Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U Thread 5: Yarning for Yoshi
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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About Zelda newcomers... I'm personally on #TeamImpa right now, since she's had a recurring role in the series, and her latest appearance (Skyward Sword) is her most significant in terms of story, and also her coolest design, and one that would lend itself to a nifty ninja move-set with time-shift shenanigans -- maybe even a form change between her youthful self and her wizened elder form, the latter floating cross-legged and casting time-distortion magic (ideas courtesy of Azure J).
Previously, I was on #TeamToonZelda. I could still see Toon Zelda happening, either with Toon Sheik (as was the plan for Brawl, as indicated by leftover files), or ideally, with Tetra. Toon Zelda has her fair share of games at this point -- Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Minish Cap, Four Swords Adventures -- and she'd create symmetry with Toon Link, and with regular Zelda.
But I wonder about #TeamGhirahim. On the one hand, Ghirahim seems limited -- a recurring villain, but not the main villain, in only one installment in the series. Then again, that one installment was the 25th anniversary milestone installment... And he could have the gimmick of growing more metallic as he fights, perhaps... And/or the Final Smash of playable Demise. Catching enemy attacks with his fingertips could make for an interesting counter move. Shooting diamond-shaped magic and wielding a lance could comprise other attacks, while warping around the room would make for interesting mobility options. When Ghirahim's design was first revealed, he immediately stood out as a Smash Bros. candidate, similar to Magnus from Kid Icarus Uprising. But I wonder if, like Magnus, he's been overshadowed by other characters to the point where he's not a likely choice for newcomer status.
Hmm...
Of course, there is also #TeamTingle... and one of my favorites, #TeamMasksLink, although the latter seems improbable unless a Majora's Mask 3D is announced. Even then, three Links on one roster... Hard to say. And I suppose there is always the possibility of #TeamGanon -- no longer a Final Smash, he could become a proper form change, appearing in bipedal form like the 2D games (and end of OoT).
With Mario getting a newcomer in Rosalina & Luma, a Zelda newcomer seems likely, doesn't it? But who to pick, who to pick... I'd really like to see Impa.
Previously, I was on #TeamToonZelda. I could still see Toon Zelda happening, either with Toon Sheik (as was the plan for Brawl, as indicated by leftover files), or ideally, with Tetra. Toon Zelda has her fair share of games at this point -- Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Minish Cap, Four Swords Adventures -- and she'd create symmetry with Toon Link, and with regular Zelda.
But I wonder about #TeamGhirahim. On the one hand, Ghirahim seems limited -- a recurring villain, but not the main villain, in only one installment in the series. Then again, that one installment was the 25th anniversary milestone installment... And he could have the gimmick of growing more metallic as he fights, perhaps... And/or the Final Smash of playable Demise. Catching enemy attacks with his fingertips could make for an interesting counter move. Shooting diamond-shaped magic and wielding a lance could comprise other attacks, while warping around the room would make for interesting mobility options. When Ghirahim's design was first revealed, he immediately stood out as a Smash Bros. candidate, similar to Magnus from Kid Icarus Uprising. But I wonder if, like Magnus, he's been overshadowed by other characters to the point where he's not a likely choice for newcomer status.
Hmm...
Of course, there is also #TeamTingle... and one of my favorites, #TeamMasksLink, although the latter seems improbable unless a Majora's Mask 3D is announced. Even then, three Links on one roster... Hard to say. And I suppose there is always the possibility of #TeamGanon -- no longer a Final Smash, he could become a proper form change, appearing in bipedal form like the 2D games (and end of OoT).
With Mario getting a newcomer in Rosalina & Luma, a Zelda newcomer seems likely, doesn't it? But who to pick, who to pick... I'd really like to see Impa.
Troubled Bat
Member
I was on #TeamSkullKid once, but then life went into a meaningless black hole that kept taking everything around it, eventually being left nothing but emptiness. I am now that emptiness.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Put me on #TeamGanon. Dorfless, yes. Forget swords, more sceptres. I want a Ganon that's big, blue, and piggy.
GiantBreadbug
Member
I think I'm on #TeamNoZeldaNewcomerButInsteadAnotherPokemonNewcomer.
I don't know why I see the two at odds, but I do. And as much as I like SS Impa (a lot), I want another Pokemon more.
I don't know why I see the two at odds, but I do. And as much as I like SS Impa (a lot), I want another Pokemon more.
Tingle would just take up a "slot" of a more deserving characters /s
Zelda's my favorite series, but I feel it doesn't need anyone else. There hasn't really been any new stand out recurring characters that I personally would want. As long as we have Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf I'm good. Impa is recurring, but personally I just don't care about her.
