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[MatrixMan.EXE]

This is what I am afraid of... The game seems to be catering towards the hardcore, but the regular casual gamer who goes out and buys Assassin's Creed, Madden, Call of Duty every year might not stick around.

There needs to be something for the casual gamer to come in and enjoy and learn the game while having fun. The term easy to play but hard to master needs to be applied here hence we are beta testing it. The fun spectrum is hard to maintain will be broken once the casual raises slowly to upper but keeps on losing as they might not have the time as some of the hard core gamer. So Capcom needs to do something that will have slow gradual ranks for equal ranked people playing against each other.

This makes no sense to me. This is a fighting game. Your 'dude-bro' guy who only really plays AC, Madden, FIFA and CoD every year isn't the target market, and there is no reason for Capcom to try and target it.

Just because those games target a wide audience, it isn't the kind of audience that games that have no place trying to grab that market should be shooting for. Remember, Street Fighter IV was initially picked up by a lot of casual players that bought into the hype, but being a 2D fighter, by it's very nature, that audience eventually thinned out drastically into the hardcore community it is today. The same will happen with SFV. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Moreover, Street Fighter V is mechanically far more simple and 'casual' than any of the past games, SFIV included.

 

[kirblar]

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?

A design where they want to have characters who require nearly no combos at all to get their damage in.

Stuff like the overall damage/stun levels and Ken's "what is the point of the run?" issue are the types of overarching design issues where I think feedback for them would be good.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

and when a lot of people are saying "This tastes a lot worse than before", the cook should probably listen.

When are "a lot" of people NOT saying that? It's happened with Alpha. It happened with SF3. It happened with SF4. It's happening now.

Sooner or later you gotta catch on to the pattern. People always complain when a new SF game is released.

That doesn't actually mean that anything is wrong with the game.

 

[PtM]

ach, nevermind.

Cammy's intro animation has been 'censored' aswell. The camera angle has been changed.

http://www.allgamesbeta.com/2015/11/rmikas-critical-art-is-censored-in.html

It's known.

 

[Ilmyr]

Ok nvm, just found it in the other thread.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Well no one knows either way. Even Capcom doesn't know the extent of a nerf until it's tested out.

Except Capcom is testing the balance changes. What, you think they just decide numbers in a vaccuum without playtesting?

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?

A design decision that dictates this shouldn't be a combo-heavy game like SF4. We can have more links but that's not the game they're building here.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?

1. Not everyone is meant to have links. Hugo's links are pretty much limited to mashing jab in USF4 and 3S. He's just not a link heavy character. Neither is Alex in 3S. Actually, SF3 in general is not a link heavy game in the way that SF4 is. And, that's fine. Not every game has to fit ONE mold.

2. You can have a million links, but people will only use about 2 of them, anyways. That's what happens over time: people gradually eliminate the fluff. All Abels use the same combos. All Vipers use the same combos. All Hugos use the same combos. Some of you all are overstating the "combo freedom" that other games like SF4 have.

 

[kirblar]

A design decision that dictates this shouldn't be a combo-heavy game like SF4. We can have more links but that's not the game they're building here.

Laura has a lot of counter-hit combos and links that suddenly appear, it's obvious that it's a deliberate design choice with her more limited regular options- the math isn't an accident.

 

[Krackatoa]

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?

1. They don't want Walk Forward Combos
2. They don't want conversions off certain + buttons, or far reaching normals.
3. They don't want you confirming off lights without counterhit.
4. They don't want hitconfirms into cr.MK/Lows from max-distance off very advantageous, long-range pokes (Previously s.MP).

 

[Spman2099]

When are "a lot" of people NOT saying that? It's happened with Alpha. It happened with SF3. It happened with SF4. It's happening now.

Sooner or later you gotta catch on to the pattern. People always complain when a new SF game is released.

That doesn't actually mean that anything is wrong with the game.

Unfortunately, the FGC has a large contingent of people that need to be dragged kicking and screaming into every new iteration. I think it is because players end up spending so much time with each game that it is super hard for them to understand that a new one will play differently.

 

[Tripon]

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?

We have a game for you, It's called Street Fighter IV.

 

[Gunslinger]

We have a game for you, It's called Street Fighter IV.

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

 

[Skilletor]

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

Game isn't even out. People don't even know how to play sf5 yet.


That game went from people complaining about how defensive it is to the inverse now. Let the game at least come out and people learn how to play before making these silly statements.

 

[Hyun Sai]

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

Perhaps we should wait like one year after SFV release to make such claim ?

 

[Mizerman]

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

I can never go back to SF4. I started to get bored with it overtime.

 

[kirblar]

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

It took them a long time and 4 iterations to get to where we are in Ultra.

