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[JoeInky]

I do think a defensive smash game is worse, if not just from a player perspective then from a spectator perspective.


Brawl is a horrible spectator game to anyone who is just watching without an understanding of the core mechanics, even more so to most people who do know about the game.


Also how is smash inherently defensive, 64 and Melee were both offensive games, brawl is the outlier, not the standard.

 

[Toxi]

Is that creature from those old Taco Bell commercials?

It's a Honduran white bat.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Sakurai is Goldilocks.

 

[Lunar15]

I do think a defensive smash game is worse, if not just from a player perspective then from a spectator perspective.


Brawl is a horrible spectator game to anyone who is just watching without an understanding of the core mechanics, even more so to most people who do know about the game.

Basically this. Nothing about Brawl was more accessible, it really only managed to turn off some people. That seems antithesis to his goal.

I say this all with a full understanding that I do actually love brawl, just not as much as melee. I'll probably love Smash 4 too, no matter how it plays

Spoiler

because I can be palutena

 

[Anura]

I find it weird that people are implying that Melee in tournament setting would wreck a newcomer faster than brawl in a similar setting. Brawl players would wreck people just as hard.

You spend time to learn the game, you get good at the game.

 

[ffdgh]

It's a Honduran white bat.

Daww..creepy cute.

 

[BakedYams]

It's a Honduran white bat.

We would be great friends IRL toxi hahaha, I find your post more on the odd/passionate end which is awesome.

Also, pretty glad I didn't stay up. Freaking assist trophy was shown again unless my eyes are playing tricks on me...

 

[PadWarrior]

It's a Honduran white bat.

Nasty lol

 

[jph139]

Aww Honduran white bats are the cutest.

Look at 'em snuggling! They're like little Pokemon! (Well, technically they are, sorta...)

 

[MrSaturn99]

I'm going to play you online, and it's going to be Groose vs. Groose, SS items only, Skyloft.

I will make you suffer.

BUT LUNAR!!!!! You're just playing how you want to play! Weren't you paying attention to the current conversation?!?

Spoiler

Just make it's set to the rock guitar SS theme arrangement. I always bust out laughing whenever I hear it in the direct.

 

[-Horizon-]

It's a Honduran white bat.

That is adorable!

 

[IntelliHeath]

Look at this bat. IS THIS BAT SO ADORABLE!!?!

 

[Cody_D165]

I find it weird that people are implying that Melee in tournament setting would wreck a newcomer faster than brawl in a similar setting. Brawl players would wreck people just as hard.

You spend time to learn the game, you get good at the game.

Of course. The more experienced player will always dominate against someone with little prior experience. That's true with any game. But with Melee, there are techniques any casual player will not know about. A player who has perfected L-canceling and knows the repercussions behind not using it will easily wreck a player that does not know L-canceling even exists.

With Smash, Sakurai wants the players to know what tools are in their arsenal from the moment they pick up the game. L-cancels and wavedashes, amongst other things, intentional or not, went against this vision.

 

[emb]

It looks troubled.

 

[Lunar15]

BUT LUNAR!!!!! You're just playing how you want to play! Weren't you paying attention to the current conversation?!?

Spoiler

Just make it's set to the rock guitar SS theme arrangement. I always bust out laughing whenever I hear it in the direct.

Nope, you're getting Fi's theme on repeat, and you're going to like it.

Also, I just realized how funny I would find it if they replaced Resetti's assist trophy with Fi who pops up over gameplay to tell you really obvious things. The frustration on your face would be priceless.

 

[PadWarrior]

It looks troubled.

Lol i see what you did

 

[BassForever]

Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.

Pretty fantastic post

 

[Professor Beef]

Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[JoeInky]

Of course. The more experienced player will always dominate against someone with little prior experience. That's true with any game. But with Melee, there are techniques any casual player will not know about. A player who has perfected L-canceling and knows the repercussions behind not using it will easily wreck a player that does not know L-canceling even exists.

With Smash, Sakurai wants the players to know what tools are in their arsenal from the moment they pick up the game. L-cancels and wavedashes, amongst other things, intentional or not, went against this vision.