The only other Zelda character who deserves to be in Smash Bros.!
Well, Impa is acceptable as well, I suppose. BUT DOES IMPA HAVE HER OWN SPIN-OFF GAMES?! I DON'T THINK SO! =P
Slime for SSB6.
Hey, for all we know, Square-Enix might have a character planned for the game. They've supported the 3DS and WiiU about as much as Capcom, which is to say, quite a bit of support for 3DS, and not so much for WiiU. They also have characters that have their share of history, like Mega Man does. I could see SE getting a character. It's not for us to say what constitutes "too many third-party characters" -- only Sakurai.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
A Red Mage replacing Snake would be just fine by me.
Ooo that would be fun and zelda shows that it works well.
Then there's the issue that square would probably only allow lightning to be in smash but that would work well for palutena.
Heh, the way I see it for tingle is that he is just a bizarre weird dude with weird history and weird items in his arsenal that could be used to create an original/different fighter than the rest of the roster. Impa would just be a Shiek, and Ghirahim (one of the most black/white/anime cliche characters in game history) is just another dude with a sword. Though he could teleport, which I guess is cool.. but not cool enough.
JUST LOOK AT THOSE ROSEY FUCKING CHEEKS.
JUST LOOK AT THOSE ROSEY FUCKING CHEEKS.
MisterHero
Super Member
Megaman, Sonic, and Pac-Man [it's like 99% confirmed, Namco's in on this!] are enough to dedicate an Event Match to 3rd-party characters. Throwing more in would make that impossible unless the match had more player slots like the Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy matches.
god those events in Melee/Brawl were tough
I'd much prefer to have a few more 3rd-party characters though.
god those events in Melee/Brawl were tough
I'd much prefer to have a few more 3rd-party characters though.
Given the infamous Sal Romano leak, I'll say Pac-Man's a safe guess to join the battle.
...Uncertain about Snake, though...
Holy shit, come up with a name for this character idea and I'm all for it.
Chalk it up to my OCD, but sometimes it's the lack of a character name that makes it hard for me to get behind an idea. For example, I wasn't too warm on "Animal Crossing Townsperson," as everyone used to call him, but when Sakurai came up with the simple "Villager," the idea become so much more concrete. Elegance in simplicity!
Or the event match against third-party characters could simply spawn new characters as you defeat other ones. For example, you start against Sonic and Snake, defeat them, and then Pac-Man and Mega Man take their place.
This is mostly how I feel.
Impa is sort of like the Toad of the Zelda series, only much less prominent (she appears in fewer games and isn't playable in any of them). I really don't see why she'd ever be included. She's the NPC protector of the NPC damsel in distress. That's pretty far down the totem pole of character roles worth being playable in Smash Bros. And as unique as the time-based transformation idea is, Impa is not nearly important enough to receive that kind of attention as a two-in-one character. It just simply isn't a realistic expectation.
If we have to rack our brains to come up with a decent fifth Zelda character then I think we have to ask ourselves if a fifth Zelda character is worth including at all. The Mario series only had four characters in Brawl -- it actually lost a rep from Melee. Even though it's Nintendo's biggest series, Sakurai didn't shoehorn a newcomer in for the sake of it.
In the somewhat unlikely event that the Zelda series does get a newcomer, I really don't see how it could be anyone other than Toon Zelda and/or Tetra. She's the only Zelda character with a recurring focal role left (being the titular character and all), she was planned for Brawl, and she'd be relatively easy to include.
Event Match #50:
Team Rocket has been conducting experiments to make Pokémon fighters who are independent of their trainers. Unfortunately they have escaped. Defeat them before they bring doom to us all! Rumours have they been working on an ultimate weapon who is meant to highly dangerous...
After defeating, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario and PKMN Trainer's 'Mon (obviously they hide the trainer because of the scenario) out comes
.
Team Rocket has been conducting experiments to make Pokémon fighters who are independent of their trainers. Unfortunately they have escaped. Defeat them before they bring doom to us all! Rumours have they been working on an ultimate weapon who is meant to highly dangerous...
After defeating, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario and PKMN Trainer's 'Mon (obviously they hide the trainer because of the scenario) out comes
Tingle
MannyToons
Member
Heh, the way I see it for tingle is that he is just a bizarre weird dude with weird history and weird items in his arsenal that could be used to create an original/different fighter than the rest of the roster. Impa would just be a Shiek, and Ghirahim (one of the most black/white/anime cliche characters in game history) is just another dude with a sword. Though he could teleport, which I guess is cool.. but not cool enough.