 

[CountBlack]

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

10 MORE YEARS

 

[Karsticles]

A design where they want to have characters who require nearly no combos at all to get their damage in.

Stuff like the overall damage/stun levels and Ken's "what is the point of the run?" issue are the types of overarching design issues where I think feedback for them would be good.

A lot of it just doesn't make sense, though. Here's an example:
In Beta 1, Bison could do j.HK. s.MP, c.MP, Psycho Blast OR Knee Press.

In Beta 2, Psycho Blast whiffs at the end of this string. Why? What's the point of removing that small choice from the player?
Bolded so multiple folks can see what I'm talking about instead of making a caricature of my perspective.

When are "a lot" of people NOT saying that? It's happened with Alpha. It happened with SF3. It happened with SF4. It's happening now.

Sooner or later you gotta catch on to the pattern. People always complain when a new SF game is released.

That doesn't actually mean that anything is wrong with the game.

Just like the pattern of people that have some weird policy that you shouldn't complain about anything.

Except Capcom is testing the balance changes. What, you think they just decide numbers in a vaccuum without playtesting?

A design decision that dictates this shouldn't be a combo-heavy game like SF4. We can have more links but that's not the game they're building here.

More links isn't what makes a game "combo heavy" - that's not what that term means.

1. Not everyone is meant to have links. Hugo's links are pretty much limited to mashing jab in USF4 and 3S. He's just not a link heavy character. Neither is Alex in 3S. Actually, SF3 in general is not a link heavy game in the way that SF4 is. And, that's fine. Not every game has to fit ONE mold.

2. You can have a million links, but people will only use about 2 of them, anyways. That's what happens over time: people gradually eliminate the fluff. All Abels use the same combos. All Vipers use the same combos. All Hugos use the same combos. Some of you all are overstating the "combo freedom" that other games like SF4 have.

Sure, but take something like Ryu's s.MP leading to c.MP - that was fine, right? Why remove something so basic like that?

I feel like some folks are treating me like I want these long combos with a ton of links. I'm saying that I thought the game had a nice set of options during Beta 1, and I don't see why so many of them had to be removed.

1. They don't want Walk Forward Combos
2. They don't want conversions off certain + buttons, or far reaching normals.
3. They don't want you confirming off lights without counterhit.
4. They don't want hitconfirms into cr.MK/Lows from max-distance off very advantageous, long-range pokes (Previously s.MP).

What's the harm in something like Cammy's previous combo existing? It was...what, a 4-hit combo before? Now it's a 3-hit combo? Is it really that big of a deal to have the 4th hit in?

We have a game for you, It's called Street Fighter IV.

It's funny you say that, because I've consistently been one of the most vocal critics of SFIV on this website. I'm not asking for long combos. I just don't see the value in having so many buttons that don't lead into anything else.

 

[Tripon]

It's funny you say that, because I've consistently been one of the most vocal critics of SFIV on this website. I'm not asking for long combos. I just don't see the value in having so many buttons that don't lead into anything else.

That's why I said it. =P

I just found it amusing that you're asking for something that was so prevalent in a game you detest. Just a little friendly jab.

 

[Karsticles]

That's why I said it. =P

I just found it amusing that you're asking for something that was so prevalent in a game you detest. Just a little friendly jab.

Look at my bolded example in my last post, though. I think it makes it more clear what I'm concerned about.

 

[peter0611]

10 MORE YEARS

Lol. Too optimistic. :3 There's nothing wrong with preferring SF4 over SF5 or thinking some mechanics are better in 4. But SFV will not become the next Melee in terms of still being so popular when the new hotness drops. The game will loose it's gas soon; out with the old, in with the new. Isn't that the cycle of most competitive Capcom games? Also, TOs don't seem willing to support both SF games and Capcom\Sony are really invested in making it a big esport success. And then there's a bandwagon of people who detest SF4 and are happy to replace it with another SF.

 

[kirblar]

With Bison I'm just confused as to their vision for the character's playstyle - most of the others are fairly obvious. There's nothing to contextualize design choices for me right now.

 

[GorillaJu]

With Bison I'm just confused as to their vision for the character's playstyle - most of the others are fairly obvious. There's nothing to contextualize design choices for me right now.

There's nothing for any of us, but that doesn't stop us from jumping to conclusions.

 

[Skilletor]

Are there notes somewhere from the latest build?

 

[cackhyena]

I'm just the least hyped for the game I've been since playing the last beta.

 

[Karsticles]

Are there notes somewhere from the latest build?

I'm not aware of anything unified. The Bison forums had a spreadsheet of his (extremely bad) frame data changes. I suspect each SRK character thread has something similar.

 

[fader]

reading this thread is fun. It's like reading Shoryuken back in 08.

