Frozenprince
Banned
Yao was stupidly efficient in 06'-07' though. And even if you discount it for him being the outlier, efficiency stats are still the most effective way of differentiating players by era and overall offensive impact.
Steph Curry Supernova
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Yao was stupidly efficient in 06'-07' though. And even if you discount it for him being the outlier, efficiency stats are still the most effective way of differentiating players by era and overall offensive impact.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I'm not a Warriors fan but if Mark Price could make an all-star game Curry could definitely hang with those guys.
He's definitely having the best offensive season but that's in part by how well-constructed this Warriors team is. Last time I checked they average 40% from 3 as a team. That's insane.
Frozenprince
Banned
This whole adjusted for era thing only ever seems to account one way. Curry is hitting shots efficiently from 30 fucking ft. No defense can stop that, especially not a defense based on physicality inside the lane because that's where the big scorers of the day pressed in.
Guys with Curry's perimeter game back then would be functionally unstoppable.
Guys with Curry's perimeter game back then would be functionally unstoppable.
Hypemaster
Member
Chill, Wizards are notorious for never having a huge fan base that supports them and opposing fans taking over the Verizon Center. All DC locals care about are the skins no matter how awful they are.
But I digress.
This picture is incredible.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Maintaining efficiency as a high volume player is extraordinarily hard. There's a reason that field is so narrow. Yao makes it in with TS% over most other great centers because he was an exceptional FT shooter, and his usage rate was so high because he only played 33 mpg that season, a number Shaq never dipped below until his 14th season, for example.
AaronB
Member
I was a huge fan of the NBA from about 1988 to 1997 (the middle of the Jordan years until early Grant Hill). There was a time thanks to cards and fantasy basketball that I could give the name and approximate stats of every key player in the league. I just kind of fell out of it though, and have barely watched a game since.
Steph Curry is making me interested in the NBA again. My time zone and busy schedule make it hard to watch games, but I'm paying much more attention to it than I have in years. What he's doing is just unreal - I wonder how this feels compared to Wilt Chamberlain's 1962 season where he averaged 50 points a game.
Steph Curry is making me interested in the NBA again. My time zone and busy schedule make it hard to watch games, but I'm paying much more attention to it than I have in years. What he's doing is just unreal - I wonder how this feels compared to Wilt Chamberlain's 1962 season where he averaged 50 points a game.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
His offensive rtg - defensive rtg is +24
Which is, coincidentally, better than every season Jordan ever had except...the 72-10 season, where he was also +24. Also equal to Lebron's 2012-2013 season, where the Heat won 28 games in a row, 66 overall, and the championship.
To put it in perspective of just his team, the Warriors currently have an NBA best 114 offensive rating (points/100 possessions). Curry's offensive rating is 12 points higher (126) than the Warriors as a team, and his defense is only 1 point lower. He's a human blowout.
We were discussing the greatest offensive season.
And while I'm not denying that 06-07 Yao was pretty great, if you had to pick him to your team ahead of peak Shaq (just as an example) you need to get your head checked, even if you only consider his offense.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Well yes, I'd rather have 27 year old Shaq playing damn near 40 mpg than any season of Yao, usage rates be damned.
Benji's list only highlights that in terms of efficiency, we've never seen a season like this from a high scorer. Even if you lower the usage numbers to something like 20 or 25 Yao would sink but I think Curry still comes out on top.
Stantron
Member
People are SERIOUSLY overrating Curry and GS here. All time great player and team? Certainly. But Curry is not as good offensively as Jordan was, and these Warriors are not as good as those Bulls.
GS goes as Curry goes, and Curry is unguardable today for a few reasons:
1) No contact perimeter defense means he can get wherever he wants unimpeded.
2) Refs turning a blind eye to the millions of illegal screens which have been set for Curry this year.
3) Incredible spacing due to a bevy of elite 3-point shooters. This, combined with perimeter defenders being unable to be physical, allows Curry to get into the lane at will if he wants to, where he finishes at a good rate because...