Why are pivot cancels in smash 4? Why can Bowser crouch cancel in smash 4?

These are things that probably aren't going to be explained in game, should they be removed because they'll give a player who knows about them an advantage?


Would this all have been fine if L-cancelling was explained in the manual like it was in Smash 64?

 

[SmithnCo]

Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.

I agree completely.

 

[Anura]

Of course. The more experienced player will always dominate against someone with little prior experience. That's true with any game. But with Melee, there are techniques any casual player will not know about. A player who has perfected L-canceling and knows the repercussions behind not using it will easily wreck a player that does not know L-canceling even exists.

With Smash, Sakurai wants the players to know what tools are in their arsenal from the moment they pick up the game. L-cancels and wavedashes, amongst other things, intentional or not, went against this vision.

Just look at the Ice Climbers or glide tossing or DACUS. Glitches aren't even what most of the fans are asking for in this smash.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Look at this bat. IS THIS BAT SO ADORABLE!!?!

Looks like trouble.

 

[ffdgh]

Look at this bat. IS THIS BAT SO ADORABLE!!?!

http://i.imgur.com/VXCD20s.jpg[/IM][/QUOTE]

[b][i][u]NO[/b][/i][/u]

 

[-Horizon-]

Look at this bat. IS THIS BAT SO ADORABLE!!?!

It looks troubled.

 

[Lunar15]

*snip*

I actually agree with your feelings about how smash plays and how it was created to run counter to prevailing fighting game ideas, however I still just think that Melee was more fun to play. You're talking to a guy that doesn't even know how to wavedash. It still stands to reason that Sakurai could have made Brawl easily accessible while not adding the things he did.

I would also argue that most non-competitive players would have difficulty performing well in any highly competitive setting... for any game. Anyone can pick up soccer and know how to play it, but they'd get absolutely trashed if they played against pros, and probably not have a fun time during it.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

[QUOTE="D";123851081]My thread got locked, and like I said in it I DO know its still an early build of the game but what do you guys think about Megaman's potential based on what we've seen so far?[/QUOTE]

I know this is a somewhat old post, but I made a mental note of it while on my phone so I could return to it when I was on my computer. Being the newcomer I'm most excited about, I played a TON of Mega Man at E3 and Comic-Con so I've been able to get a pretty good feel for how he plays and his strengths and weaknesses. Basically I'm reposting my impressions and findings for you here because I think the narrative that he's already confirmed low tier is both premature and inaccurate, and he has a lot of strengths and advantages that aren't immediately apparent.

I don't think he's necessarily going to be god-tier either, as his main weakness seems like it's going to be against fast characters, but he can do things other characters can't and he has a unique learning curve and play style that really makes him unlike every other Smash character pretty much ever. Anyway, my updated Mega Man impressions from Comic-Con:

--

Mega Man - My impressions from E3 are that people are sleeping on him, and they really shouldn't. While his specials leave a bit to be desired and seem to lack some utility (other than Rush Coil, which is a solid recovery), his normals, airs, and smashes are excellent. I have won nearly EVERY SINGLE MATCH I played as Mega Man against other human opponents on both the Wii U and 3DS versions, both at E3 and here at SDCC. He's definitely not a "pick up and play" or beginner character and takes some learning, but it's been completely rewarding and worth it for me and I can't wait to learn him in full and totally commit when the games finally come out! A "quick" rundown of his moves in my experience:

Neutral A (Mega Buster) - Racks up damage surprisingly quickly but can be awkward to use since you're maybe expecting a physical punch to come out, and usually/almost always gets you punished in close quarters

Forward tilt (Mega Buster while running) - Same as above, can be fired while running

Up tilt (Mega Upper) - Somewhat tough to land, but deals decent damage, knockback, and often interrupts when it does hit

Down tilt/crouch attack (Slide) - Haven't really used it a whole lot, can't really comment

Dash attack (Top Spin) - An excellent attack, has high priority and hits multiple times for good damage like Kirby's dash attack

