Super "NeoGAF Arcade Stick Thread" II TURBO
- Thread starter MarkMan
- Start date
I'd sure love a shiny new VLX, but something tells me Hori is gonna wait to see what happens before putting a lot of money in the XB1/PS4 market.
It might be wired incorrectly. So you basically have two L1 buttons? If it isn't a simple wire swap, I would go ahead and send it back.
Edit: \/ \/ Oh yeah, the buttons are hardware mappable right? That's probably all it is.
Sorry if this seems obvious, but have you checked to make sure triangle isn't remapped to L1 on the stick? What does it register as in-game before you change it?
^
check the mapping on the stick UI rather than opening up the stick which will probably void the warranty.
StarCreator
Member
The Fighting Edge lets you map any button to any function via the touch panel. Unlock the panel, tap the config button, press and hold the button physically marked Triangle, then press on the lever to change the mapping until the touch panel also says it is assigned to Triangle.
^ what starcreator said
No, I already explained the reason I think I hit 8 consistently now much more than I did before, which is that relatively speaking, it is much, much easier to hit secondaries than it is to hit primaries on square gates. Not to say that is hard to hit primaried, but relatively speaking it is difficult to hit primaries, which is ironic when you think about it. Although mathematically speaking it should be harder to hit secondaries than it is to hit primaries, I have always found it to be perfectly equal intuitively speaking. It's not that it's hard to hit diagonals, not by a long shot you can charge from a diagonal equally as easily as you can charge a primary, the difference is dead zone vs throw, nothing else. Frankly that is a very silly argument to me, if to me all 8 directions on an octagon gate are completely equal in terms of ease to hit, how would short corners be a flaw of design, imo it is actually a good thing because it is a perfect octagon, and there is something important intuitively speaking about the concept of a circle when it comes to how normal it feels to move a joystick in various directions, except that the octagon has a major advantage over the circle which is that it can lock.
I don't think the reason a manufacturer produces square gates as a default is a reasonable argument to bring in to an opinion discussion either, because manufacturers have fundamentally different needs and motivations, and having something be easier and more universal to manufacture would obviously be a major benefit, but it doesn't matter why they chose it when it comes to personal preference, which is all I am really talking about.
10 internet bux says there is an article on wikipedia describing a law named after a modern analyst describing this exact phenomenon involving arguments about mundane shit on the internet, lol.
karasu
Member
Thanks!! that worked like a charm. Now I'm wondering if I may have created the problem in the first place. There were a couple of instances where I mistakenly went into that config mode and I randomly pressed buttons because I didn't know how to get out of it.
It's always a little funny when a feature becomes a problem ;-)
Anyways, now that you know how to use it, that button mapping can be pretty awesome. I've got the somewhat gimped 360 version of the stick which only lets you re-map four of the buttons, but I still get a considerable amount of use from that.
Other tips you might not know: If you want the touch screen disabled AND no LEDs on, hold tournament button (second from bottom) down longer until you hear a second beep. If you want the LEDs on and want to be able to use the touch screen, hold the tournament button until the lights come on then release the button. Then press and hold the button until it beeps twice.
In short: because there are 4 microswitches and not 8.
Yes but regardless I have never once had a problem with the short throw of the secondaries on a GT-Y, I think the small difference is being exaggerated. Sure the throw is slightly over half what the throw of a corner is on a square gate, but given that the throw and the lock is much nicer on the primaries than it is on a square, and that despite the shorter distance, the intuitive benefit of the shape of an octagon makes movement more natural, and that the throw distance is not noticeable unless coming from a square gate which has huge diagonals comparatively, the benefits massively outweigh the mathematical downside of using an octagon, but in practice the big difference isn't noticeable. The only reason I can think of that would make the short throw range a practical problem for a potential player is if the throw was extremely short, so much so that it was hard to hit the diagonal, but despite the numbers it is no more difficult to hit a diagonal on an octagon than it is on a square. because it is completely natural how much space you have to travel, and the motion to hit a diagonal is quite natural if you are in a position already, and equally natural from neutral. When you think of it on a really basic level in terms of joysticks in general, an octagon is just basically a circle where they drew points for each 8 directions, and drew straight lines between those points, so the movement and natural feeling of the throw is similar to a circle, but the ability to lock into all 8 directions is completely unique, and, in my opinion, a huge benefit to using an octagon gate.
