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[Tripon]

The Cardinals weren't hacking the Astros to steal information. The Cardinals hacked the Astros to prove that the Astros actually stole information from them.

Basically, the Cardinals became so paranoid they were willing to commit criminal activity in order to prove they were right.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Legit Criminals

 

[Elwood Blues]

Just going to say, and I know this sounds silly, but real fans stick to their team through good times and bad. Bailing on your team so easily says you were never really a fan in the first place.

It's sports, it shouldn't be taken so seriously. We'd be naive to assume this stuff hasn't been going on for a few years now.

The most common tactic of the patriots fan. Rationalize how much the patriots cheat by claiming everybody else does it, and in much worse ways too.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

They just has a lawyer on 670 The Score in Chicago to talk about this. He said that jail time, an organizational fine up to $5 million and post season ban are all on the table.

 

[Caja 117]

It's the principle of the entire act for me more so than the possibility the Cardinal's gained any competitive edge (whether vs. the Astros or in regards to tips on scouting upcoming players). We should definitely be pissed that a sports team would condone or commit hacking to gain any edge... Or possibly even worse, cash-in on some obscure vendetta against a former employee.

Against one team that had almost no bearing on your season? and as far as I know scouting are done from minors and up, so you dont really need to hack to get this info.

 

[chuckddd]

Pirates NL Central Division champs!

 

[Malo]

Legit Criminals

Belicheat taught them well.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Against one team that had almost no bearing on your season? and as far as I know scouting are done from minors and up, so you dont really need to hack to get this info.

If any competitive advantage was to be had, it wouldn't be from scouting reports. It would be from knowing what another team was targeting in either the draft or trade talks. Or potentially whatever cutting-edge analytics used to evaluate talent.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Against one team that had almost no bearing on your season? and as far as I know scouting are done from minors and up, so you dont really need to hack to get this info.

The rumors are that it might not be so much to gain scouting reports, but rather, to find evidence that a former Cardinal's employee took information with him when he left to join the Astros. Even if it proves true that he did do that, there's still no way we should sit here and be happy about this.

 

[Arc]

If any competitive advantage was to be had, it wouldn't be from scouting reports. It would be from knowing what another team was targeting in either the draft or trade talks. Or potentially whatever cutting-edge analytics used to evaluate talent.

This. Plus you can scout all you want but you'd never know how your competition feels about a player.

 

[3N16MA]

The Cardinals weren't hacking the Astros to steal information. The Cardinals hacked the Astros to prove that the Astros actually stole information from them.

Basically, the Cardinals became so paranoid they were willing to commit criminal activity in order to prove they were right.

Keeping tabs on Luhnow.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Belicheat taught them well.

He can't even use a computer probably

 

[Caja 117]

If any competitive advantage was to be had, it wouldn't be from scouting reports. It would be from knowing what another team was targeting in either the draft or trade talks. Or potentially whatever cutting-edge analytics used to evaluate talent.

that makes sense, but I don't think this is consider cheating as I dont think this will give any competitive advantage on the field, Steeling? sure, But I doubt Wacha is playing like he is this season because of this.

 

[Fenderputty]

Just going to say, and I know this sounds silly, but real fans stick to their team through good times and bad. Bailing on your team so easily says you were never really a fan in the first place.

It's sports, it shouldn't be taken so seriously. We'd be naive to assume this stuff hasn't been going on for a few years now.

Good times and the bad implies performance on the field. Bad times doesn't imply shady unethical actions by those running the team.

I'm not sure if I would bail on the cards because of this, but I understand why someone would. It's a much better reason than just performance.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

An off-the-field competitive advantage impacts roster construction which in turn influences on-field results though. I don't think one is less egregious than the other.

Not ready to turn in my "fan card" until we have more info as to how extensive this operation was though.

 

[Talon]

The Cardinals are being investigated for corporate espionage by the FBI.

The Patriots may have intentionally taken some air out of the footballs despite what the science says.


Don't even try to compare scandals. This is far worse and won't blow up because it's not the Patriots.

Child please.

 

[RumblingRosco]

An off-the-field competitive advantage impacts roster construction which in turn influences on-field results though. I don't think one is less egregious than the other.

Not ready to turn in my "fan card" until we have more info as to how extensive this operation was though.

I'm on the same page about the fan-card stuff. I'm really hoping this was a single person acting alone. Really really hoping it isn't something that was known about all the way through the ranks.

 

[theepicoftyler]

that makes sense, but I don't think this is consider cheating as I dont think this will give any competitive advantage on the field, Steeling? sure, But I doubt Wacha is playing like he is this season because of this.

In this context, you could consider it cheating: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/postseason_results.jsp

11 post-season trips in 14 years, where most of those years only allowed 4 of 15 teams in.

