Cool... I guess it's easy to say that this specific knowledge was lost with all the Jedis at the end of the Prequels...
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Cool... I guess it's easy to say that this specific knowledge was lost with all the Jedis at the end of the Prequels...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That sounds like a hyperbolic strawman. Just a tad.
Given the large number of people who were confused about the nature of the relationship between the New Republic, the Resistance, the Rebels, the Empire, and the First Order, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the film could have done better in that regard.
LegendofLex
Member
After the OT beat us senselessly over the head with the idea that success with the Force is a matter of faith and not skill basically every time Luke ran into trouble using it -
- I think that anyone who can't comprehend why Rey would beat Kylo in the end are simply incapable of understanding Star Wars.
I think there's definitely a reason why people are more confused with this film, especially since the relationship between the Republic and the two actual factions is pretty obscure, but honestly I think if you treat the New Republic/New Senate the way people did the Old Republic/Imperial Senate in the original film, you come away with a pretty good sense of the status quo just based on General Hux's speech.
Sorry I dont see any of that.
She mentions it, alluding to the abandonment issues, but I really don't see if affecting anything she does. It certainly doesn't affect her force savant power ups. She turns down the job offer from Han to go back, which has zero affect on her character as plot takes over. Maybe she was a little nervous when Finn was going to leave? That's all I can think off.
Not really a deep character effecting flaw. They could expand on that greatly in the next two movies, but there is nothing much in this one.
OricWindstar
Member
But I think that's the main problem. People keep throwing around the word training like it's some measurable way to tell how well someone will do in a duel. The duels (in the Original Trilogy, anyway) were more about the conversation of ideologies than actual swordsmanship. Yes, of course you need to explain enough as to why someone can hold their own, but I think they did that fine, in both that Rey has been self-sufficient her whole life and that Ren is both injured physically and emotionally.
Rey is a "noob" if she were to go take a Pop Quiz on Jedi Training, but she's doing quite well in the "trusting the force" and "not letting your emotions make you a fucking maniac" courses. Also, Snoke says bring Rey to me. What more do you need to know to show that he's not going for the kill shot?
More_Badass
Member
Saw the movie again and Han clearly knows about Rey. Too many guilty looks, nervous tone around her
AdmiralSnackbar
Member
The prequels made people think that Jedis had to be trained from when they were babies at a school doing dumb stuff like this. Glad they just ignored that bullshit.
I took that to mean that they had to start indoctrinating the kids into the Jedi mindset from an early age. If you start introducing magic mind powers to someone Anakin's age and they aren't 100% on board with your lifestyle things turn out bad
Like I said before, I believe that is the fault of the prequels.
That last Luke-Yoda exchange really is a perfect encapsulation of how misguided this debate has become. It's a shame that, for over a decade, midichlorian/power-level nonsense has infected the way a lot of people view the Star Wars universe. Thankfully this is one of the issues that JJ and company got absolutely right.
StopMakingSense
Member
One more thing that would have worked a lot better about TPM if they had just cast Anakin a few years older.
The Librarian
Banned
Aside from running away from Maz and the lightsaber? And letting Finn fight Kylo first?
LegendofLex
Member
As soon as shit gets realer than simply going with Finn to drop off BB-8 and then going home, she panics and runs away, literally and directly rejecting the idea of taking up the Force for the sake of good and deciding that this fight is too hard and she doesn't want any part of it.
She seems to accept that she won't find what she's looking for on Jakku, but then she isn't ready to accept what's coming to her instead, either - not until things come 'round to her protecting BB-8's secrets again and she finds a real and urgent need to tap into the Force to defend herself against Kylo.
But if she hadn't called attention to herself by going apeshit on Stormtroopers back at Maz's castle, maybe Kylo would never have found her or the droid and she'd never have needed to use the Force and she could have remained in her little protective bubble forever, who knows.
People typically don't read the prequels correctly, either.
The midichlorian thing is just an in-universe way of showing us that the institutionalized Jedi had embraced certain scientific observations in their understanding of the Force. In truth, the fact that some beings have more Force-sensitive cells in their bodies should have been an easy conclusion once we figured out that "the Force is strong in _____ families."
Obviously none of that means jack shit when it comes to understanding what it takes to be triumphant in the struggle between good and evil, because the prized Jedi Chosen One turned to the dark side and his son didn't defeat him through mastery of the Force but through sacrificial love.
But people seem to insist that it's a defining property of how the Force works in the prequels, despite Obi-Wan handily kicking Anakin's ass even though he's at a "lower power level," despite Yoda retreating to a less orthodox hermit-like lifestyle and teaching technique y the OT, etc.
She didn't let Finn fight anybody first. She tried to shoot first like a proper Star Wars protagonist. Kylo was just quicker on the draw and got her with the Force Push.
bitizenbon
Banned
Um no. Is isn't framed like that at all in the scene. He was clearly asking the question because JJ wanted to (prematurely) set up some sort of romantic tension in between them. He didn't want to know if this woman he just met had a life back on Jakku.
How long would it take to get from Coruscant to Earth in hyperspace?
The Librarian
Banned
If she had accepted her fate a little earlier, she would have asked Finn for the lightsaber. Then he wouldn't have gotten hurt.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'm seeing it for the second time tomorrow so I'll think about it more after that.
Ok, I see what you're saying.
bitizenbon
Banned
Can we all just agree that the film is better than most tentpole movies that have come out recently but it still riddled with asinine plot holes and sloppiness that have come to be expected in Hollywood films these days in order to pander to the masses and not let anyone think for a few minutes?
