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[Suikoguy]

Even now, in thread after thread you have the same people on neogaf disparaging working class people who voted for their own interests over diversity, inclusiveness and progressiveness and those on the left still can't work out why that is, when it's obvious. Hillary Clinton did not stand for any of that. She was a status quo, globalist, neo-liberal. She stood for nothing and had nothing of interest to say. She was the candidate purely because of her connection to a previous president. They even set aside some horrendous things she proposed and enacted during her husband's presidency. The fact that she was a woman was enough for too many people, when she wasn't the right woman.

Who?

I hear that more from Sanders supporters and Sanders himself. Sanders has more than once railed against identity politics which is exactly what the bolded is.

 

[KingK]

The thing is, a lot of Dem supporters put a crazy amount of emphasis on this. Ignoring the fact that if the party doesn't re-shape itself heavily, they could lose again even if Trump and his entire admin get dragged away in cuffs.

The right controls the discourse in the US. They will pivot to blaming liberals and gaslighting the universe as though they never wanted to work with Trump. They even have hundreds of hours of Never Trump sound bites to drag out from the 15 minutes before they kissed the ring.

We can't idly sit by and furiously masturbate to the idea of Trump going down before his four years are up. That's where a lot of the pushback to the Russian focus comes from. People are itching to get something done, not boost the FBI and CIA and hope it goes our way.

We can and should do both. And like I said, I don't think Trump is getting impeached, but we can't just pretend that nothing is fucking going on here.

also russia was basically just doing what we do anyway, and there are awful countries (israel, saudi arabia) that are way more involved in our elections all the time and nobody seems to care. plus there's legitimate shit we should be working with russia on (arms treaties and syria especially) but nobody can even say that without being called a traitor at this point.

openly antagonizing russia does no one any good.

It wasn't just what they did, it's what's still going on! The current president is most likely a Russian asset, uncommitted to NATO, openly hostile to the notion of the EU, and actively supporting Russian interests. I'm not saying it's the only bad thing we should be taking about by any means, but it's a pretty big fucking deal!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Who?

I hear that more from Sanders supporters and Sanders himself. Sanders has more than once railed against identity politics which is exactly what the bolded is.

I think you've misread that, because that is precisely the point. Identity politics is vacuous, unrepresentative and useless in winning an election.

It's easy for people to point and say that white working class is an identity, when the truth is that it's the norm. These people don't see themselves how you do, and in a democracy it's your job to convince them to vote your way regardless.

Whereas Bernie Sanders (and to an extent Trump in his messaging) correctly identified the issues as being economic policy related and class driven, too many people on the internet felt that the real cause was identity related. In a democracy you're dealing with a collective, not the individual, and identity politics is woeful.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I think you've misread that, because that is precisely the point. Identity politics is vacuous, unrepresentative and useless in winning an election.

It's easy for people to point and say that white working class is an identity, when the truth is that it's the norm. These people don't see themselves how you do, and in a democracy it's your job to convince them to vote your way regardless.

Whereas Bernie Sanders (and to an extent Trump in his messaging) correctly identified the issues as being economic policy related and class driven, too many people on the internet felt that the real cause was identity related. In a democracy you're dealing with a collective, not the individual, and identity politics is woeful.

Can you tell me the issues white working class people in America face that non-white working class people don't also face

 

[Auto_aim1]

Democrats will vote for their party, Republicans will vote for their party. Ads are all pointless. Now if you have a focused message like Trump did on trade you can get enough voters from the other party in vital locations to win. It's a shame a lot of women voted for Trump instead of Hillary but party comes first I guess.

 

[Autoignition]

It's easy for people to point and say that white working class is an identity, when the truth is that it's the norm.

That truth only lasts a few more years. The 2016 election was the dying gasp of white anxiety. Maybe 2020 is its final hurrah. But by 2024, we'll be a minority-majority nation.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Can you tell me the issues white working class people in America face that non-white working class people don't also face

That's not my job, that's Hillary Clinton's job, and she failed enormously. Trump was able to point to race and otherness because she did such a shite job of identifying an alternative, and still it was lapped up by her fans. Even now they refuse to accept it was crap.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That's not my job, that's Hillary Clinton's job, and she failed enormously. Trump was able to point to race and otherness because she did such a shite job of identifying an alternative, and still it was lapped up by her fans. Even now they refuse to accept it was crap.

Ah, so you don't know.

Thanks!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

That truth only lasts a few more years. The 2016 election was the dying gasp of white anxiety. Maybe 2020 is its final hurrah. But by 2024, we'll be a minority-majority nation.

That's what your crowd said this time. Look how that turned out! There may not even be a democracy in 8 years. That's the situation that has been created, partly because of a terrible opposition to the prospect of Donald Trump.

