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[DiscoShark]

This is what I am afraid of... The game seems to be catering towards the hardcore, but the regular casual gamer who goes out and buys Assassin's Creed, Madden, Call of Duty every year might not stick around.

This comment is baffling to me, especially when taken in the context of you saying SFIV was a more casual friendly game. Ignoring the fact that I don't believe that a game should be catered specifically to an audience that's gonna jump to the next big game release within 2-3 months regardless, SFV does a LOT to simplify the needlessly complex systems that have always made the games hard to get into to begin with.

SFV ...
Simplifies needlessly complex/non-pad friendly mash inputs like ChunLi's Lightning Legs and turns them into QCF motions.
Removes proximity based normals
Removes the pointless limitation of not being able to cancel chained normals into special moves.
Makes it so that the hardest link is something like 3f thanks to an in game frame buffer (no plinking required!)

For a new player SFV is going to be leaps and bounds easier to jump into than a game like IV was. I can't help but feel that you're really off base here.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

The problem that I see is that these characters are getting type cast to a specific role. The casual gamer can't play their "natural" game, but play a game around on how the character works.

Having to learn how to play a game is a problem now.

 

[Kysuke]

This comment is baffling to me, especially when taken in the context of you saying SFIV was a more casual friendly game. Ignoring the fact that I don't believe that a game should be catered specifically to an audience that's gonna jump to the next big game release within 2-3 months regardless, SFV does a LOT to simplify the needlessly complex systems that have always made the games hard to get into to begin with.

SFV ...
Simplifies needlessly complex/non-pad friendly mash inputs like ChunLi's Lightning Legs and turns them into QCF motions.
Removes proximity based normals
Removes the pointless limitation of not being able to cancel chained normals into special moves.
Makes it so that the hardest link is something like 3f thanks to an in game frame buffer (no plinking required!)

For a new player SFV is going to be leaps and bounds easier to jump into than a game like IV was. I can't help but feel that you're really off base here.

In terms of accessibility, I agree its easier but one thing that i noticed thats constant in this game is there the better player always wins. I think the skill gap with play a way bigger role then it did in IV. I think thats what he means by more hardcore.

 

[Stone Ocean]

In terms of accessibility, I agree its easier but one thing that i noticed thats constant in this game is there the better player always wins. I think the skill gap with play a way bigger role then it did in IV. I think thats what he means by more hardcore.

Why is that a bad thing again

 

[Kysuke]

Why is that a bad thing again

how did I imply that?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Having to learn how to play a game is a problem now.

I think they're being critical of limited creativity. Kinda like how Blazblue requires you to play a character exactly how the dev wants u to instead of having unique playstyles.

 

[yurinka]

Having to learn how to play a game is a problem now.

Having a game fully enjoyable by only the 1% most hardcore crowd who spent hundreds or thousand of hours in the series to reach all its potential always has been a problem.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Having a game fully enjoyable by only the 1% most hardcore crowd who spent hundreds or thousand of hours in the series to reach all its potential always has been a problem.

If you don't enjoy the process of learning that's on you.

 

[nilbog21]

when is the beta coming back ?

 

[SolidSnakex]

when is the beta coming back ?

The next "big" (and possibly final) beta will probably be in January so they can do one last sweep to make sure that it's running as well as it possibly can before launch. They'll probably continue to do short tests like the last one every now and then. Those just come at completely random times.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Universal mechanics aren't "fair" when they almost never affect characters the same. Parries have been brought up already so just look at the focus system in SF4: all characters have access to focus, right? But each focus attack has different frame data and hitboxes, same goes for dashes and backdashes, so when you compare Fei Long to Viper you can't possibly call the system "fair" or whatever when Fei's focus is an integral part of his gameplan while Viper should probably never touch that move outside of stuns.

yup, my biggest problem with SF4, normals stuff like dashes, focus attack were universal, but not universally balanced. So you have characters like Sim or Guile where the FA sucked, but Goken's was godlike. I'm sure this was a balancing issue, but it came off as completely unbalanced. I think all characters should had a standard range of FA and balanced other things.

I like SFV's approach better regardless, characters will be even more unique and play pretty much nothing alike.

 

[SamVimes]

Every character has a sweep, but all sweeps have a different animation, frame data and hit box. I don't see how it's a problem, especially considering that virtually all universal mechanics affect different characters in different ways.

 

[Fitts]

The problem that I see is that these characters are getting type cast to a specific role. The casual gamer can't play their "natural" game, but play a game around on how the character works. This becomes limiting factor with the current options given to the characters. Your counters are block or alpha counters, which can take you so far... I see there is less chance for upsets in SFV in terms regular person new to the game doing BS moves versus a veteran...

In SF4/USF4 although the character has specific type that you could play. They were given more options that allowed casual gamers to "build their own play style" that they could refine and play like how hardcore SF player would.

