The problem with that theory is there is:

1. There was very little reason to abandon her in the first place.

2. No reason not to say anything about it when they meet.

3. There is no reason not to inform the audience of Leia's inexplicable decision to ignore her own daughter.

4. Perhaps most importantly, Leia didn't have a parental reaction to her. She didn't even tell Han to bring her back, just their son. Finn is like the only one intent on saving her. At that point Leia had no fucks to give about Rey.
Click to expand...

1. Her first son turned to the dark side and her husband (?) just ran away. Not the greatest moment to raise another child. As I said, soap operish, but SW is a space soap opera.

2&3. That's not how the movies work. Obviously Rey's origin is the big unveiling for Episode VIII.

4. At that time Leia might have not known that Rey is her lost daughter. And Han didn't know about the daughter, so not a great way to break that news, isn't it?
 
T

Toxi

Banned
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?

So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Depends on Kylo Ren's state of mind, but I'd probably go with Luke. Ren shows more raw power when he feels he's in control, but he falls apart the moment he doesn't feel like he's in control, becoming a reckless, sloppy wreck. Plus, Luke wouldn't feel the same fear against him he would against Vader.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
flintstryker said:
No matter how I look at it, the only think I can think of that Vader had over the emperor or Luke was a cool voice
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone but Luke really knows the full truth about Palpatine, and other than just saying, "He was a gross bag of dicks and also an evil wizard" I don't think he'd be inclined to regale everyone with stories about how awesome his powers were.

Even in the original trilogy, you have Imperial officers referring to the Force as a pathetic, antiquated religion. The Emperor presumably is not known far and wide (or at all) for being a lightning-shitting dark sorcerer or master manipulator of feeble minds, to them he's just the guy who was protecting them from the tyranny of the Jedi noble caste and the corruption and incompetence of the Galactic Senate and whatever else.
 
H

Heartfyre

Member
Just saw it for the first time. I enjoyed it a bunch, but while I recognise there was a lot of mirroring of the original trilogy going on, I'm hoping that they don't phone in the threat again and just make a bigger Death Star. It relied upon the original trilogy too much, so I hope they're more experimental with Episode VIII. But they get a pass this time since it was executed so well. Abrams definitely knows Star Wars better than he knows Star Trek.

I don't doubt that, over the three threads, these sentiments have been raised already.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
Toxi said:
Depends on Kylo Ren's state of mind, but I'd probably go with Luke. Ren shows more raw power, but he falls apart the moment he doesn't feel in-control.
Click to expand...

Luke is leagues above Kylo Ren. If he isn't then how are the jedi and sith even feared or considered strong?
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?



So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Wait, why compare ESB Luke and not ANH Luke?
 
F

Fancy Clown

Member
ED Cantu said:
I don't think it's dumb but I still don't understand why Han and Leia would name their son after Obi-Wan, for Han he was just a crazy old man and Leia never crossed a word with him, unless Luke is Ben's godfather and he chose the name or something.
Click to expand...

They probably learned more about him in the interim and respected the fuck out of him and Jedi in general.
 
K

Kinokou

Member
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?

g330RFs


So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think his Vader worship might having influenced him or just a plain competitiveness. He is clearly more skilled in using the force but still doesn't probably to live up to the grand daddy reputation or to show them that he is better at the Light Saber game than his opponents.

bearythebear said:
Why are people just straight jumping to the conclusion that Rey is a Skywalker who trained with Luke as a youngling. As far as I'm aware there isn't any strong evidence for this theory

Just seems like one of those things where if enough people say it, it's automatically true.
Click to expand...

They have nice similarities being desert planet kids whisked into a great space adventure, kinda look alike as well as someone mentioned the idea that Anakins descendants keep fighting the battle of light and dark is also pretty neat.
 
I

injurai

Banned
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?
Click to expand...

I think he's about on par with RotJ luke. Luke only won because I think Vader stopped fighting as Luke started drawing on the dark side to beat him. He saw what he was turning Luke into, and he saw that if he was defeated the emperor would have his teeth in him.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
bearythebear said:
Why are people just straight jumping to the conclusion that Rey is a Skywalker who trained with Luke as a youngling. As far as I'm aware there isn't any strong evidence for this theory

Just seems like one of those things where if enough people say it, it's automatically true.
Click to expand...

There is no such evidence at all. I think people saw the vision as an indication that there is some mystery since in that vision we see her as a child calling to her parents as if it was a revelation, yet we already knew that.

We know she got dumped when she was 5 years old, way too young for any serious training. Then you have to add a mind wipe on top to explain why she wouldn't remember her training/force powers AND that she doesn't remember who her family is but there is never any indication that she doesn't remember them. It would be weird for her to explicitly wait for people she can't even remember, and for this to never be even brought up.

So far it sounds far more like she is what the movie says she is: a child who was abandoned by a family (which she remembers), for unknown reasons.

Where she lived before, and who her family are, why she was abandoned, that might be revealed later, but it doesn't have to tie in to Luke or Leia or Obi-Wan's own none-existing-children being her parents.