Forward smash (Charge Shot) - Honestly, one of the best forward smashes in the game so far in my experience. It travels a good distance and does high damage and vicious knockback. Because it's a projectile it's not easily punishable, and I've scored multiple KOs using this from a safe distance when the opponent is at 60-70%

Up smash (Spark Shock) - An excellent smash that has decent range, hits multiple times and deals good damage; it's VERY similar in form and function to Zelda's up smash

Down smash (Flame Blast) - A good launch attack but seems to be Mega Man's "worst" (least good, really) smash attack; its range is narrower than you would think and you really have to be standing right next to an opponent to get good results. Great for crowd control/FFAs however as it hits the ground to both sides of Mega Man simultaneously

Forward air (Flame Sword) - High priority, wide range, quick to launch, decent damage

Back air (Slash Claw) - Less priority than Flame Sword, I think, but hits twice for good damage and is quick to launch

Up air (Air Shooter) - One of Mega Man's best moves, which seems to have unfortunately gone mostly overlooked in impressions thus far. Does good damage but also lifts opponents upward (think G&W's air puff, but it actually lifts opponents upward rather than just slows their descent) enough that KOing off the top of the screen is not only possible but quite likely if they're high enough; I've done it multiple times to audible frustration by the person KO'd by it in this way

Down air (Hard Knuckle) - Haven't used it a whole lot, but I'm trying to incorporate it into my play style more because it's essentially a projectile spike. It's hard to hit with though, as it doesn't travel very far, and that seems to really limit its viability

Neutral special (Metal Blade) - Disappointing. Even though it can be thrown in eight directions, which is useful, its rate of fire is surprisingly slow, it doesn't really do enough damage to be worth it in most cases, and it can be caught/picked up and reused against Mega Man

Forward special (Crash Bomb) - Probably Mega Man's best offensive special. It's basically a freely reusable Sticky Bomb item that obviously does less damage. It's an easy-to-use "fire and forget" weapon that flies fast, sticks to an opponent, and explodes on them in a couple seconds for minor damage (8-10% I think?). Just be sure not to use it if you plan to follow up with a close-range attack on that same opponent, as like the Sticky Bomb, it can dislodge and stick onto whoever comes into contact with them

Up special (Rush Coil) - A good, solid recovery. Gives more vertical recovery than horizontal recovery; no glaring advantages or weaknesses, it's simply good

Down special (Leaf Shield) - Seems to be VERY hard to utilize properly. As a basic flying projectile, it seems to be nearly worthless, but it can be powered up by absorbing incoming projectile attacks (kind of like G&W's Oil Panic), at which point it does a *lot* more damage to whoever it's thrown into. It's been very hard for me to utilize this properly in that way, however, making me wonder if it's worth the trouble

Throw (Super Arm) - Not too sure about the range yet, but it comes out quickly and the throw feels powerful, with good (but not amazing) distance

Final Smash (Mega Man Legends) - Everyone knows this one, but for what it's worth, the Black Hole Bomb-like projectile Mega Man fires to activate it (is it actually the Black Hole Bomb...?) is large and seems to be generally easier to hit with than, say, Marth's Critical Hit and Zelda/Sheik's Light Arrow

Movement-wise, Mega Man just feels like he does in his own games, which is great. He's on the light side but not too light, slightly above average walking/running speed, average jump, etc.

I'm only now beginning to realize just how vitally important spacing is with Mega Man, more so than with a lot of characters. Especially when using his Charge Shot, you have to try your best to space yourself such that you'll be able to let loose a fully (or almost fully) charged shot. Any shot charged less than halfway really doesn't do enough damage and knockback to (a) be worth the effort and (b) not easily be punished, so going in close for a quick, non-charged forward smash with Mega Man REALLY isn't an option. The only good forward smash with Mega Man is one that's performed from a distance and charged up to at least 75% or so (preferably 100%), but MAN is it worth it.

I also got two more off-the-top-of-the-screen KOs with the Air Shooter. Seriously such a good move.

--

Any more Mega Man questions? I'll be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

 

[Pompadour]

Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.