Not saying any of this lead to any gain for the Cards, but they're notorious for their ability to field a competitive team year after year with consistent personnel turnover. Not something that is the easiest thing to do if you're losing good draft position by winning all the time.

 

[Talon]

Cardinals black magic is finally fully explained.

 

[Nickle]

I'm not going to stop supporting the Cardinals, I only care about the players and managers, the executives and IT workers are irrelevant to me. However, I won't condone illegal acts just because it's my team, that's stupid.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

In this context, you could consider it cheating: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/postseason_results.jsp

11 post-season trips in 14 years, where most of those years only allowed 4 of 15 teams in.

Not saying any of this lead to any gain for the Cards, but they're notorious for their ability to field a competitive team year after year with consistent personnel turnover. Not something that is the easiest thing to do if you're losing good draft position by winning all the time.

Based on what we know right now about the case, it's ludicrous to jump to the conclusion that the Cards' past success has been directly linked to hacking other teams.

The NYT report specifically mentions links to Luhnow (who left for the Astros after 2011) and that the "hack" was not very elaborate. So unless the Cards have insiders in every other organization (or ex-Card employees who keep using the same passwords in those organizations), it's far-fetched to make the claim that those postseason wins are related to this incident.

 

[lastflowers]

In this context, you could consider it cheating: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/postseason_results.jsp

11 post-season trips in 14 years, where most of those years only allowed 4 of 15 teams in.

Not saying any of this lead to any gain for the Cards, but they're notorious for their ability to field a competitive team year after year with consistent personnel turnover. Not something that is the easiest thing to do if you're losing good draft position by winning all the time.

They had Duncan, who seemed to catch gold. And Kissel. That guy is legendary.


I highly doubt their success comes from anything more shady than every other team. You could maybe argue in the last five or so years we should at their actions, but I bet this was nothing more than a Luhnow hate attack.


EDIT: added a bit and clarified intent

 

[theepicoftyler]

Based on what we know right now about the case, it's ludicrous to jump to the conclusion that the Cards' past success has been directly linked to hacking other teams.

The NYT report specifically mentions links to Luhnow (who left for the Astros after 2011) and that the "hack" was not very elaborate. So unless the Cards have insiders in every other organization (or ex-Card employees who keep using the same passwords in those organizations), it's far-fetched to make the claim that those postseason wins are related to this incident.

I know, I'm not saying that is. I was just saying that basing a definition of cheating on the performance of the current unit on the field is being too narrow.

I don't think they're really cheaters. I do think they're really stupid though.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

The way they went about investigating this supposedly is kinda laughable. If you want to hack, be smart about it.

 

[hom3land]

They have a history of cheating. Not suprised

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

In this context, you could consider it cheating: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/postseason_results.jsp

11 post-season trips in 14 years, where most of those years only allowed 4 of 15 teams in.

Not saying any of this lead to any gain for the Cards, but they're notorious for their ability to field a competitive team year after year with consistent personnel turnover. Not something that is the easiest thing to do if you're losing good draft position by winning all the time.

This is kinda funny considering Jeff Luhnow (as Cardinals scouting director) is the reason the Cardinals were able to draft well despite having low positions

 

[Arc]

This will be Manfred's first real test as commissioner. He can go light and become the next Roger Goodell, or he can bring the hammer down and earn respect of the fans and become the next Adam Silver.

 

[Rivitur]

Fuck you cardinals! As an Astros fan I will hate you and the rangers until I die. Also screw Albert puljos.

 

[lastflowers]

Fuck you cardinals! As an Astros fan I will hate you and the rangers until I die. Also screw Albert puljos.

You mean Alfred puggles?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Fuck you cardinals! As an Astros fan I will hate you and the rangers until I die. Also screw Albert puljos.

Has that ball off of Lidge landed yet?

 

[lastflowers]

Has that ball off of Lidge landed yet?

It's orbiting the moon.

I was at that game. My dad turned to me and said, "now you know how it feels to be a Red Sox fan"


Also I was at the 18 inning game where ausmus tied it in the ninth. I had a jazz concert to go to, so I left In the tenth, finished playing the concert, and came back to the game to watch Burke (was it Burke?) get the winner. Absolutely insane.

 

[Htown]

Gonna need a citation for that.

I actually read an article on this once. Apparently the way MLB is set up, it's a lot easier to rebuild from TERRIBLE than to rebuild from just bad.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

This is really shitty. I really hope that it was only a single person or a couple people that can be fired and the organization can move on. (punishment of the organization as a whole is appropriate as well if the allegations prove true.) If it was more than just a couple people or if it went all the way up to the top it would make it hard to keep being a Cards fan.

 

[Caja 117]

In this context, you could consider it cheating: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/history/postseason_results.jsp

11 post-season trips in 14 years, where most of those years only allowed 4 of 15 teams in.