I really don't see how IV gave any more overarching playstyle flexibility than V and, if it did, you seem to believe that you're just working toward playing a character in a homogenized "hardcore" way anyway. And yes, you're always playing around "how a character works" in a fighting game. That's why you have a starting cast of 16 to choose from that play radically different. Heck, Ryu and Ken have never been more different than they are in V.

And you should be glad you perceive less of a chance for a casual player to upset a veteran player by using "BS moves" in V. If one could just spam garbage and win against a dedicated player that would make for one boring ass broken game.

 

[Skilletor]

The universal mechanics in both SF3 and SF4 fucked charge characters over pretty well.

 

[Karsticles]

Check out the nerfed Psycho Blast hitbox:

https://youtu.be/waDscBTCMtk

 

[direct_quote]

The universal mechanics in both SF3 and SF4 fucked charge characters over pretty well.

Well that and zoning too.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Check out the nerfed Psycho Blast hitbox:

https://youtu.be/waDscBTCMtk

Bison's hand doesn't touch Necalli, sounds legit

 

[VariantX]

Check out the nerfed Psycho Blast hitbox:

https://youtu.be/waDscBTCMtk

Would rather they just shrink the size of the effect to be a little bit more inline with the hitbox.

 

[Nachtmaer]

Check out the nerfed Psycho Blast hitbox:

https://youtu.be/waDscBTCMtk

Think of it as Yun's fake palm. Mindgames, man.

I really wonder what is up with some moves' hitboxes or maybe it has more to do with hurtboxes being smaller because of the throw range being shorter. I think SFxT had the same problem where characters had to basically clip right through eachother in order to throw them.

 

[MoxManiac]

In terms of accessibility, I agree its easier but one thing that i noticed thats constant in this game is there the better player always wins. I think the skill gap with play a way bigger role then it did in IV. I think thats what he means by more hardcore.

What am I reading?

The better player should always win. Anything less is a terrible game.

 

[Makai]

Simplifies needlessly complex/non-pad friendly mash inputs like ChunLi's Lightning Legs and turns them into QCF motions.

Lightning legs and thousand hand slap are some of the few moves that beginners can consistently perform. Changing it to a quarter circle is a mistake.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The better player should always win. Anything less is a terrible game.

This doesn't work in actual fights, much less video-game ones.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but the idea that a competitive game can't (or shouldn't) allow for upsets or else it's a bad game seems weird to me.

The game shouldn't work AGAINST a more skilled player as a means to allow unskilled players to feel better about themselves is probably a better way to put it. But if the better player doesn't play well, the game shouldn't prevent the lesser skilled player from putting a whuppin on him, either.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"This doesn't work in actual fights, much less video-game ones.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but the idea that a competitive game can't (or shouldn't) allow for upsets or else it's a bad game seems weird to me."


An upset isn't when a worse player (or fighter) beats a better player. An upset is when someone expected to win loses. If the "better skilled" player is playing worse than the "worse skilled" player then they should lose because during that match they're not the "better" player. Thus, the better player should always win.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with the last paragraph of the post you quoted.

 

[Teknopathetic]

I mean that's what you're saying but it directly contradicts what you said in the first part of the post. Games that are designed such that the better player always wins don't prevent upsets.

 

[jett]

Check out the nerfed Psycho Blast hitbox:

https://youtu.be/waDscBTCMtk

Didn't they say at one point that they wouldn't nerf characters but instead improve the rest? I guess that line of thought didn't last very long at all.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Didn't they say at one point that they wouldn't nerf characters but instead improve the rest? I guess that line of thought didn't last very long at all.

Game isn't even out yet, bro. Kind of hard to make a good game if you never ever nerf things at any point in development.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Games not out yet guys, they are doing gameplay adjustments during game development. Are they to be held to a build months before release?

 

[DiscoShark]

Lightning legs and thousand hand slap are some of the few moves that beginners can consistently perform. Changing it to a quarter circle is a mistake.

And then you try to do a combo with them with normals that typically have very small cancel windows and realize why they were a dumb idea to begin with. Quarter circles are not a difficult motion, they may come off as obtuse to anyone not familiar with fighting game conventions but they're not an executionally difficult maneuver to anyone who takes 10 seconds to look at a movelist. This isn't even mentioning how much easier it is to consistently get quarter circles on a gampad vs. mash moves, I can't help but feel that that's also influenced the decision to move the input to quarter circles as well.

Contrast Gen's MK -> Hands with any other character's crouching MK -> Fireball. One character clearly has a much more difficult hurdle for what should be a simple hitconfirm / cancel / pressure move.

 

[Karsticles]

Games not out yet guys, they are doing gameplay adjustments during game development. Are they to be held to a build months before release?

It is disconcerting that they took the game from s great place to a mediocre one. It feels like they are unsure of themselves.

 

[Skilletor]

This thread is an excellent study in why developers shouldn't show people the development process.

 

[DR2K]

Game isn't even out yet, bro. Kind of hard to make a good game if you never ever nerf things at any point in development.