The problem is I don't think Sakurai can ever achieve the goal of putting the casual and competitive players on an even remotely equal playing field unless he turns the game into Mario Party wherein the player losing the match can suddenly be declared the winner. He's only making a worse game for a specific part of the fan base.

Even with all the randomness the better player who knows the game, the characters, etc. is going to beat the casual player 99 times out of 100.

 

[IntelliHeath]

*snip*

Excellent post. Several of my friends actually have issues with inputs in fighting games which frustrated them. They ended up being so good with Smash.

Any more Mega Man questions? I'll be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

Not at all, but you did fantastic job with it. It's fun to read the information about Mega Man

 

[Troubled Bat]

Look at this bat. IS THIS BAT SO ADORABLE!!?!

WHY!!

 

[Hatchtag]

Mega Post

Good post. Mega Man was a blast in the demo, and I do agree that people seem to be sleeping on him. He's definitely looking to be my main, unless Ganondorf returns to whooping ass this time around.

 

[PadWarrior]

Hearing good things about mega man makes me happy

 

[JoeInky]

Excellent post. Several of my friends actually have issues with inputs in fighting games which frustrated them. They ended up being so good with Smash.

I'm a person who struggles with traditional fighting game inputs who dislikes the implementation of L-cancelling and to a lesser extent wavedashing and even I completely disagree with Sakurai's general opinion of smash.


Yes, they can remove input barriers to the make the level of entry more friendly to new players, but that's not the only thing he wants to do, he wants to make a less skilled person have as much a chance at winning as a person who is more skilled at the game, not just make it easier for them to compete at an entry level, which is what he should be focusing on, rather than removing depth so that there's less of an advantage to be had from simply knowing how to play the game properly.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

--excellent post--

Overly complicated/finicky inputs are my #1 gripe with a lot of fighting games, and it's why I tend to gravitate towards characters like Zangief and Astaroth - they have relatively simple, limited movesets. Even so, trying to do some of Astaroth's grabs (A+B and A+K are super awkward button combos, I don't know why the makers of SC thought they were a good idea) and Zangief's ultras can be a real pain. Imagine if pulling off an ultra was as simple as activating a Final Smash. Then it would be about good timing rather than rotating the control stick in precisely the right way.

 

[Village]

Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.

Are you guys praising this? Why?

Do you see the bolded, do you SEE THE BOLDED?

 

[Tathanen]

he wants to make a less skilled person have as much a chance at winning as a person who is more skilled at the game, not just make it easier for them to compete at an entry level, which is what he should be focusing on, rather than removing depth so that there's less of an advantage to be had from simply knowing how to play the game properly.

Well the end of his post said exactly the opposite of that. He encourages people to turn off the random elements and have a more level test of skill if that's what they're more into.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Are you guys praising this? Why?

Do you see the bolded, do you SEE THE BOLDED?

People have different opinions about the video games. Yeah, I thought his statement was pretty good since I know some people that have issues with that kind of things, and he raised good points in the statement as well.

 

[Tathanen]

Are you guys praising this? Why?

Do you see the bolded, do you SEE THE BOLDED?

Problem?

 

[SmithnCo]

Are you guys praising this? Why?

Do you see the bolded, do you SEE THE BOLDED?

I do and I hate that training your fingers to do motions and memorizing many inputs is standard in traditional fighting games.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

Are you guys praising this? Why?

Do you see the bolded, do you SEE THE BOLDED?

The bolded is one of the best parts of his post. I hate feeling like I'm wrestling with the controls. If my super/ultra misses, I want it to be because I failed to time it or read my opponent correctly, not because I can't get the input right. The controls shouldn't be so complex that I get distracted from the actual fight trying to get my fingers to contort into the right button combination.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Next WTF Character would be a gambler from Vegas Stakes. There are five or six playable characters.

Spoiler

I'm not serious about this but I just realized that it was made by HAL

 

["D"]

I know this is a somewhat old post, but I made a mental note of it while on my phone so I could return to it when I was on my computer. Being the newcomer I'm most excited about, I played a TON of Mega Man at E3 and Comic-Con so I've been able to get a pretty good feel for how he plays and his strengths and weaknesses. Basically I'm reposting my impressions and findings for you here because I think the narrative that he's already confirmed low tier is both premature and inaccurate, and he has a lot of strengths and advantages that aren't immediately apparent.