Not saying any of this lead to any gain for the Cards, but they're notorious for their ability to field a competitive team year after year with consistent personnel turnover. Not something that is the easiest thing to do if you're losing good draft position by winning all the time.

But unlike other sports Drafting doesn't have that high impact on success in MLB, You can draft a Prospect with great potential, but even like this it doesnt mean he is going to be good or even make it to the Majors.

When it comes to Farm system, Red Sox and Dodgers have as good turnover as the Cardinals

 

[cashman]

By that definition 85% of the league is "below average."

But go ahead and move the goal posts. You said "historically bad" they have actually been historically good, which is a verifiable, quantifiable fact. Whether or not they have won the world series doesn't mean they are good or not. They have only been bad the last five years in which they were purposefully tanking.

tbf they've only been tanking for the last 3 years. They were just pretty bad in general in those first two years.

 

[stl]

The Cardinals are being investigated for corporate espionage by the FBI.

The Patriots may have intentionally taken some air out of the footballs despite what the science says.


Don't even try to compare scandals. This is far worse and won't blow up because it's not the Patriots.

Except when the Patriots taped the Rams practicing which cost the Rams the Superbowl. Don't try to act like the Patriots are above cheating every chance they get.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Except when the Patriots taped the Rams practicing which cost the Rams the Superbowl. Don't try to act like the Patriots are above cheating every chance they get.

Other teams doing bad things doesn't make it ok that our team did a bad thing, and it doesn't mean that people shouldn't point out that our team did a bad thing. "The other kids were doing it" is a shitty excuse when little kids use it, and we shouldn't accept it from multimillion dollar organizations, even if we are fans of them.

 

[Liquidsnake]

 

[perfectchaos007]

tbf they've only been tanking for the last 3 years. They were just pretty bad in general in those first two years.

The year we traded Hunter Pence for prospects was the year we started tanking on purpose. He was the last marketable guy on the team so once we ditched him I knew it was over

 

[XiaNaphryz]

The year we traded Hunter Pence for prospects was the year we started tanking on purpose. He was the last marketable guy on the team so once we ditched him I knew it was over

Thanks for that!

 

[lastflowers]

I was both happy and incredibly sad when pence left. We needed the prospects...

 

[RoslindaleOne]

Except when the Patriots taped the Rams practicing which cost the Rams the Superbowl. Don't try to act like the Patriots are above cheating every chance they get.

That was proven false long ago. Too bad some people still believe this.

 

[2002whitegt]

I was both happy and incredibly sad when pence left. We needed the prospects...

yeah, I just hated that we let him get so old in the minors. So I was super excited to see Correa with the big club at 20. Excitement is back, glad I can see them on tv again too

 

[RumblingRosco]

The tweets have started.

 

[Arc]

Except when the Patriots taped the Rams practicing which cost the Rams the Superbowl. Don't try to act like the Patriots are above cheating every chance they get.

Except that never happened. It's been confirmed by multiple NFL officials.

 

[stl]

Except that never happened. It's been confirmed by multiple NFL officials.

So the fines they received and Goodell destroying the tapes never happened? Oh, sorry that was for taping the Jets after they got away with taping the Rams.

 

[Klotera]

Still need some key pieces of information to know what to think of this. Obviously, illegally accessing their systems (I hate to call password guessing "hacking") is a big deal either way. From a broader organizational and baseball perspective, though, it really hinges on who did it and who knew. Investigators must have it down to just a few people if they nailed it down to a single residence. For all we know, they've already determined their suspect.

If Mozeliak or DeWitt knew about it, it's massive. If it's an individual acting on their own, then there's more to consider before we start handing out penalties to the team.

Whoever is involved, in addition to potential jail time, will surely be banned from baseball for life.

 

[A-V-B]

Best case scenario is it was one guy, and the top level folks completely come down on him and fully cooperate in the investigation.

But it wouldn't surprise me if top-level was in on it either. It wouldn't surprise me if multiple organizations in the MLB participate. We know how rampant corruption is in FIFA, why stop there? And we know how there was sort of an acceptance of steroids for a long time, internally.

Argh.

 

[Kaladin]

Somewhere you know Bill Belichick is thinking to himself : "Why didn't we hire hackers?"

 

[jello44]

Thanks for that!

]

You can thank the Phillies for that. They're the ones who traded a shit load of prospects to the Astros for about a season of the guy then unloaded him to the Giants.

I

Also I was at the 18 inning game where ausmus tied it in the ninth. I had a jazz concert to go to, so I left In the tenth, finished playing the concert, and came back to the game to watch Burke (was it Burke?) get the winner. Absolutely insane.

Yeah, it was Chris Burke.