JUST LOOK AT THOSE ROSEY FUCKING CHEEKS.
Characters that aren't based around fighting is what I'm hoping to see more of in Smash Bros.. Tingle would be a perfect Zelda newcomer.
You could've said the same thing about Rosalina, though. She was playable in Mario Kart and as a hidden character in 3D World... but so was Toad, as a default character in all of those games and more. And Toad looks more unique next to the other Mario characters than Rosalina does next to Peach.
I wouldn't rule out Impa. Sakurai could very well have half a mind to add something for the Zelda fanbase.
EDIT: I do agree Toon Zelda is quite likely in the event of a Zelda newcomer, though. I just wouldn't rule out Impa.
MisterHero
Super Member
Having all of them on screen at the same time is the novelty though.
Actually it would be an interesting development if Sakurai threw in 6 or 8 player support. I have no idea if that's possibile offline + various wii controllers, but online could be huge.
I'm ok with this especially if he has his dissidia move set.
Niiiiiiiiice
I'm pretty sure Toad is in a worse position even if he is playable in some games, he is clearly a filler character because they had no one else to make playable. They chose Mario enemies like hot head and even made up new Mario characters before making him a partner in Paper Mario. People really hyperbole his popularity outside of cart games. He is generally the character people treat like crap in NSMB if they end up playing as him in a group.
I remember pre-Super Paper Mario, there were a bunch of people who honestly and adamantly believed the last playable character was Toad, any faith I had in the internet even if tiny, was all lost at that point.
Nope nope nope.
First off, even Nintendo has noted (in Iwata Asks, for example) that Toad is surprisingly popular, and so they think his inclusion in various games is justified.
Second, Paper Mario hardly proves anything. What you describe is more the consequence of Toads comprising the common NPCs of the game more than anything else.
I'm not arguing for his inclusion in Smash (although that could be arranged -- I know he's Peach's shield, but they could swap in Toadsworth instead), but I am saying he's more popular than you suggest.
Shadow Hog
Member
When Toad joins the battle, Alfonzo stands in for Peach's B attack.
Alfonzo: "Leave it to... me?"
Alfonzo: "Leave it to... me?"
MannyToons
Member
Including Toad as a playable character in Smash Bros. would be the equivalent of introducing Koopa Troopa as a newcomer. Unlike Yoshi, there is no specific member of the species to single out. Toad is just a generic species with no one Toad that we've picked out from the bunch (no, Captain Toad doesn't count, as that is a characterization of the species and wouldn't represent the actual character(s) at all).
The only potential Mario newcomers I see as viable are Bowser Jr. and Waluigi. Paper Mario only if we get another Dr. Mario situation in which the Super Mario icon is slapped on 'im.
The only potential Mario newcomers I see as viable are Bowser Jr. and Waluigi. Paper Mario only if we get another Dr. Mario situation in which the Super Mario icon is slapped on 'im.
Pretty sure that was not the main reason. After people questioned why they didn't use the Wario Bros. and used generic Toads, they said the Wario Bros. were not similar in shape to the Mario Bros so they went with Toads. I'm assuming to make that reason seem less like an excuse they added that Toad was "popular" when as far as I have seen it's not really the case outside of party games.
I came up with an idea for a Tingle moveset that was based around the Rupee Land mechanics of hiring fighters that involved a rupee metre. Well seeing as Little Mac has a K.O. metre I guess my idea wasn't completely out of the realms of possibilities.
If we needed a fifth Zelda character, I'd want Vaati - was a recurring main villain in 3 games (ok, kinda 2~.) The human-shape form in Minish cap would make sense as a playable character, and with a little creativity I think a magic based move set could be cool.
A case could be made for Tingle, but he's kind of annoying and I wouldn't really want him.
Impa you already mentioned, and it's reasonable enough. Still unlikely, but it wouldn't be stupid or anything.
There are some one offs that could potentially be cool, but just aren't important enough to warrant the space. Ghirahim, Ralph, Onox, Veran, Skull Kid, Byrnne (no idea how to spell that, lol), etc etc.
Dark Link would be cool if given a distinct moveset, and definitely and interesting character. He's the exact definition of someone that should only be an alt costume though, like Daisy. Mask Link is the other possibility that comes to mind, but I think it would serve best as a moveset change for Young Link, and somewhat problematically for him, Young Link now is more focused as a character showing off the WW's style.
Ultimately, I don't think we'll see a new Zelda character, but who knows.