I don't think he's necessarily going to be god-tier either, as his main weakness seems like it's going to be against fast characters, but he can do things other characters can't and he has a unique learning curve and play style that really makes him unlike every other Smash character pretty much ever. Anyway, my updated Mega Man impressions from Comic-Con:

--

Mega Man - My impressions from E3 are that people are sleeping on him, and they really shouldn't. While his specials leave a bit to be desired and seem to lack some utility (other than Rush Coil, which is a solid recovery), his normals, airs, and smashes are excellent. I have won nearly EVERY SINGLE MATCH I played as Mega Man against other human opponents on both the Wii U and 3DS versions, both at E3 and here at SDCC. He's definitely not a "pick up and play" or beginner character and takes some learning, but it's been completely rewarding and worth it for me and I can't wait to learn him in full and totally commit when the games finally come out! A "quick" rundown of his moves in my experience:

Neutral A (Mega Buster) - Racks up damage surprisingly quickly but can be awkward to use since you're maybe expecting a physical punch to come out, and usually/almost always gets you punished in close quarters

Forward tilt (Mega Buster while running) - Same as above, can be fired while running

Up tilt (Mega Upper) - Somewhat tough to land, but deals decent damage, knockback, and often interrupts when it does hit

Down tilt/crouch attack (Slide) - Haven't really used it a whole lot, can't really comment

Dash attack (Top Spin) - An excellent attack, has high priority and hits multiple times for good damage like Kirby's dash attack

Forward smash (Charge Shot) - Honestly, one of the best forward smashes in the game so far in my experience. It travels a good distance and does high damage and vicious knockback. Because it's a projectile it's not easily punishable, and I've scored multiple KOs using this from a safe distance when the opponent is at 60-70%

Up smash (Spark Shock) - An excellent smash that has decent range, hits multiple times and deals good damage; it's VERY similar in form and function to Zelda's up smash

Down smash (Flame Blast) - A good launch attack but seems to be Mega Man's "worst" (least good, really) smash attack; its range is narrower than you would think and you really have to be standing right next to an opponent to get good results. Great for crowd control/FFAs however as it hits the ground to both sides of Mega Man simultaneously

Forward air (Flame Sword) - High priority, wide range, quick to launch, decent damage

Back air (Slash Claw) - Less priority than Flame Sword, I think, but hits twice for good damage and is quick to launch

Up air (Air Shooter) - One of Mega Man's best moves, which seems to have unfortunately gone mostly overlooked in impressions thus far. Does good damage but also lifts opponents upward (think G&W's air puff, but it actually lifts opponents upward rather than just slows their descent) enough that KOing off the top of the screen is not only possible but quite likely if they're high enough; I've done it multiple times to audible frustration by the person KO'd by it in this way

Down air (Hard Knuckle) - Haven't used it a whole lot, but I'm trying to incorporate it into my play style more because it's essentially a projectile spike. It's hard to hit with though, as it doesn't travel very far, and that seems to really limit its viability

Neutral special (Metal Blade) - Disappointing. Even though it can be thrown in eight directions, which is useful, its rate of fire is surprisingly slow, it doesn't really do enough damage to be worth it in most cases, and it can be caught/picked up and reused against Mega Man

Forward special (Crash Bomb) - Probably Mega Man's best offensive special. It's basically a freely reusable Sticky Bomb item that obviously does less damage. It's an easy-to-use "fire and forget" weapon that flies fast, sticks to an opponent, and explodes on them in a couple seconds for minor damage (8-10% I think?). Just be sure not to use it if you plan to follow up with a close-range attack on that same opponent, as like the Sticky Bomb, it can dislodge and stick onto whoever comes into contact with them

Up special (Rush Coil) - A good, solid recovery. Gives more vertical recovery than horizontal recovery; no glaring advantages or weaknesses, it's simply good