 

[Autoignition]

That's what your crowd said this time. Look how that turned out! There may not even be a democracy in 8 years. That's the situation that has been created, partly because of a terrible opposition to the prospect of Donald Trump.

um. I'm not talking for a crowd? I'm citing immigration trends.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Ah, so you don't know.

Thanks!

I'm not an American democratic candidate for the presidency. I don't have the tools or knowledge to be able to put together a message for the largest voting bloc in America, but a potential president and her campaign sure as hell should.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

um. I'm not talking for a crowd? I'm citing immigration trends.

Time after time I've read on here that demography was going to save the day. We had thread after thread about the clown car during the nominations.

What you understand to be a predictable fact of demography is not a fact at all. There are so many variables that failing to appeal to what is actually known and real, right here, right now is negligence.

 

[Valhelm]

Can you tell me the issues white working class people in America face that non-white working class people don't also face

Clinton lacked working-class policies in general. She retained the support of many working class PoC because her opponent was Donald fucking Trump, but white working class voters weren't intended to be part of her coalition.

Pardon the source.

 

[How About No]

I too thought "get a load of this fucking guy" would have been a successful enough platform, but I clearly know nothing

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Clinton lacked working-class policies in general. She retained the support of many working class PoC because her opponent was Donald fucking Trump, but white working class voters weren't intended to be part of her coalition.

Pardon the source.

You almost made me click on National Review, come on son

What I'm getting at is the identity politics complaint is boneless because there are no problems white working class voters face that minorities don't also face, and that Donald Trump succeeded by appealing to white working class identity.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

You almost made me click on National Review, come on son

What I'm getting at is the identity politics complaint is boneless because there are no problems white working class voters face that minorities don't also face, and that Donald Trump succeeded by appealing to white working class identity.

You're labouring under the illusion that economic anxiety doesn't exist. Identity politics is a university campus passtime. It's not science, it is barely economics and it's not even psephology. In a democracy the goal is the collective, the bringing together. The trend of identity politics is the glorifying of the individual, which is useless in a democratic society. You cede the ground to those who can point towards the other that threatens the collective.

 

[aeolist]

It wasn't just what they did, it's what's still going on! The current president is most likely a Russian asset

this is glenn beck level paranoid conspiracy theory

 

[water_wendi]

You almost made me click on National Review, come on son

What I'm getting at is the identity politics complaint is boneless because there are no problems white working class voters face that minorities don't also face, and that Donald Trump succeeded by appealing to white working class identity.

That National Review link has a quote from Chuck Schumer.

"At least publicly, Schumer has no worries about his party’s dwindling fortunes among working-class white voters. “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”"

Do you think this was a good strategy for victory?

 

[Suikoguy]

When does the voter file get updated?
I'm tired of all of this back and forth speculation without any data.

 

[aeolist]

You almost made me click on National Review, come on son

What I'm getting at is the identity politics complaint is boneless because there are no problems white working class voters face that minorities don't also face, and that Donald Trump succeeded by appealing to white working class identity.

the relevant part is a direct quote from chuck schumer, the source doesn't matter.

“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

and the logical conclusion of what you're saying is that we need class-based policies, which are always somehow excluded from identity politics.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

They'd rather blame the people that voted for Trump instead of admitting their candidate was shit and blaming her.

Hillary is clearly better than Trump, so who is the problem here?

 

[Sianos]

I was wrong about the election and wrong about what the American people as a collective value. I was wrong in ways that should have been obvious, looking back now.

A crucial part of my mistake was also Hillary's mistake - that there was no basket of deplorables. Which also by extension means that there was no basket of wonderful moderate Republicans ripe to be swayed to the left on social issues. They will always think of the left as just waiting for a chance to attack them too after whatever monstrosity the far-right puts forth is defeated. Yeah, it sure sucks about the way non-white people are being treated, but there's a zero percent chance I'll ever be mistaken for one of those! But there's a non-zero chance those oversensitive liberals might yell at me if I make an "edgy joke" about killing all the Jews, so better continue to side against them for my own safety! You will not reach these people by invoking empathy ever, no matter how far you "compromise" on the issue of treating minorities with respect.

You'll never reach a Republican by appealing to empathy - you have to go through their own wallets and their own suffering.

Another mistake was not giving people what they wanted to hear. No one cares about whether a policy is feasible or even reasonable - as demonstrated by the fact that we're building a stupid fucking wall just to show immigrants what we think of them. People desperately want something to believe in even if it isn't true. And it's not like we'll ever be held accountable for exaggerating if blatant lying isn't even checked, so there's no real disadvantage to promising the moon as long as we don't give too many uncomfortable details.