I'm sure it will be a plot point, but right now there is nothing. It's possible it wasn't even decided when VII was finished.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
KingSnake said:
1. Her first son turned to the dark side and her husband (?) just ran away. Not the greatest moment to raise another child. As I said, soap operish, but SW is a space soap opera.

2&3. That's not how the movies work. Obviously Rey's origin is the big unveiling for Episode VIII.

4. At that time Leia might have not known that Rey is her lost daughter. And Han didn't know about the daughter, so not a great way to break that news, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Leia said she should have never sent Ben away, so dumping Rey makes no sense.
 
M

Meowster

Member
W_Dreamer said:
Just wondering, how strong do people think Kylo Ren is?

He seems to be getting a lot of flak because a "stormtrooper janitor" actually cut him, and then get's beat by a "newbie force user" who just awakened her force powers for a day or so.

While at the end of the film Snoke finally reveals Kylo's training is indeed incomplete, it makes me wonder, considering Luke Skywalker in "Empire Strikes Back" was deemed in complete by Yoda as well, how would have the apprentice and padawan fared fighting against each other?



So Kylo Ren vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Kylo can freeze energy and time and would be uninjured, Luke still wouldn't have had any swordplay training unlike Rey or Finn, Kylo would easily cream him. Kylo's strength just feels so much lesser than what it really is because of just how messed up he was in that final fight. But even then, if Kylo Ren wanted to kill Rey instead of capture her, I could see it happening.
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
The Librarian said:
Rey grabbing the lightsaber is the best moment in Star Wars.
Click to expand...

This. I actually well up thinking about it and how amazing the audience reaction was to it at my midnight screening. The "Rey is a MarySue" haters can truly fuck the fuck off with their prequel defending bullshit! :p

I LOVED this film. Seen it twice only so far, but intend to see it at least a couple more times in the cinema. So fun, so full of heart and soul and comedy and bravery. It's touching. The new characters honestly are played pitch perfectly and have so much potential going forward.... BB-8 too... they could not have designed and brought to life a new droid that supercedes R2 in every way like that.. except they did!

Wow. Sure, it has a lot in common with A New Hope. I frankly could not care less when the film is this much fun and so heartwarming. I frankly think the detractors must all surely be on the autistic spectrum their nit picking of this film is beyond ridiculous, as if they're sitting there with a fucking checklist rather than actually watching and enjoying some AAA class entertainment, which is what this film delivers in spades.

It ain't perfect but fucking hell it is 10000000000 X better than The Phantom Fucking Menace, Attack of the Fucking Clones or Revenge of the Whiny Fucking Sith. Those films were awful, let's all accept, stop pretending they had enough redeeming features to make them worthy of the Star Wars name, and LET'S MOVE THE FUCK ON.

STAR WARS IS BACK.
 
W

W_Dreamer

Member
Subpar Spatula said:
Kylo Ren is pretty weak. He's a jobber because the people he does fight he does poorly against. His mentioned accomplishments make him cool but they failed to make him cool on screen.
Click to expand...

You do know he was shot by a rag-dolling blaster bolt from Chewie's Bowcaster right?

Toxi said:
Depends on Kylo Ren's state of mind, but I'd probably go with Luke. Ren shows more raw power when he feels he's in control, but he falls apart the moment he doesn't feel like he's in control, becoming a reckless, sloppy wreck. Plus, Luke wouldn't feel the same fear against him he would against Vader.
Click to expand...

Well, as best as he has shown without say the emotional turmoil of killing his father first. But true he can get angsty when things dont go his way too.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
Kylo is very powerful. Stopping a blaster in mid flight is something we've never seen, or heard of before.

I wonder if the Force can be factored in using certain methods. Like say for instance, someone who is Force Sensitive may not have the strongest ability to lift objects, but can persuade peoples thoughts easier? So Kylo is extremely knowledgeable on using the Force to steal people's memories, and holding objects (like he does with the blaster bolts, and pretty much holding Rey in place), but not so strong in combat.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
W_Dreamer said:
You do know he was shot by a rag-dolling blaster bolt from Chewie's Bowcaster right?
Click to expand...

Still a jobber in my books. Reminds me of the prequels where the clones kill the Jedi but they were doing some pretty powerful stuff just 10 minutes ago. Either they were always complete jobbers or they were weakened because the story needed them to.


Why don't Jedi and Sith fly around? They can lift some pretty heavy stuff... so why not fly around like Chronicle?
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Ether_Snake said:
Leia said she should have never sent Ben away, so dumping Rey makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I will see the movie again on Thursday, so I don't remember exactly, but did she say that to Han on his return? Because I remember it being more like a general regret about their lost family and somehow her taking the blame for the whole thing. But that doesn't exclude a different decision on a different moment under different circumstances (as I said with Kylo turned to the dark side and Han running away).
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Subpar Spatula said:
Luke is leagues above Kylo Ren. If he isn't then how are the jedi and sith even feared or considered strong?
Click to expand...
Luke in The Empire Strikes Back wasn't a fully trained Jedi and hasn't yet shown feats comparable to Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren stopped a blaster bolt in midair, directly extracted information from Poe Dameron's mind, and froze people in place using the Force. He's really powerful, but it's clear he's only able to show such competence when he's in clear control of the situation. The moment he meets some real resistance, he becomes an emotional wreck.
 