4) There are no true shotblocking PF's/C's in the lane, and no hard fouls allowed. So not only can Curry get into the paint a lot more easily today (due to no perimeter contact and WIDE OPEN lanes due to spacing), when he gets there he can finish at a 65% clip despite his smaller size and modest athleticism.
Point of fact: you drop Curry in the '87-'96 NBA and yeah, initially he'd hit a ton of 3's (especially in the 80's) because no one would be used to a guy who can shoot like he does. But after the initial shock, coaches would quickly realize that they simply have to play him as a shooter. And why would they be able to do that more easily when defenders today can't? Because his primary defenders would be allowed to be physical with him and guide him where they wanted and wear him out over the course of the game (which also affects legs and his shot). They could also play very close up on him because his inside game would be almost COMPLETELY nullified by the very nature of the game back then: packed lanes, lots of contact inside and on the perimeter, and actual big men shotblockers waiting inside. Curry is not getting in the paint with anywhere NEAR the frequency he does today, and when he gets there he is not finishing at anywhere near a 65% clip against Zo, DRob, Dream, Mutombo etc. There's a reason why no 6'3" players were dominating the paint back then even when they were much more athletic than Curry - the game was just different.
And once you nullify Curry's inside game - that is, the THREAT of his inside game, which is all he needs to keep defenses honest - you simply have to play him as a shooter. The best shooter of all time, yes, but still a shooter. Not the complete offensive player he is today due to the nature of today's game. You can't guard Curry today because you can't take anything away from him due to various rules and the spacing of today's game and of the GS team in particular. Back then, his inside game would AUTOMATICALLY be nullified. That's the difference. He'd be played as a shooter and his effectiveness would drop markedly. He'd still be an all-time great, but he wouldn't be what we've seen this season, numbers or efficacy wise. I'd say he'd be a 22-25 ppg/6-7 ast/60-62% TS player. Still a HOF'er undoubtedly, but there would be zero GOAT or "GOAT offensive season" discussions.
GS goes as Curry goes, and Curry is unguardable today for a few reasons:
1) No contact perimeter defense means he can get wherever he wants unimpeded.
2) Refs turning a blind eye to the millions of illegal screens which have been set for Curry this year.
3) Incredible spacing due to a bevy of elite 3-point shooters. This, combined with perimeter defenders being unable to be physical, allows Curry to get into the lane at will if he wants to, where he finishes at a good rate because...
4) There are no true shotblocking PF's/C's in the lane, and no hard fouls allowed. So not only can Curry get into the paint a lot more easily today (due to no perimeter contact and WIDE OPEN lanes due to spacing), when he gets there he can finish at a 65% clip despite his smaller size and modest athleticism.
Point of fact: you drop Curry in the '87-'96 NBA and yeah, initially he'd hit a ton of 3's (especially in the 80's) because no one would be used to a guy who can shoot like he does. But after the initial shock, coaches would quickly realize that they simply have to play him as a shooter. And why would they be able to do that more easily when defenders today can't? Because his primary defenders would be allowed to be physical with him and guide him where they wanted and wear him out over the course of the game (which also affects legs and his shot). They could also play very close up on him because his inside game would be almost COMPLETELY nullified by the very nature of the game back then: packed lanes, lots of contact inside and on the perimeter, and actual big men shotblockers waiting inside. Curry is not getting in the paint with anywhere NEAR the frequency he does today, and when he gets there he is not finishing at anywhere near a 65% clip against Zo, DRob, Dream, Mutombo etc. There's a reason why no 6'3" players were dominating the paint back then even when they were much more athletic than Curry - the game was just different.