Hillary was too worried about people not thinking a plan is feasible and therefore going on to perform some deep multi-factor analysis to write up a series of books on how her plans wouldn't succeed due to some unaddressed factor. But almost no one cares even if someone does that, because they still want to believe. You have to give them something they want more, in which case suddenly the protective safeguard magically vanishes and suddenly the first plan can be actually criticized.

Just be vague and rely on infinite plausible deniability like Republicans do!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

the relevant part is a direct quote from chuck schumer, the source doesn't matter.



and the logical conclusion of what you're saying is that we need class-based policies, which are always somehow excluded from identity politics.

Class politics are not identity politics. This is an argument that stems from nonsense. You cannot on the one hand believe in a politics that focuses on the individual, and then apply that to the majority.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Oh yeah, I forgot about "basket of deplorables". Goddamn what was she thinking? Dumbest mistake ever.

 

[Suikoguy]

Hillary was too worried about people not thinking a plan is feasible and therefore going on to perform some deep multi-factor analysis to write up a series of books on how her plans wouldn't succeed due to some unaddressed factor. But almost no one cares even if someone does that, because they still want to believe. You have to give them something they want more, in which case suddenly the protective safeguard magically vanishes and suddenly the first plan can be actually criticized.

Just be vague and rely on infinite plausible deniability like Republicans do!

Aside from the obvious, that people will put party over their own personal values like you touch on in the first half of your post.

Isn't it ironic that the promising the impossible is one of the primary drivers of the lack of faith in Washington. It's a self-defeating cycle.

One I personally think is leading towards the recent authoritarian bent.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That National Review link has a quote from Chuck Schumer.

"At least publicly, Schumer has no worries about his party’s dwindling fortunes among working-class white voters. “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”"

Do you think this was a good strategy for victory?

I've heard the quote before and no, I think it's fucking stupid. I'm not one of these optimistic liberals who underestimated the depth of selfishness, ignorance and hatred in America. Back when Trump first announced his run and everyone was laughing it off I knew it could happen. When people told me they believed in America I laughed in their faces because we have history books that show us just what America is.

Clinton's campaign failed because it bet on man's better nature and lost horribly.

But I'm sure had an anti-white candidate gained as much traction and ultimately won people would still be talking about economic anxiety

 

[cheezcake]

Hillary is clearly better than Trump, so who is the problem here?

She ain't better than him at winning elections

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

She ain't better than him at winning elections

You vote for people who win elections? You'll be voting for Trump in 2020 with that logic I'm guessing.

 

[Autoignition]

Time after time I've read on here that demography was going to save the day. We had thread after thread about the clown car during the nominations.

What you understand to be a predictable fact of demography is not a fact at all. There are so many variables that failing to appeal to what is actually known and real, right here, right now is negligence.

I have no idea what any of this has to do with what I said. I never talked about right here, right now. What are you even responding to?

 

[Vicetrailia]

Well they say that Clinton didn't need to win over a single white Trump voter to take Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. She just needed to turn out working class Democrats.

Hillary's economic policy easily beats Trumps, BUT, she didn't have clarity and conciseness. She didn't focus on a simple economic narrative. Regardless, if only she got those Democrats voting things may be different now.

 

[Future]

Makes sense. People iffy on Clinton not interested in getting lectured on why she's superior.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I have no idea what any of this has to do with what I said. I never talked about right here, right now. What are you even responding to?

Your direct assertion that a white voting majority is going to disappear into the ether.

 

[Sianos]

Oh yeah, I forgot about "basket of deplorables". Goddamn what was she thinking? Dumbest mistake ever.

"The 'Good Republicans' will realize how terrible the far right is and go on to see the light!" This is also the rationale behind codifying the alt-right to try and prompt a "come to the light" moment by the nicer folk on the right.

It was a naive view - a naive view that I wanted to believe in too - brought about by giving too much credence to concern trolling over how a swath of poor (non-existent) Republican moderates were getting swept away by the polarization.

That swath of course was merely the projection of journalists who knew too much to feel comfortable with the Trump stench. Very few other people actually cared enough.

Aside from the obvious, that people will put party over their own personal values like you touch on in the first half of your post.

Isn't it ironic that the promising the impossible is one of the primary drivers of the lack of faith in Washington. It's a self-defeating cycle.

One I personally think is leading towards the recent authoritarian bent.

I think it is too. Average people want someone to tell them lies to make them feel better, and many of them want a new other to blame so the Just-World can continue in its illusory glory.

We'll never reach the latter subset, but I think we really can make the world a noticably better place through careful harnessing of technological progress, to the extent that the intent behind any vague promises we make can be fulfilled by such improvements.

It's a gamble, but it's not like this gamble will burn any more than the Republicans have been burned.