Down special (Leaf Shield) - Seems to be VERY hard to utilize properly. As a basic flying projectile, it seems to be nearly worthless, but it can be powered up by absorbing incoming projectile attacks (kind of like G&W's Oil Panic), at which point it does a *lot* more damage to whoever it's thrown into. It's been very hard for me to utilize this properly in that way, however, making me wonder if it's worth the trouble

Throw (Super Arm) - Not too sure about the range yet, but it comes out quickly and the throw feels powerful, with good (but not amazing) distance

Final Smash (Mega Man Legends) - Everyone knows this one, but for what it's worth, the Black Hole Bomb-like projectile Mega Man fires to activate it (is it actually the Black Hole Bomb...?) is large and seems to be generally easier to hit with than, say, Marth's Critical Hit and Zelda/Sheik's Light Arrow

Movement-wise, Mega Man just feels like he does in his own games, which is great. He's on the light side but not too light, slightly above average walking/running speed, average jump, etc.

I'm only now beginning to realize just how vitally important spacing is with Mega Man, more so than with a lot of characters. Especially when using his Charge Shot, you have to try your best to space yourself such that you'll be able to let loose a fully (or almost fully) charged shot. Any shot charged less than halfway really doesn't do enough damage and knockback to (a) be worth the effort and (b) not easily be punished, so going in close for a quick, non-charged forward smash with Mega Man REALLY isn't an option. The only good forward smash with Mega Man is one that's performed from a distance and charged up to at least 75% or so (preferably 100%), but MAN is it worth it.

I also got two more off-the-top-of-the-screen KOs with the Air Shooter. Seriously such a good move.

--

Any more Mega Man questions? I'll be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

Informative read brother. Thanks for this. Megaman and Little Mac are the two i'm most excited to play as but my concerns rest mainly with Megaman because seeing enough of Little Mac's gameplay I feel like even though I haven't played with him yet, I can pick him up fairly quickly and easily and have a good understanding of his moves.

Back on topic with the Blue Bomber, I DO have some questions as follows:

- How's his overall priorities in his attacks? Since he seems to have a lot of "situational" moves does he at least enjoy the benefits of high priority attacks frequently to offset his "unique" playstyle?

- How quickly does Leaf Shield activate? Does it have hurtboxes attached to the leaves as soon as they appear or does the entire shield need to be actively spinning around his before they can hurt an opponent?

- Does Air Shooter seem like something that can be easily SDI'd out of? Or does the damage taken from the attack make the enemy "stay put"?

- How's the knockback on Crash Bomber against an opponent high in percents? Do you think it could kill in Sudden Death?

- Was there anything feeling-wise that you feel like could be tweaked for him for the final product or was he satisfying complete to play as as he currently is now?

- Since you attended E3 and such, do you know if the higher ups or anyone of status at Nintendo is aware at how Megaman is being perceived by people playing him. Any info that they are aware people are having mixed experiences playing as him?

EDIT: I had completely forgotten that he had Mega Upper as a move, should have known it was his Up Tilt. I don't think I've seen it used in casual play at all at E3/Invitationals/SDCC outside of the Nintendo Direct it was shown in. Same with Slide, folks just haven't been using it.

 

[Village]

\ Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.
.

" I hate when this thing in smash bros is in other fighting game because quater circles and buttons are hard"

the thing you just said is in every fighting game even smash,

Wat!?

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

.

You mean the focus... of every fighting game.

What?

Also the controls of the game do not fall to the way side, you need to learn how to actually use that character, like EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME. You act as if Fighting game motions are hard, they really arent. Have you tried one? Maybe you should, maybe you should.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Stuff

These are usually my least favorite kind of posts, because they condemn something they know very little about. I see a lot of other people confusing lowered execution barriers with lessening the competitive nature of the game. You can do one without the other, look at divekick.

It's also hard to seriously consider a post about "the nature of Smash Bros" from a user who admits to have not played the games that much.

I think it really just comes down to ignorance. I remember we had tons of users saying stuff like "oh, I actually really like that more" when stuff like lower landing lag was actually explained. Either that, or people feel personally offended for some reason when the word "wavedashing" is mentioned.