Randolph Freelander
Member
12 parsecs.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Maybe she was actually Darth Revan this whole time
Did you see the look Chewie gave her as as they were flying to Luke? He kinda gives her this caring look. Maybe he just respects her and all that and I'm looking too much into it.
heliosRAzi
Banned
"You're my new human now."
bitizenbon
Banned
Well, learn how to read movies or enjoy your Marvel flush for good.
Yes and no. I think the sloppiness and plot holes come from the premiere date being set first and a script written to meet that date. It is that simple. The story didn't cook long enough. This is a common thing in modern Hollywood as most franchises are developed around release schedules, not if and when a proper story worthy to be told is ready.
LegendofLex
Member
I didn't get this impression at all during any of my three viewings.
Just after they escape Jakku, she says she'll need to get back to Jakku.
He says "why does everyone want to go back to Jakku?!"
Then he launches into a barrage of inquiries trying to figure out why the hell she would want to go back to Jakku, one of which is whether she has a boyfriend.
Again, all completely understandable given that we know he's terrified to go to Jakku because he thinks the First Order will capture him there.
What additional framing are you seeing that suggests another interpretation outside of the explicit context of the scene?
DragonSworne
Banned
She didn't let Finn fight first. She was force pushed into the tree and knocked out when she tried to shoot Kylo...
Finn drops his blaster when he runs to Rey, Kylo then screams "TRAITOR" at him. After that, the light Saber duel starts.
Are they mutually exclusive?
bitizenbon
Banned
Fantastic point and a trend I've started to notice. Most films take years to make from greenlight to premiere.
TheSadRanger
Banned
Speaking of which, what were the New Republic planets that the TFO destroyed? Corellia? Coruscant?
edit: I never heard them refer to the planets by name. Did the movie tell us?
I don't think it's at all likely. It fits plausibly enough if you're trying to find every imaginable avenue for twists, but if we're to guess about how episode 8 and 9 might play out based on 7, they're not going to do something so retroactively damaging to our perception.
Also, with Rian Johnson directing, *Looper spoilers*
it would have the added bonus of being a hilariously terrible retread of Looper's plotline with the little kid.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
LOL
I knew the movie was missing something important.
It felt weird just starting up in silence.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Sort of agree, but the responsibility is on the movie to convey the info itself, not rely on other media such as prequels or novels, or comics, etc.
And another thing, Luke's use of the force at the end of ANH was just him using the force, targeting something that apparently is as mundane to him as casual shooting of womp rats back home. (Albeit while getting shot at by turbo lasers)
In TFA, however, Rey is arguably in a different and much more difficult situation. She is going up against something more formidable than a 2 meter hole. She uses the force, yes, but so does her opponent.
You do? And if so, it seems to put a damper on the impact of the end of ROTJ if it just means everything reverts back to how it used to be.
Padawans were taken from their homes at a very young age to start their training in order to avoid the creation of attachment to their parents/friends.
Sadly, this post will go unnoticed. I'm baffled at the amount of "Star Wars fans" that still believe and claim that "the Force was explained as being Midichlorians". Basically, they are angry at their own headcanon despite the movies themselves saying nothing of the sort.
Luke is the damn greatest Jedi alive in the universe. There is nobody better suited to defend his daughter. If he can't protect her, nobody can. And his nephew would have been aware that his cousin exists and try to find her.
But this is even beside the point. Luke could have been in great danger at some point, but 15 years are passing without him going back for her. Time of peace, new republic, no major things happening.
Not to mention that he could have taught her to defend herself too in all this time.
If Luke's the father, this series has the worst dads of all time. Light side, dark side, all the same.
LegendofLex
Member
I think the movie gave us plenty of cues, the obvious one being Rey closing her eyes and "letting the Force guide her" and then beating Kylo immediately after he tells her she needs a teacher, as if to reiterate to the audience "that's not how the Force works." (The fact that this line even existed in the movie at all was also supposed to be a clue, methinks.)
Which makes it kind of silly that he needed to do anything special to hit the target, doesn't it?
Who do you think was on Luke's tail in that trench?
Yes, I do think the situations are intended to be eerily similar. Dark side/military folks terminate the galaxy's legitimate government, all that's left to oppose them is the Rebels/Resistance. We know there's a bit of crossover between the Senate and the Rebels via Leia who are standing up to the Empire, likewise between the Republic and the Resistance, with Leia standing up to the First Order.
As for the bolded comment: that's pretty much exactly what it means; we're back to the status quo from the OT; this is supposed to be a character-driven story, and having clashing governments just gets in the way of that, as we saw with the prequels.
Are people playing dumb or do they actually not know that the Jedi take force sensitive kids away at a very young age so that they don't get attached to their parents and family?
Anakin was already too old when he came before the Council, it was why they were so reluctant to train him. He had too much of an attachment to his mother, something the Jedi do NOT want. They broke their own rules by allowing him to be trained and they came to pay the price for it.
Anakin was already too old when he came before the Council, it was why they were so reluctant to train him. He had too much of an attachment to his mother, something the Jedi do NOT want. They broke their own rules by allowing him to be trained and they came to pay the price for it.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
I would be ok with that.
I'm just curious now where they're headed in 8 and 9 between Kylo Ben and Rey. Are they both going to have some super training montage with their respective masters and then just face off Rocky style at the end of 8?
I'm just concerned with how by the numbers and predictable TFA was that they're really going to just play things really straight from here on out.
Digital-Hero
Member
As a kid in the 80's I had always thought Anakin to be a 40s something man when he turned into Vader.
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