All octagonal and circular gates do is restrict actuator movement within an area smaller than a square gate would provide. A square gate essentially means that your joystick is unrestricted and all directions have the same size activation area, while octo/circle gates invariably mean that diagonal activation area is sacrificed. Mechanically speaking, it's not really up for discussion.
Sounds like a personal preference thing. I personally think of joystick motions as just activating a sequence of switches in a 9-square grid, because that's what arcade joysticks are.
Sounds like a personal preference thing. I personally think of joystick motions as just activating a sequence of switches in a 9-square grid, because that's what arcade joysticks are.
I am glad you like your octagonal gate and I feel like I have made it clear why the majority of people prefer square. While it may seem intuitive to you that there are eight directions and eight corners in an octagon - and it is intuitive for fluid motion - the problem is finding diagonals is problematic. You have said this is not a problem for you - good, I am glad. You have found the gate for you.
Well of course mechanically speaking a square gate is superior in many ways, but when it comes to actually using the thing, putting it in the hands of a player, the restricted areas of actuator movement can make a game changing difference. Apparently a lot of people here don't feel that difference because they train themselves to play without ever touching these areas, but for me it made a world of difference.
Is it a problem though? i'm asking this genuinely, because in my personal experience I have never missed a diagonal input before. I can see how mathematically speaking it would be harder to hit diagonals, but I would like to think I am talking to people and not robots, I want to know what you guys personally think, that's all I'm after. I don't think you have made it clear why the majority of people prefer Square. It is abundantly clear why manufacturers prefer them, and why a robot who is programmed to play the-floor-is-lava with the restrictor gate would prefer a square gate, but I haven't heard why you guys personally prefer them, which is all I'm really after. Like for instance if it turns out the majority of people who have used an octagon gate actually did have a lot of trouble hitting diagonals that would make perfect sense to me, or if it turns out the majority of people never touch the restrictor gate, that would also make sense, but given how those two positions are completely contrary to my personal experience I can't imagine a lot of people actually fit into either of those categories. Why do you prefer a square gate? What made you decide it was better to learn how to dodge the gate and play switch only on a square gate instead of going with the seemingly more intuitive alternative? The decision was obvious for me but I quite honestly don't understand your perspective on this. In response to: "I am glad. You have found the gate for you." I certainly have found the gate for me, like it is a world of difference to me, I'm asking this here because I don't get why this isn't the gate for everybody, to me it's friggin' sliced bread.
I just feel that there really isn't anything an octagonal gate can do that isn't just as easy to do on a square gate, while octo gate definitely does some things worse than square (charge characters, standing block to crouching block, quick diagonal transitions). Square gate is the more versatile option.
jesus christ
I prefer square gates because diagonals are** easier to hit and I play a game where that's kind of important. I bought an octo gate five years ago. I think it is butt.