And once you nullify Curry's inside game - that is, the THREAT of his inside game, which is all he needs to keep defenses honest - you simply have to play him as a shooter. The best shooter of all time, yes, but still a shooter. Not the complete offensive player he is today due to the nature of today's game. You can't guard Curry today because you can't take anything away from him due to various rules and the spacing of today's game and of the GS team in particular. Back then, his inside game would AUTOMATICALLY be nullified. That's the difference. He'd be played as a shooter and his effectiveness would drop markedly. He'd still be an all-time great, but he wouldn't be what we've seen this season, numbers or efficacy wise. I'd say he'd be a 22-25 ppg/6-7 ast/60-62% TS player. Still a HOF'er undoubtedly, but there would be zero GOAT or "GOAT offensive season" discussions.
benjipwns
Banned
Are you really comparing Curry as an athlete to Barkley? First off, Barkley had 3+ inches on Steph, about 60-80 pounds, and was a FAR better run/jump athlete - way more explosive off the ground than Curry. And since you clearly missed the point, I was referring to player who drive INTO the paint, not post players (oh hey look - Curry doesn't do that either).
KiwiLannister
Member
I'm sure Jordan's Bulls never got the calls from the refs. Lmao.
I'm sure Jordan wasn't surrounded by greats like Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, shooters like Kerr, etc.?
I'm sure Curry's interior shooting stats have nothing to do with his great balance, floater, and ability to finish reverse with both hands.
I'm sure defense on the perimeter today is completely useless despite defense being more difficult to penetrate than during Jordan's era.
Curry has, arguably, the fastest shot release of all time. No one is blocking it consistently, and no one would back then, either. To get close enough to do so means him blowing right by you.
You know defenses today allow *fewer* points, right? Can you answer why?
Im talking about his opponents defense not his own defense of opponents
No one said Jordan didn't have good teammates. Shooters like Kerr? Are you SERIOUSLY comparing the spacing Jordan had to work with to the wide open court Curry has every game? Seriously? Watch some games.
And yes, Curry has great touch and balance, but in an era with far more congested lanes and shotblocking big men in ample quantity waiting inside, he is NOT getting into the paint as frequently as he is today, and he is certainly not finishing at 65+% like he's doing today. I can guarantee that. And once you take away the threat of his inside game (which would be taken away just by the very nature of the game), you can play him as a shooter. The best shooter of all time bar none, yes, but still a shooter. You can't do that today because he can and will penetrate and finish with regularity if you play him close - never mind that they can't be physical with him.
Also, I had to lol @ you think it's more difficult to penetrate today than in Jordan's day. Here's an example of a Jordan drive - note that number of moves he had to make and defenders he had to avoid (I count 4):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=1m25s
Note how crowded the lane is just because of the lack of spacing back then and big men with traditional offensive games who didn't venture far out from the paint (thus their defenders rarely did either). Lanes were WAY more crowded back then.
Now let's look at a couple of Curry drives:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRD8WArdLM#t=2m37s
Literally anyone on this forum could make that play, whereas one, maybe two people in history could make that Jordan play I posted. Big difference. Wide open lanes due to spacing. Unimpeded paths. No shotblockers. It's like a video game. Here's another from tonight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aCcUmImr8A#t=3m05s
Just wide open. Nice touch on the shot, but anyone on this forum could have gotten there to that point. I won't even post the numerous WIDE OPEN backdoor layups he had tonight due to zero players being in the paint because of spacing. People need to get their eyes checked.
The point is that teams wouldn't have to worry about him "blowing by them" because he wouldn't be able to get into the lane and finish in the paint with any regularity like he can today. That's the part you're missing.
And believe me, he can be played as a shooter and it would affect his efficacy, especially with physicality allowed.
But *why are the defenses spaced this way*? Could it because Curry himself, his insane range and passing ability, are forcing defenses to come out more and more?
Jordan was not a three-point threat. Teams played defense to suit. You cannot guard Curry and his team in the same manner, then or now.
And as a matter of fact, evidence shows that as long as Curry isn't blocked, it doesn't matter how close you get to him. His FG% is essentially unchanged no matter how far away the defender is. It really *wouldn't* affect him.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Curry does benefit tremendously from modern nba contact light favored rules. But in another Era with the same skills he'd still ball (and adapt to those rules).
Curry creates spacing, yes, but so does having 4-5 guys on your team capable of hitting 3's at 40+% at high volume. You give Jordan that spacing and he would ruin the league because he'd be dunking on literally every other possession.
Also note that I'm talking about transporting Curry back then, not his whole team.