 

[TheSpoiler]

It won't make sense for a while. That's how fighting games are. It's never immediately apparent as to why something is the way it is until weeks after. People gotta stress test that shit. Matchups, tournaments, framedata, how it plays with the character's other tools, it's very difficult to call something useless or overpowered until it's had proper time to cook.

Criticism is totally okay! Start discussion, level complaints for answers, all that sort of thing. But I think it's hilarious to say that Capcom is somehow ruining their vision of SFV until the game drops.

Hell, even the bigger players in the field should be taken with a grain of salt. This shit happens every single fighting game like clockwork.

 

[Stone Ocean]

If you don't want longer combos then what do you want more links for? So sometimes you can go MK instead of MP for the same damage? What does that even add to the game aside from the illusion of choice?

Not every button needs to lead somewhere. There's nothing wrong with having a bunch of pokes, this is Street Fighter for crying out loud.

 

[Doosi]

so who's the boss in this game

 

[Karsticles]

If you don't want longer combos then what do you want more links for? So sometimes you can go MK instead of MP for the same damage?

Not every button needs to lead somewhere. There's nothing wrong with having a bunch of pokes, this is Street Fighter for crying out loud.

Multiple link options can create depth. For example, you could have something like the following list of choices:

MP -> MK - best frame advantage on hit, ideal for command grab resets
MP -> HP -> Special - maximum damage
MP -> MP -> Special - maximum stun
MP -> HK - hard knockdown, ideal for oki

It's just a rough and ready example, but I think it's pretty clear that having multiple link options is a good thing, and it increases the game's depth of options.

 

[GorillaJu]

Multiple link options can create depth. For example, you could have something like the following list of choices:

MP -> MK - best frame advantage on hit, ideal for command grab resets
MP -> HP -> Special - maximum damage
MP -> MP -> Special - maximum stun
MP -> HK - hard knockdown, ideal for oki

It's just a rough and ready example, but I think it's pretty clear that having multiple link options is a good thing, and it increases the game's depth of options.

How is that better than MP -> Special, HP -> Special, raw sweep, etc? It doesn't give more options, it just makes MP a godlike button.

 

[cackhyena]

Multiple link options can create depth. For example, you could have something like the following list of choices:

MP -> MK - best frame advantage on hit, ideal for command grab resets
MP -> HP -> Special - maximum damage
MP -> MP -> Special - maximum stun
MP -> HK - hard knockdown, ideal for oki

It's just a rough and ready example, but I think it's pretty clear that having multiple link options is a good thing, and it increases the game's depth of options.

This is a better way of saying what I've been trying to say since beta 1 changes. Options aren't bad.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

reading this thread is fun. It's like reading Shoryuken back in 08.

there's no way that was fun

 

[GorillaJu]

This is a better way of saying what I've been trying to say since beta 1 changes. Options aren't bad.

That isn't an increase in options, that's a decrease. All that means is that MP is better than HP and HK and that you should always be slapping that Strong till the button wears out.

 

[Karsticles]

How is that better than MP -> Special, HP -> Special, raw sweep, etc? It doesn't give more options, it just makes MP a godlike button.

Um, because raw sweep is unsafe. Duh.

That isn't an increase in options, that's a decrease. All that means is that MP is better than HP and HK and that you should always be slapping that Strong till the button wears out.

So when someone is outside of MP range, you're going to keep using MP instead of HP or HK? lol

 

[cackhyena]

That isn't an increase in options, that's a decrease. All that means is that MP is better than HP and HK and that you should always be slapping that Strong till the button wears out.

No. It's a choice when you've played the same combo a million times over to have it look different...to just change things up just because. I did it all the time in 4. I didn't always choose the optimal combo. Limiting what buttons can reach from one beta to the next with Ryu was obvious. What they removed took away options. There was nothing overpowered about it.

 

[SephLuis]

I have been saying ever since beta 1 that some characters were lacking options. Diversity is good, but I can see where Capcom is going with those updates.

If they give you too many tools in the beginning, they know balancing will be a hellish act afterwards.

Each character has just enough tools to play and it's up to the players after the game is released to be creative with them. If after that they see a character is too limited, they will probably give said character more tools. Much better than risking remove them later because they are too strong.

 

[GorillaJu]

Um, because raw sweep is unsafe. Duh.


So when someone is outside of MP range, you're going to keep using MP instead of HP or HK? lol

Thanks for contributing to my point. There's no reason to take risks when you have the same button available off an MP hit-confirm.

With what character does cr HP have longer range than MP? If anything it usually has shorter range.

 

[cackhyena]

I have been saying ever since beta 1 that some characters were lacking options. Diversity is good, but I can see where Capcom is going with those updates.