** as in, yes, mathematically true, because although you feel like your octo gate is made out of caramel and sunshine doesn't make it so (also it was made by robots srry)
I find it was a huge improvement for charge characters being able to restrict movement into the primary directions, such as holding back with 100% precision, and being able to do charge back - forward - back - forward much easier, I found standing block to crouching block to be easier as well, because standing block is so much easier to execute, although the actual movement itself is easier on a square gate, I'm not 100% what you mean by quick diagonal transitions, but if you mean what I think you mean which is things like a dash low punch where you are moving across the bottom of the field, although the motion itself is easier on square gates, I think that is quite easily balanced out by the circular movements and the overall more intuitive shape. In my opinion, although the actual physical motion of moving along a straight side of the wall is easier on a square, I really enjoy the tactile feedback I get from going from down+back, to down, to down+forward, it just feels more responsive to me that way, although the actual movement is obviously easier on a square. I also disagree with the idea that the square is more versatile, because although it is literally more versatile in the sense that it can be turned into a 4-way, and is slightly more universal than an octagon, within street fighter itself the ability to play charge characters quite well by the ability to restrict in all 8 directions, you also get the ability to play shotos with a shape that is intuitively circular, which makes for not only much more accurate but much for satisfying quarter/half/full circle motions. I always found that playing balrog one match and zangief the next, then ryu after that was a very very jarring change on a square gate, because the techniques used are almost polar opposites, what with charge characters being held in one position a lot, but then having to ignore the gate as much as possible to get good circle motions, whereas now all the characters feel much more similar and I can switch between them much more naturally. The only character I can't get used to on an octagonal gate is Guile, whereas when I was still on square gate I had a lot of trouble with any character with circular motion moves.
Here I am just assuming everyone is talking about Street Fighter all the time, lol. I have never played Virtua Fighter except for like VF2 many many years ago, so I didn't actually know diagonals were very important in that game. I play Street Fighter IV, UMVC3, and I really poorly play Tekken 6, and in those games the octo has huge advantages imo. I can't speak for Virtua Fighter. Actually diagonals are really huge in tekken as well as Virtua I think, I usually switch to a square for tekken just because you have to hit neutral so often in that game whereas in the other 2 games I play you can stay held in a direction for as long as you want pretty much. I won't argue that a square is better for 3d fighters, I agree with that actually, I am more comfortable playing Tekken on a square gate, but I am a trainwreck when it comes to 3d fighters so it doesn't make much of a difference what kind of joystick I am using to play those games, I forgot to take that into account. I can basically end the argument right there lol, I was completely oblivious the whole time that you play VF, and when it comes to 3d games I completely agree with you about most of the benefits of square gates, but I mainly play 2D fighters and the way inputs are executed is completely different between those genres, so there really is nothing I can say about that, you never need to hit neutral in street fighter. When you don't need to hit neutral I find the octo to be far superior, and I know the square is a lot better in 3D when you do constantly have to be touching neutral.
Here I'll repose my question to the proper audience, 2D fighter fans that prefer square gates, why do you prefer square over octagon?
PS: Sorry for temporarily derailing the main thread, the topic is too small for it's own thread, and too irrelevant for any other of the big FGC threads.
PS: Sorry for temporarily derailing the main thread, the topic is too small for it's own thread, and too irrelevant for any other of the big FGC threads.
Guile's Double Flash Kick.
Because I know how to play with a square gate and I don't think the octagonal gate's potential benefits make up for what I lose in exchange. I can do quarter circles, half circles and 360s all day, every day on a square gate, so an octo gate would be pointless. It seems you like the feel of octagonals and that's fine, I just don't agree that they're an improvement over square gates.
hairypeckpeck
Member
There's some irony in this post - the dead zone on octo gates is actually larger than on square gates, making neutral easier to find which is why some Tekken players prefer octo gates.
I played SF years before I mained VF - that's when I tried octo gate and rejected it. It's good for motion fluidity, and I played a charge character so that advantage kinda didn't matter.
Because corners, and because other than corners the gate doesn't matter 'cuz I don't touch it.
Man, I'll tell ya. These square vs octo gate debates are always passionate on both sides. For what it's worth (not much), I grew up on octo gates like most Americans and then got used to using square gates when I bought my first Hori stick years ago. I've found that I prefer square gates because of the more tactile diagonals. I never ride the gate when motioning for special moves and such. The only time my stick is touching the gate is when it's placed firmly in a corner for crouch-blocking.