I'll just ask one more question...in your opinion, why is scoring down? What is causing that phenomenon, when everything you're saying seems to imply that offense was a much tougher thing to come by in that era?
Fun bonus: here's another highlight from tonight's game
Fun bonus: here's another highlight from tonight's game
benjipwns
Banned
Even Chuck doesn't try to sell that bullshit anymore.
What am I supposed to be seeing in that clip? Another wide open lane? At least this time there was a contest at the rim - it's not that it never happens, it just happens WAY less frequently than 25 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLW2UwkcG4#t=1m32s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=0m06s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVUXJ8Q7ehY#t=1m15s
Multiple defenders and bodies in the paint at all times. It's night and day to the point where I don't understand how anyone DOESN'T see it.
Where the hell else would you be when playing Jordan? I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm just pointing out that Steph Curry is one of the best finishers in the league at the rim, and would continue to be excellent even in years past.
Also, my question remains.
timetokill
Banned
I've never seen a season like this one from Curry. And I'm an old Jazz fan who had to suffer against fucking Jordan.
Curry is doing mythical shit right now.
Curry is doing mythical shit right now.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
What the fuck people? You are seeing something historic that you may never see again. Why do you insist on making crappy arguments to try and make it seem not as impressive as it is?
Have you seem Curry's handle and release? There is not a single era where he wouldn't get shots off. Did you really post one video of a wide open Curry drive, and one video of a contested Jordan drive as evidence? Come ON.
Have you seem Curry's handle and release? There is not a single era where he wouldn't get shots off. Did you really post one video of a wide open Curry drive, and one video of a contested Jordan drive as evidence? Come ON.
The thing that is remarkable to me is how Curry is effecting kids. He is without question THE athlete of this eras kids. No one in any sport even comes close. Bigger than anyone in the NFL, Soccer, NHL, Baseball...etc you name it. No one is even halfway comparable.
He is their Michael Jordan.
Going to see the Warriors when they were in Detroit a month back made that obvious. So so so so many kids 10 & under wearing Curry jerseys and t-shirts so hyped whenever he had the ball.
He is their Michael Jordan.
Going to see the Warriors when they were in Detroit a month back made that obvious. So so so so many kids 10 & under wearing Curry jerseys and t-shirts so hyped whenever he had the ball.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Clipper fans are used to being shit on by a better team in California. GSW is filling the void while the Lakers pay for the last 5 championships in the desert.
The last one is insane lol
friskykillface
Banned
Lmao it's Montez the god from workaholics B^)
theignoramus
Member
Yeah his half court shots are going in at an alarming rate. Last night was one of the most effortless scoring displays I've seen. He dropped 46 by the third quarter, could have 60 if he kept gunning in the fourth.
I think it's safe to say Curry is the most gifted offensive player in the history of the game.
Team USA men's basketball is gunna be bonkers this summer with Steph, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis , and Westbrook on the floor at the same time.
We could actually be looking at a legit Dream Team 2.
theignoramus
Member
You underestimate Curry's ballhandling ability and how frequently he creates space against taller, physical defenders with it. Part of the reason guards of today's era are so difficult to D up is because the level of ballhandling ability, on average is significantly better than it was 25 years ago.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Handchecking always fixes that. Curry's a great player but he'd have a harder time of it if teams could handcheck and hack the crap out of him.
Yeah, peak Shaq would be up there easily if he could have hit free throws.
Handchecking was only allowed prior to the 90s because players were (relative to players of today) slow, unathletic and had no concept of playing defense with their feet.
Curry of today would have shredded the slow, lumbering Craig Ehlo's of the day even worse than MJ.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Teams practically mug him all the time now when he's off the ball and he still finds space to catch and shoot. Even with the ball he still often gets grabbed without any fouls called.
With his handles and ability to create space in an iso situation, hacking won't necessarily resolve every situation he can get a shot off unless you pretty much drag him by the uniform the whole time.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Nah, '94-97 when they played with a college 3 point line was factually the easiest time to jack up 3s. Curry would have averaged 40 ppg with a 22 foot line.
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