 

[cooljeanius]

From volunteering for her campaign, it definitely felt more mismanaged than Obama's, or heck, even Kerry's in some respects

 

[Autoignition]

Your direct assertion that a white voting majority is going to disappear into the ether.

It IS going to disappear into the ether. Right now the projection is 2024, and while I'm not denying that that could possibly change and be pushed back a few years, you're straight up looney tunes if you think that white people are repopulating at even remotely the same rate as other races are immigrating and also populating.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

It IS going to disappear into the ether. Right now the projection is 2024, and while I'm not denying that that could possibly change and be pushed back a few years, you're straight up looney tunes if you think that white people are repopulating at even remotely the same rate as other races are immigrating and also populating.

There are more variables at play than how many people are present in the united states from a certain ethnicity. The assumption can only be that every one of those new demographic caucuses votes the way you want them to, when it's demonstrably not the case. The most reliable vote in the US is still the white vote and that hasn't changed and doesn't look like changing. Throwing them aside will win you no elections.

 

[Autoignition]

There are more variables at play than how many people are present in the united states from a certain ethnicity.

Yes, like population growth. Which is what I just said.

 

[cheezcake]

You vote for people who win elections? You'll be voting for Trump in 2020 with that logic I'm guessing.

What is this post lol? I just pointed out a simple truth and your instinct when you dislike it is to suggest I'm a Trump supporter.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

What is this post lol? I just pointed out a simple truth and your instinct when you dislike it is to suggest I'm a Trump supporter.

No my instinct was to show how your strawman made no sense.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

No my instinct was to show how your strawman made no sense.

Trump beat Hillary. You're the one who is creating strawmen. Adapt or die, that is politics.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Trump beat Hillary. You're the one who is creating strawmen. Adapt or die, that is politics.

You knew Trump beat Hillary before November 8? Are you a time traveller?

 

[cheezcake]

No my instinct was to show how your strawman made no sense.

Point out the strawman.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

You knew Trump beat Hillary before November 8? Are you a time traveller?

Is your attempt to claim a strawman in your own strawman resolved by more strawmen?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Point out the strawman.

What about Trump beating Hillary at an election make him a candidate worth voting for in the 2016 election? What you said was nonsensical. My point is Trump suppprters' fault that they voted Trump, no one else's.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

What about Trump beating Hillary at an election make him a candidate worth voting for in the 2016 election? What you said was nonsensical. My point is Trump suppprters' fault that they voted Trump, no one else's.

When are you going to realise that not everyone who voted for him was a fan?

 

[eqqsquizitine]

What about Trump beating Hillary at an election make him a candidate worth voting for in the 2016 election? What you said was nonsensical. My point is Trump suppprters' fault that they voted Trump, no one else's.

Your failing to understand this beyond an individual level. Of course to you and me Trump is not worth voting for, but he clearly was for 60+ million people, particularly people in the places that (unfortunately) mattered. But none of these are excuses for Clinton who literally lost an election against the most disliked presidential candidate in US history, despite her most staunch supporters claiming that 'electability' was a positive trait she had above all else.

 

[UFO]

What about Trump beating Hillary at an election make him a candidate worth voting for in the 2016 election? What you said was nonsensical. My point is Trump suppprters' fault that they voted Trump, no one else's.

So if a pitcher throws a pitch right down the middle of the plate and the batter hits a HR, it's not the pitchers fault at all?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

From volunteering for her campaign, it definitely felt more mismanaged than Obama's, or heck, even Kerry's in some respects

Any interesting stories you can tell us?

 

[jack_package_200]

Your failing to understand this beyond an individual level. Of course to you and me Trump is not worth voting for, but he clearly was for 60+ million people, particularly people in the places that (unfortunately) mattered. But none of these are excuses for Clinton who literally lost an election against the most disliked presidential candidate in US history, despite her most staunch supporters claiming that 'electability' was a positive trait she had above all else.

Judging by the results of the primary, she was the more electable choice.

For 2020, they need run a newer and younger and sexier kind of candidate who oozes charisma.

I am saying they need Kamala Harris

Spoiler

Yas Queen

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

When are you going to realise that not everyone who voted for him was a fan?

Those who voted for him and didn't like him were Conservative Republicans, not working class whites whom you're trying to sway with Sanders. Working class whites voted for Trump with bounce in their feet. Those "not a fan" Trump voters you are talking about are not going to be swayed by a far-left candidate. Hillary was the best thing they were going to get from the Democratic Party.

Trump is going to get that 46-48% vote no matter what, it would not at all be surprising if he wins in 2020. That indicates a problem with American voters. This is the same country that voted for Bush twice, let's not act like voters can't have a permanent habit of making terrible decisions.