That being said, if you're not riding the gate then either one will be almost the same. The diagonals are the only real difference in my experience. I'm coming from a place of playing mostly 2D fighters, however. Can't say if it makes more of a difference for Tekken and VF.
That being said, if you're not riding the gate then either one will be almost the same. The diagonals are the only real difference in my experience. I'm coming from a place of playing mostly 2D fighters, however. Can't say if it makes more of a difference for Tekken and VF.
mdsfx
Member
Aren't they? The problem is, even if you scientifically prove that one is more accurate/responsive than the other, it doesnt matter since everyone plays differently and is used to one or the other. Im sure there are plenty of people at Evo laying down some sick game with all kinds of joystick set-ups.
In the end, since we arent robots and we are all different, it just boils down to preference. Or we could just all agree that everyone elses gate sucks.
sixteen-bit
Member
Is that true? I was under the impression that American arcade machines used levers that were are either circular or square, not octagonal.
While I certainly came across some circular gates in the halcyon days of my youth in arcades, I'm pretty sure that lots of fighting game cabinets used octo-gates as well. I don't recall ever using a square gate in an American arcade, but then again I wasn't really paying attention to that at the time.
I grew up in American arcades, and I can say that I didn't see a lot of octagonal gates. Of course mileage varies.
Well, arcade machines were quite the mixed bag then. Arcade operators were piecing together cabinets from all over the place, it seemed. I definitely very clearly remember playing Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct on octo-gates, though.
mdsfx
Member
Most likely they were Happ 360's right? I thought those were just circular? Thats what i remember anyway. I dont remember joysticks with clicking microswitches in arcades.
They were most likely Happ sticks, yeah. They didn't have clicking microswitches, from what I can remember, but I'm pretty certain that I played on some octo-gates back then. My memory could just be playing tricks on me. Can anyone else attest to this?
As far as XB1/PS4 are concerned -- still not enough there to make me take the plunge if I could afford it even. I still want a backup PS3 before I even consider buying a PS4 or XB1.
I think ultimately that's why there are next to no next-gen joysticks out there now. The product just generally doesn't exist on the new consoles unless you're a Killer Instinct fan or care to play a warmed-over, hardly upgraded Injustice port on either new system. I haven't even bothered with Injustice on the PS3!
I think some of the Japanese companies have concerns about the new generation of consoles... nobody's entirely convinced that the current gen will be a huge success over time. PS3 and XBox 360 didn't make money for their manufacturers and a lot of developers bled money on software product that just didn't meet their sales expectations last-gen. Besides that, there is the ever-looming spectre of Fukushima hanging over all of Japan. People in the West just have next-to-no information being reported about this in the mainstream media. Scary news sites and alarmists aside, there is something going on there that shouldn't be ignored... I'm seriously considering changing my own eating habits, too, and just not eating fish unless I know it's not coming from the Pacific.
StarCreator
Member
... what did I just read?
A friend just came back after having lived in Fukushima for the last two years. We hugged. I'm pretty sure neither of us are dying.
That explains it! GergeC's ramblings are clearly due to the neural degradation caused by poisoned fish. Whew, glad to have finally gotten to the bottom of this.
(The PS4 just launched in Japan, the XBone doesn't even have a date. Hori would probably like to wait at least until a single fighting game is released in their territory before releasing a new stick.)
(The PS4 just launched in Japan, the XBone doesn't even have a date. Hori would probably like to wait at least until a single fighting game is released in their territory before releasing a new stick.)
I never said they weren't. I said that I don't think that the first stick that Hori puts out for next gen is gonna be a 300+dollar monster stick.