 

[JoeInky]

Well the end of his post said exactly the opposite of that. He encourages people to turn off the random elements and have a more level test of skill if that's what they're more into.

That last part of the column just reminds me of a politician who's just spent the last hour spewing bullshit only to make some half-hearted compromise at the end to try and cover up everything that he's just said.

It makes me groan hearing "But you can turn items off!" as if to say it negates everything he's just said.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Okay well let's just say that people who think they can divine the intentions of a game developer and speak for his intentions come off as really presumptuous and leave it at that.

 

[georgetheplushie]

Hiding the "fuck you" part of your post doesn't make it less douchey. Regardless how you feel about my comment, that's probably not necessary, yeah?

I get what you're all saying and hey, absolutely play how you want. Whatever floats your boat/beat of your own drum/all of that. I'm only saying that the Smash Bros series is, as we've been told time and time again from the man himself, a party game for people to play for fun. The obsessiveness with the deeper points Melee had go against that. Is that so wrong to say?

You know what's fun? Massive parties where I am able to play some of the best people in the world at this dumb little party game where you can beat up Donkey Kong with Pikachu with the added pressure of having money and glory on the line. We call them tournaments. Sure not everyone is going to want to play on Pokéfloats when I try to counterpick it just to see if they'll agree even if it's normally banned, but I have a blast playing 64, Melee, and Project M no matter what. Hell, even Brawl is enjoyable under certain conditions.

 

[Videoneon]

Mastering the physical mechanics of pressing the correct button combinations in fighting games is categorically the thing I hate most about them, and the thing that keeps me from ever being interested in competing in them. Every time I fuck up a super move motion in Street Fighter I curse the imbeciles who thought it was more important for you to train your fingers to perform specific actions than to be able to read when a move was best to be used, and time it for that window. When my mind and my body compete with each other, I am not having fun.

The reason I love SSB is because it places the focus not on mechanical dexterity, but on making the correct timed decisions. The controls themselves, the mechanics, they fall by the wayside by fundamental design. It's the reason why every single character controls the exact same way. You learn one, you've learned all of them, from a physical standpoint. Then it's down to the character-by-character nuance and good-ol video game timing skills.

You can always improve yourself here. Sidesteps, for example, are very difficult to perfectly time all the time, but the input is dead-simple. Evasion and pushing evaded techniques are the core tenets of SSB as it was designed. But due to the physics of Melee, the competitive scene has instead turned into hyper-aggressive speed play that relies heavily on difficult-to-execute moves (wavedashing as perhaps the easiest example).

There is enormous depth in pure timing and mindgame-based SSB play. It is often said that Brawl is a more "defensive" game, as if that carries inherent negative connotation. But it's true, SSB as a SERIES is fairly defensive. There's a reason there are so many evasive techniques. You should be blocking, you should be shield-grabbing, you should be rolling, you should be sidestepping, you should be air dodging. The SSBM metagame has evolved moreso into a complicated spacing game with very little defense. And you know what, that's fine, SSBM is pretty fun lemme tell ya, and I enjoy playing it. But it is not synonymous with Smash Brothers. It is not what "SSB should be," despite the fact that plenty of highly competitive people enjoy playing it that way.

SSB at its very core is about accessibility, and has been from Day 1. It's about anyone being able to learn all of the mechanics, because they are brain-numbingly simple to execute. And it's about learning how to use these basic mechanics to conquer opponents via your skillful use and timing of them. Melee moved in a direction that was counter to this, in its competitive landscape. As Sakurai said in his column, he built SSB to be a COUNTER to the traditional Fighting Game scene wherein mastery of mechanics was paramount, and where non-maniac gamers were excluded due to the amount of time necessary for any one person to become competitive. It's often said that "hey Sakurai what's your problem, tons of non-competitive people loved melee, we can both like it." And sure, that's true. But what's also true is that non-competitive people CAN'T enjoy melee in a competitive scenario. There is a hard line drawn there. And while it seems like a no-brainer that the competitive and casual scenes for a game wouldn't necessarily be able to play on equal footing, it is EXACTLY this goal that Sakurai has been aiming for with this series. A game with a miniscule barrier to entry that can be enjoyed on a high level by players of all types. A game with high-level play that, when seen by more casual players, can be easily aspired to rather than thought of as frightening and overwhelming.