Subpar Spatula

Subpar Spatula

Banned
Toxi said:
Luke in The Empire Strikes Back wasn't a fully trained Jedi and hasn't yet shown feats comparable to Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren stopped a blaster bolt in midair, directly extracted information from Poe Dameron's mind, and froze people in place using the Force. He's really powerful, but it's clear he's only able to show such competence when he's in clear control of the situation. The moment he meets some real resistance, he becomes an emotional wreck.
Click to expand...

Luke beat Vadar. The OT has crappy choreography and effects because of the time it was made. I would say a Jedi's true power is very similar to the PT or The Old Republic. Compared to them Kylo Ren is a complete jobber. He needs more training.
 
D

DedValve

Banned
Say it with me now

Finn x Poe is canon. Finn x Poe is canon.

We already got a black lead, a female lead. Lets get ourselves a gay old time with a gay old lead!

Kylo would probably be the gay one tho.
I'll take what I can get and won't complain.

Kylo also strikes me as someone stronger in the force than with a saber. And his constant struggle to actually stay AWAY from the light side makes me believe that if he focused more on the "light" side part of the force he would be a truly devestating 'force' (hehehe) to be reckoned with.

He throws severe temper tantrums but I think thats more of a side effect of trying to embrace the dark side too much to the point where acts how he thinks he should act if it'll draw him closer to the dark. But I've never heard of a dark side character actually deeply struggle with the light for long periods of time and with very little outside help (Anakin only felt it after he met Luke and it only really got strong in ROTJ where he kept referring to Luke as son). That plus he's not trained in the light side or at least wasn't trained very well.

Like imagine Kylo being trained by Yoda. Holy shit he'd be unstoppable. A calm, meditated Ren would slaughter. Meanwhile Rey definitely seems more of the fighter. I hope they focus more on her saber skills and on Kylos force skills for an awesome rivalry.

And who will open Kylo Rens heart to the light? Finn.
Finn x Kylo is also an acceptable substitute to the Finn x Poe headcanon thats already headcanon in my canonhead.
 
O

OrlanisWorks

Banned
ocesc said:
How are the chances of Rey using a differently colored Lightsaber in VIII?

Yellow, maybe?
Click to expand...

It'd be great if the actress got to choose the color. Yellow would be dope though.

Damn what a great movie. Favorite star wars at this time. Gotta wait for it to settle.
 
F

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Escape Goat said:
That doesnt scan with what weve seen of jedi training. Rey was a scrapper. Not a trained duelist.
Click to expand...

I don't remember Yoda ever teaching Luke how to fight, only to control his emotions, which would allow him a greater connection to the Force.

And having a better connection with the Force allows your movements to be guided by it, like when Luke told Ben when he deflected the blaster with his eyes covered.

Rey has had to "scrap" to survive. Her real world survival was greater than his classical training.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
KingSnake said:
I will see the movie again on Thursday, so I don't remember exactly, but did she say that to Han on his return? Because I remember it being more like a general regret about their lost family and somehow her taking the blame for the whole thing. But that doesn't exclude a different decision on a different moment under different circumstances (as I said with Kylo turned to the dark side and Han running away).
Click to expand...

She says Snoke lured Ben to the dark side and how she knew it was happening but didn't want to tell Han, and said that was why she wanted Ben to get trained with Luke. Then she says she would have never sent him away (to Luke).

Movies aren't written like that unless written poorly. Movie conventions tell us Rey is not Leia or Han's daughter from the way it was presented. The way things played out pretty much erase that possibility unless they have no idea what they're doing, which I doubt is the case with such a central character.
 
F

Farsi

Member
Saw it again last night without the crowd hype. Still loved the movie. For the all the shit I gave to the writing of Kylo Ren, nothing changed my mind even in the second viewing, but the final fight scene with Finn and Kylo was just soooo perfectly executed. I had the same goosebumps when Adam yelled TRAITOR! and Finn pulled out the saber. That entire sequence was just so epic because it was so well built up. Finn is such a fucking greatly paced character, they better not mess him up.

Loved Rey even more the second time around but still think she has no chemistry with Kylo, especially during their last fight. It wasn't very good.

The entire villain cast in the movie was still ass. I'm hoping the Knights of Ren can be more than just filler villains and have them be individuals. That's the only way I can see the villain cast working without it being forced.

Long live the snow forrest.
 
W

W_Dreamer

Member
nemss said:
Kylo is very powerful. Stopping a blaster in mid flight is something we've never seen, or heard of before.

I wonder if the Force can be factored in using certain methods. Like say for instance, someone who is Force Sensitive may not have the strongest ability to lift objects, but can persuade peoples thoughts easier? So Kylo is extremely knowledgeable on using the Force to steal people's memories, and holding objects (like he does with the blaster bolts, and pretty much holding Rey in place), but not so strong in combat.
Click to expand...

That's true. For instance, Luke uses the Force more with physical augmentation such increasing his agility, speed and strength (seen when he fought Vader), rather than long-range force abilities such as Kylo Ren.
 
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