Fair enough, I always had trouble with doing circles on a square gate though, no matter how much I tried to consciously override my instinct that I'm playing on a circle, I always hit a wall of the restrictor from time to time, bothered the hell outta me.
hmm. I didn't people actually felt that. I personally have never had trouble with corners on an octagon, I have my stick right in front of me and I can find all 4 corners perfectly without blinking an eye, although I have had years of practice. I can definitely understand the fact that it is easier to hit corners on a square, because literally speaking there really isn't any specific points to hit that aren't the corners, but I have never had trouble with corners on an octagon. The only corner I have trouble with on an octagon is the 3 direction, but that is due to the way I hold the joystick not the restrictor plate I am using. On top of that I have adapted a technique of moving into or out of corners by just riding the gate for lack of a better term. Like for example if I am charging straight left, and want to go left+down, I just click it into the next position and hold it there instead, which can make some inputs easier but not many really.
Deadzone is actually equal on any gate you can put on the joystick. The percentage of overall area is larger on an octagon than it is on a square, but the actual physical size of the deadzone is 100% equal because the restrictor doesn't change the placement of the switches. I've never heard of Tekken players having preference for octagon gates, as far as I knew Tekken as played almost exclusively with circles and squares, and I actually prefer playing that game with a square because the inputs are much more demanding than they are in street fighter, and a lot of them, like WGF, require very quick return to neutral, followed by a down to down+right movement, which a square gate suits perfectly, whereas I feel that circular motions and charge motions are significantly more prevalent in street fighter. I'm curious, which character did you play in Street Fighter? I understand that a lot of people prefer square gate because of character like guile that have a huge emphasis on movements that are straight lines across a square, but the characters I main are Ryu, Balrog, Seth, Zangief, Akuma, and Abel, and I felt like the octagon gate helped my execution pretty heavily on all of those characters, especially balrog ironically. This one is probably unique to me, but when I do charge motions, like crouch+block into dash punch, I really like the extra distance and extra feedback I get when I swing the lever into the forward position, with a square gate I still did this, but I used to slam the joystick a lot by accident because I always feel like moving the stick quite far when I do charge moves like that. That one is 100% me, and completely contrary to what someone who masters their inputs would do, but I have always liked it, it makes it more satisfying to me.
You sound really elitist when you say that.
You grew up on octo gates, say what? I'm a 90's kid mind you, but every single street fighter game I played when I was young had a happ joystick, one of the ones with no real restrictor, but a circular feeling to it. The thing with the tradeoff for less emphasis on diagonals to equal emphasis on all possible angles is that although diagonals are easier to hit on a square, that is mainly because there is no real other point on the gate to hit, it's just walls connecting corners, whereas on an octagon gate it's not that the corners aren't there or aren't satisfying to hit, it's that they are equally satisfying to every other direction on the joystick, as opposed to corners specifically being handicapped.
I know it just boils down to preference, that's why I'm asking people what their preference is, and why. The reason I'm wondering in the first place is because, to me, the octagon is miles better than a square gate, but that is probably just because the way I happen to hold my joystick, input moves, and some other factors happen to suit an octagonal or circular shape much better than my style suits a square, but the difference is so enormous to me that I don't really understand why the mass consensus seems to be that everyone prefers square gates, so I'm trying to find out why. Also, rhombus gate master race, corners are for plebs.
I'm not so sure you understand how arcade sticks work. All you need to do to get your stick working on a new console is acquire licensing and in the case of Microsoft acquire authentication chips. It's not like they need to start redesigning sticks from the ground up in order to work on a next gen console. Unless their potential user base is so phenomenally low that the licensing fee would outweigh their profit, you can bet that they will make sticks for the next gen consoles.
I'd think early would be the best time to put it out. Same mindset as early adopters for consoles. Hardcore will buy it first, those less interest would wait.
Any stick for PS4 would make me actually buy the system. Dead-boring system otherwise. One is just as snoozy but at least it has two sticks for it (one reason I actually bought the system already).
Give me a high-end Hori stick, and I'll adopt!