If they give you too many tools in the beginning, they know balancing will be a hellish act afterwards.

Each character has just enough tools to play and it's up to the players after the game is released to be creative with them. If after that they see a character is too limited, they will probably give said character more tools. Much better than risking remove them later because they are too strong.

Yeah, I can see that being a sound reason to do it, I guess.

 

[Stone Ocean]

There's a thing as too many options. Having more options can be a good thing, it's not necessarily good. Some characters shouldn't have certain tools, that's how balancing goes, otherwise you just end up with shit like Vergil.

No. It's a choice when you've played the same combo a million times over to have it look different...to just change things up just because. I did it all the time in 4. I didn't always choose the optimal combo. Limiting what buttons can reach from one beta to the next with Ryu was obvious. What they removed took away options. There was nothing overpowered about it.

I'm sorry but that's some nitpicky shit. Being able to use a different button to achieve the same exact result isn't an "option", it's fluff.

 

[Karsticles]

Thanks for contributing to my point. There's no reason to take risks when you have the same button available off an MP hit-confirm.

With what character does cr HP have longer range than MP? If anything it usually has shorter range.

Who is talking about c.HP? I said HP, and you said HP.

No, there are still reasons to sweep when you can't link off of another button. That's incredibly obvious to anyone that plays fighting games.

 

[cackhyena]

There's a thing as too many options. Having more options can be a good thing, it's not necessarily good. Some characters shouldn't have certain tools, that's how balancing goes, otherwise you just end up with shit like Vergil.

I'm sorry but that's some nitpicky shit. Being able to use a different button to achieve the same exact result isn't an "option", it's fluff.

Sure.

 

[ShinMaruku]

There's a thing as too many options. Having more options can be a good thing, it's not necessarily good. Some characters shouldn't have certain tools, that's how balancing goes, otherwise you just end up with shit like Vergil.

I'm sorry but that's some nitpicky shit. Being able to use a different button to achieve the same exact result isn't an "option", it's fluff.

Truth.

 

[GorillaJu]

No. It's a choice when you've played the same combo a million times over to have it look different...to just change things up just because. I did it all the time in 4. I didn't always choose the optimal combo. Limiting what buttons can reach from one beta to the next with Ryu was obvious. What they removed took away options. There was nothing overpowered about it.

There's a significant difference between ending with Hado vs ending with Tatsu. Knockdown + corner carry vs keeping up pressure. It's not just aesthetic.

Extending the combo just gives free confirms instead of requiring a buffer. Decreases risk, decreases options.

 

[GorillaJu]

Who is talking about c.HP? I said HP, and you said HP.

No, there are still reasons to sweep when you can't link off of another button. That's incredibly obvious to anyone that plays fighting games.

How many characters actually hit st MP st HK? I'm talking about cr MP because it's by far the most common link starter and is the dominant button in so many Ryu combos in SF4.

 

[Spman2099]

Damn.....

But to be serious I don't like the changes and super aggressive gameplay style of sfv. Sfiv dwarfs sfv when it comes to variety and creating unique gameplay style.

Ugh...

 

[cackhyena]

There's a significant difference between ending with Hado vs ending with Tatsu. Knockdown + corner carry vs keeping up pressure. It's not just aesthetic.

Extending the combo just gives free confirms instead of requiring a buffer. Decreases risk, decreases options.

I'm just shit at explaining, I guess. I don't want the kind of extensions fadc gave us or anything like that. An example was the crouching lp or lk to a standing lp that Ryu had and was taken away. It was simple, not optimal, but an alternate choice from what's available now. Yes, it's small, but I like having those small differences.

I do like that they are keeping combos shorter. I just liked the couple extra things Ryu did in beta 1. I didn't feel like it was anything op. I'll just hope small things like that are added back. *shrug*

 

[Karsticles]

How many characters actually hit st MP st HK? I'm talking about cr MP because it's by far the most common link starter and is the dominant button in so many Ryu combos in SF4.

It doesn't matter. It's a theoretical example.

 

[direct_quote]

I'm just shit at explaining, I guess. I don't want the kind of extensions fadc gave us or anything like that. An example was the crouching lp or lk to a standing lp that Ryu had and was taken away. It was simple, not optimal, but an alternate choice from what's available now. Yes, it's small, but I like having those small differences.

I do like that they are keeping combos shorter. I just liked the couple extra things Ryu did in beta 1. I didn't feel like it was anything op. I'll just hope small things like that are added back. *shrug*

I'm the same way too, I like multiple combo options otherwise I get pretty bored doing the same punish or combo. In beta 2 Ken only had a couple optimal combos (not in the corner), and I felt bored doing mp, mp, hp xx tatsu. I hope they change his target combo to not launch the opponent so he could go light tatsu to srk..