Sakurai isn't, and never has been, anti-competitive. He just wants to widen what "competitive play" MEANS for the series. It's got to be inviting to everyone, without alienating people who want to play it at a higher level. I feel like SSB4 is getting to that magical point. If you want it to be a game focused heavily on the things that make the Melee competitive scene what it is, though, you'll probably be disappointed. But it's time to accept that melee was an aberration. And as a guy who's played SSB semi-competitively for upwards of twelve years now, I welcome a refocusing with open arms.

Interesting thoughts and I am glad you broach the subject. I don't agree with this at all. It would be asinine for a top Melee or any given Smash entry player to have relative parity with even half of the entrant pool of any given tournament. That dilutes the investment of any dedicated player - there's no reason to spend so much time if someone can put in about half of what you want to do and give you a run for your money. Is that really a fair expectation? Sometimes not everyone can perform at a competitively level - sometimes there is natural aptitude, sometimes there is Herculean time investment - but lowering the ceiling so that more people can participate threatens the robustness of the game, and as was mentioned can make it shallow.

Just to comment on specifics, wavedashing isn't that hard. It's just an advanced mechanic that takes lots of time and use in an actual match before it becomes something you can use.I would think fundamentals beat tech skill most of the time.

I want to bring up that Sakurai has advertised his mechanics in previous Smash games. And we're in an age where information is more widely available than in the past, and there's an abundance of it. I don't think this was nearly as much of an issue until the Internet brought gamers together and some like myself realized the gulf between our scrubby play and the hardcore Smash players. I am skeptical that there's a significant segment of people waiting in the wings to play Smash competitively and willing to make what's often a lifestyle investment to do so. Specialization is generally for the obsessive.

Sakurai has pretty clearly stated he's not interested in pursuing the same degree of competitiveness that he embraced with Melee.And he's not anti-competitive, he just doesn't really understand what competitive Smash is. He is at the core indifferent, and pursues his own vision like he always has. Anecdotally, there has been this resurgence lately of people who balk at technicality, executions requirements and competitive performance gulfs. And you can see it on GAF too every so often - a topic about "I can't get good at fighting games" and such. There's always a segment of people who find fighting games interesting to watch but struggle to grasp higher level play or are turned off by the complexity of the majority of fighters. Fighters are a niche genre, and by now everybody knows it.

Like, ultimately I understand that the crux of your post was actually that you want fighting games to be more read-based to mitigate the presence of execution requirements, but I have a specific objection to that and a more general objection to the thought underlying your post. But I sort of agree with you that Melee was equal parts intentional and "happy accident." I just don't see what the principle of easy to get into, difficult to master is not worth replicating. Obviously the casual play will always be present, how does the competitive aspect encroach on that? Because some people watch hardcore play and get discouraged?

 

[Tathanen]

" I hate when this thing in smash bros is in other fighting game because quater circles and buttons are hard"

the thing you just said is in every fighting game even smash,

Wat!?

I don't like most fighting games because of mechanical complexity. I love SSB because of the lack of mechanical complexity (in the non-competitive-melee scene). What is the issue?

It's also hard to seriously consider a post about "the nature of Smash Bros" from a user who admits to have not played the games that much.

Huh? I said I've been playing the series semi-competitively for upwards of 12 years. There is literally no video game I have played more than SSB.

 

[SmithnCo]

Damn, is it hard to accept that some people don't like doing quarter-circles, half-circles, and dragon punch motions constantly? Maybe it's easy if you've been doing it forever but for others it can be frustrating.

 

[JoeInky]

Okay well let's just say that people who think they can divine the intentions of a game developer and speak for his intentions come off as really presumptuous and leave it at that.

I don't see anyone speaking for Sakurai's intentions in this thread, he's doing that quite well himself.


And you can't just walk into an argument that you've contributed nothing to other than some smarmy comment and "leave it at that".