I'm going to quote myself from earlier in this thread in case you missed it. All you need to do to get your stick working on a new console is acquire licensing and in the case of Microsoft acquire authentication chips. It's not like they need to start redesigning sticks from the ground up in order to work on a next gen console. Unless their potential user base is so phenomenally low that the licensing fee would outweigh their profit, you can bet that they will make sticks for the next gen consoles. You guys are massively overestimating the difficulty of porting over a pcb for a stick. The only reason companies haven't started porting over their arcade sticks is because there are no major multiplatform fighting games yet. There is no good reason to sell a stick if there is nothing to use it with, there is also no reason to buy a stick if you have nothing to use it with, especially considering that the PS4 is backwards compatible for usb controllers I'm pretty sure. You can safely place your trust in Hori and MadCatz to release sticks for the next gen consoles when there is a reason for people to buy them, businesses like money.
That stick is a fucking work of art.I didn't know the VLX existed until a couple weeks ago. I want one so bad now.
hikarutilmitt
Member
Nobody plays on tables, I just put it there so I could record the screen and my hand. You can see when I play more naturally I hit the 3 direction cleaner.
mmmmm look at that shit, inputs so clean you could eat right off em. And yes that is a one-frame knee, I'm coming to kick your ass west coast!
But yeah, shelve that "2,4,6 and 8 are hard to hit on square gate" BS because it is 100% false. that's not how microswitches work.
Dem 1 frame knees. sogood.gif
On the otherwise touchy but at least well-argued subject of the octo/square, you really should just use what you're used to. I wouldn't want to say that players who were used to frequenting American arcades where Happ/IL parts ruled the day should use an octo because it doesn't solve the feel problem, it just makes it closer. You can get round gates for JLFs and Seimitsus pretty easily, if you need them.
VF and, to a lesser extent, Tekken are what actually got me used to squares somewhat, because I had to be able to reliably hit a diagonal and it's far easier to find in one motion when it's a square than octagonal, though swapping between our HF cabinets at work and my LS40 at home I've actually gotten used to both.
If you're used to square, use square. If you're used to circular, use circular. Just, for the love of god, get a stick with a short throw!
I agree with most of this. The only thing in your post that caught me off guard was the part I bolded in the quote. Does anyone even make large throw sticks anymore? Speaking from experience I really enjoy using happ joysticks just for shits and giggles because despite the incredible ineffiency of a lever with so much required force and such a far throw, it is still to this day fun as hell to play mash fighter. There is really nothing that can recreate the feeling of playing street fighter with this giant indestructible joystick and those awesome indesctructible concave buttons with a very solid base like an arcade in a box or an actual arcade machine. When I am at a tournament I always play with a JLF equipped with a GT-Y octagon and 8 OBSF-30s, but I get a real kick out of playing with my arcade-in-a-box sometimes. Interesting fact: I didn't buy my AIAB, but I got the schematics straight from the guy who manufactured them and built one myself.
hikarutilmitt
Member
Most sticks have shorter throws than there used to be, but I mean specifically a shorter throw on something like an LS40 or LS32 versus a JLF. The LS40 also has an advantage to go along with this as it has a really small engage distance, so it's really great for playing shmups and fighting games alike.
adamantypants
Member
In my arcades I definitely played octo gates and circle gates. The first time I ever even experienced a square gate was playing on my own stick I purchased for SFIV. Growing up though, I didn't play fighters. I'm talking mostly sidescrolling brawlers and puzzle type games.
Growing up on those though it was a huge transition to square gates. After using them for a while I can totally see why square is preferable for fighting games. At higher level play I definitely find it harder to hit the diagonals with 100% consistency. Sure I'll hit it most of the time but I definitely miss. And I'd rather get 100% than 90%.
Growing up on those though it was a huge transition to square gates. After using them for a while I can totally see why square is preferable for fighting games. At higher level play I definitely find it harder to hit the diagonals with 100% consistency. Sure I'll hit it most of the time but I definitely miss. And I'd rather get 100% than 90%.
Yup. LS-40 is my weapon of choice. The only thing I'd change about it is add a stiffer spring, otherwise it's perfect.