A case could be made for Tingle, but he's kind of annoying and I wouldn't really want him.
Impa you already mentioned, and it's reasonable enough. Still unlikely, but it wouldn't be stupid or anything.
There are some one offs that could potentially be cool, but just aren't important enough to warrant the space. Ghirahim, Ralph, Onox, Veran, Skull Kid, Byrnne (no idea how to spell that, lol), etc etc.
Dark Link would be cool if given a distinct moveset, and definitely and interesting character. He's the exact definition of someone that should only be an alt costume though, like Daisy. Mask Link is the other possibility that comes to mind, but I think it would serve best as a moveset change for Young Link, and somewhat problematically for him, Young Link now is more focused as a character showing off the WW's style.
Ultimately, I don't think we'll see a new Zelda character, but who knows.
Yes, that was the design decision, but the popularity issue came up in a separate context. It's also worth noting Toad was playable as far back as Super Mario Bros. 2 (or SMB USA in Japan -- the Doki Doki reskin) on the NES/Famicon. Point is, he carries credentials well beyond Rosalina's limited run, and has a more distinct profile and appearance -- and yet Rosalina got in. Impa had a striking presence in Skyward Sword like Rosalina did in Galaxy 1, and along with her recurring role in the series and the potential for a unique gameplay model (time shift), or even something iterative (another ninja), she could very well work her way into Smash.
I do think Toon Zelda is the safer guess, if there is to be another Zelda newcomer, but I don't Sakurai is one to always be so conservative.
Toad's problem is his genericness. There are many, many Toads out there. Toad isn't a single, stand out character. Well, unless you're specifically talking about Captain Toad, but he can do even less than a normal Toad. Yes, characters like Yoshi, Villager, and Pokémon characters got in despite their own genericness, but the difference there is that those characters are the star of their own franchise, or in Pokémon's case, pretty much all potential characters from the franchise are generic. Toad is not the star of his franchise, and there are many other non-generic Mario characters that can be chosen before him.
Waddle Dee is in the same boat as Toad here. They're both important to their franchises, yes, but they appear in Smash Bros. not as their own character, but through another character's move set (Peach, Kind Dedede).
Waddle Dee is in the same boat as Toad here. They're both important to their franchises, yes, but they appear in Smash Bros. not as their own character, but through another character's move set (Peach, Kind Dedede).
ChimpBottle
Member
Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Yoshi and Peach makes six
Yoshi and Wario represent their own franchises in Smash Bros., not the Mario series.
Might as well count DK at that point.
Again, I'm not arguing -for- Toad, but I am saying the above is an invalid argument. Toad appears in another character's moveset? Swap in Toadsworth (which would make more sense for Peach, anyways, Toadsworth being THE royal attendant).
The generic issue ends with Yoshi, frankly. He is the namesake of his own series, but he is also an innumerable race of samey-looking dinos that can't be pinpointed to just -one- Yoshi. And of course, this goes doubly so for Villager, where you play as an avatar that neither looks the same from person to person (thus lacking a definitive "look") nor has a namesake in the title of the franchise.
Toad is an instantly recognizable character. It doesn't matter if there is one Toad or millions of Toads. Toad still appears in countless Mario games, many of them in a playable capacity. He's certainly every bit as deserving as Rosalina from a uniqueness standpoint, an iconic standpoint, a credentialed standpoint -- but again, I'm not arguing for him. I'm just saying that saying "Impa is like Toad and therefore can't get in" is not sound logic.
Exactly. Not to mention there's nothing wrong with characters having similar special moves. It's like saying Lucario shouldn't be in because he uses a charge beam like Samus.
I'm not really supporting Impa, I think it would be nice to see her included to kind of tie a character to the SS references in the game, but I'm not too concerned otherwise. I just found it weird to say Toad would be more likely. I think we pretty much reached our limit of Mario newcomers this time around anyway. I'm glad Sakurai got her out of the way honestly. I think seeing Toad as such a devalued characters is what makes him, Toad, otherwise most of the fan media we have would not use that element as the punchline. He's just not good for a Smash character. Maybe a Captain Toad assist?
The balloon could simply float upwards instead of doing the Kirby-esque bobbing that villager seems to have.
Going back to characters as alts, I still feel like Daisy in place of Peach would be weird. It's the equivalent of giving Mario a Luigi or Wario alt. Daisy's personality seems to be the more tomboyish-athletic type and can potentially have a wildly different moveset from Peach's. Though I do think having another princess would saturate the game with one archetype.
You better mean Alfonso.