Well pretty hard to make a character the best they can be when they're constantly getting unwarranted nerfs. At what point do they adapt that design philosophy? When the game releases officially? When they release all the DLC characters?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

This thread is an excellent study in why developers shouldn't show people the development process.

yup

 

[ShinMaruku]

Yep, Cammy getting a staple move of hers turned from a special to a V-Skill is a massive compliment to her character.

I'm sure glad I don't have to worry about DP FADC Ultra, DP FADC DP, Combo into Drill FADC into Combo and instead just do a way more personalized spinning backfist.

I agree. It's making Cammy so much fun. Can't wait to see Ibuki and Juri.

 

[Skilletor]

Well pretty hard to make a character the best they can be when they're constantly getting unwarranted nerfs. At what point do they adapt that design philosophy? When the game releases officially? When they release all the DLC characters?

How do you know it's unwarranted? You don't know what tools every character has, how they interact with one another, or what the goal is for the development team in creating a character.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Sometimes you get knee jerk nerfs to a character's tools without looking where it fits into the game plan. Most of the unease is coming from where some changes in other games destroy some characters.

I mean they kept trying to to put in DJ, that makes me doubt some of their ideas.

 

[Karsticles]

This thread is an excellent study in why developers shouldn't show people the development process.

I think it is great. We can help keep Capcom from ruining the game.

 

[jediyoshi]

I think it is great. We can help keep Capcom from ruining the game.

:lol

 

[The Lone Dragon]

I think it is great. We can help keep Capcom from ruining the game.

Yeah, let the people who have never made a successful fighting game tell the people who have made many successful fighting games how to make successful fighting games!

 

[Skilletor]

I think it is great. We can help keep Capcom from ruining the game.

From what I'm reading, listening to the people bitching would do exactly the opposite, imo.

 

[DR2K]

How do you know it's unwarranted? You don't know what tools every character has, how they interact with one another, or what the goal is for the development team in creating a character.

Well no one knows either way. Even Capcom doesn't know the extent of a nerf until it's tested out.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

The game is already ruined though.

They put those dirty SF2 veterans Vega, Sim and Gief instead of glorious 3s characters and slightly changed the camera angle on Cammy's intro animation.

And the better player seems to win consistently in this game. Worst of all.

There's no hope

 

[Lulubop]

The game is already ruined though.

They put those dirty SF2 veterans Vega, Sim and Gief instead of glorious 3s characters and slightly changed the camera angle on Cammy's intro animation.

And the better player seems to win consistently in this game. Worst of all.

There's no hope

This is shit is like way past tired

 

[Krackatoa]

Lightning legs and thousand hand slap are some of the few moves that beginners can consistently perform. Changing it to a quarter circle is a mistake.

The key is being able to consistently perform them when they need to. With that in mind, HHS and Lightning Legs are the hardest specials to perform in SFIV.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, let the people who have never made a successful fighting game tell the people who have made many successful fighting games how to make successful fighting games!

Project M was leagues ahead of Smash Brawl. Sometimes it works.

From what I'm reading, listening to the people bitching would do exactly the opposite, imo.

Did you see the Psycho Blast nerf I posted?

Obviously, don't listen to everyone, but I feel like the general shift is toward nerfs, and most people were really happy with Beta 1 character status.

There are things everyone seems to dislike:
-Fewer link and combo options.
-Key tools made useless for several characters.
-Animations sorely mismatched with hitboxes on occassion (notably, Ryu's c.MK).

That is useful feedback for Capcom. Yeah, it is mixed with misinformed whining, but Capcom should be able to tell which issues are important to their fan base based on the frequency of the issues being brought up.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

I think I'll trust Capcom more when it comes to actually making the game.

 

[Sayad]

I think it is great. We can help keep Capcom from ruining the game.

That might have worked with general gameplay complaints like walk speeds, hit stops, stun gauge and what not. They're certainly not taking balance complaints from the community into consideration if you look at the changes with each build. Actually, every time we got to try the game it was few builds behind what they currently have so I doubt they even look at balance discussions.

 

[ShinMaruku]

From what I'm reading, listening to the people bitching would do exactly the opposite, imo.

This is where having people like Combofiend and Haunts would help them pick apart the bitching. Also they should get some good info.

Unless you don't think they are capable of taking out bad ideas.

 

[kirblar]

-Fewer link and combo options.

This one's inevitable, the nature of what they're going for means damage options are going to be heavily curated.

 

[Karsticles]

Also, to clarify: I am not saying that the general public is better at game design than Capcom. I am saying that you don't have to be a cook to know if food tastes good, and when a lot of people are saying "This tastes a lot worse than before", the cook should probably listen.

This one's inevitable, the nature of what they're going for means damage options are going to be heavily curated.

I don't see why there can't be more links, and by that, I mean that some characters literally have 2 ground combos total. What kind of design decision necessitates that?