Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XI: Where 90% correct equals 100% wrong

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Tathanen said:
I guess for me this doesn't really register at all. I'm not interested in SSB's status as an esport whatsoever. I really enjoyed watching the SSB4 1v1 matches at E3 and SDCC though, so I guess whatever the game is doing in that regard is already enough for me.
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Ah I see. Where as you'll have people watching football, basketball or futbol every week, I'm actually just watching Melee and Project M. It is to me as those sports are to their fans. So that's why I'm a big advocate of watch-ability as well as play-ability. EVO for example is one of the biggest events of my year... Actually it may be the biggest event of my year. I love every aspect of being there watching the best compete, and cheering on friends, and next year competing in Smash 4, Melee (maybe), and PM.

WiiRevolution1 said:
Mainly due to popularity.

Like most impressions I've read, I liked SS quite abit, but it got fairly repeptitive after a couple hours and I eventually grew bored with it. And it seems like it got repetitive for most so thats why I didn't consoder it to be a contender for a eShop rep imo.

That, plus both Dillon and Pushmo have multiple games, Pushmo even has 3 so Nintendo is obviously pushing those series more. HarmoKnight was well received by pretty much everyone who played it, so thats why I thought only those three games could get in as a eShop rep.
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Ok, that makes sense and I completely agree. I didn't even finish SS due to the repetition. Same with Pushmo too, but that's just my preferences with puzzle games.

Dillon was actually one of my most wanted fighters. Even if I would have had to settle with him taking sonic's moveset, lol.
 
Revven said:
defense
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I think the issue I take with this is that you discuss buffing defense as if it's obviously not good. When in reality, it's just different. A game more about defense and evasion isn't necessarily bad. And this is where I feel disconnected from the competitive community. These aren't changes that break the game, or make it in any way less competitive. They're just changes.
 
JoeInky said:
I really hope the lack of shield stun was just a thing in the E3 demo.

You hear a lot of people now saying "B-but shields are easier to break now because Bowser did it that one time!", but that does very little towards making defense less overpowered.
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Shield breaking does discourage shielding but if it's only on moves as slow as Bowser's Down B it won't do much at all as you said. I mean, it helps that option is there for Bowser at all (when it wasn't there previously) but it's not going to be a go-to option for him -- it'll be heavily situational (much like DK's Side B in Melee/Brawl).

Tathanen said:
I think the issue I take with this is that you discuss buffing defense as if it's obviously not good. When in reality, it's just different. A game more about defense and evasion isn't necessarily bad. And this is where I feel disconnected from the competitive community. These aren't changes that break the game, or make it in any way less competitive. They're just changes.
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They were overbuffed on top of nerfing offensive options. I was saying it was uneven. I wasn't remarking at all how "competitive" a game is with defense being the best.
 
Tathanen said:
I think the issue I take with this is that you discuss buffing defense as if it's obviously not good. When in reality, it's just different. A game more about defense and evasion isn't necessarily bad. And this is where I feel disconnected from the competitive community. These aren't changes that break the game, or make it in any way less competitive. They're just changes.
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A defensive game isn't inherently bad, it's just less interesting to watch.


But the way the Smash Bros. series post-Melee goes about defense is terrible.
 
Tathanen said:
I think the issue I take with this is that you discuss buffing defense as if it's obviously not good. When in reality, it's just different. A game more about defense and evasion isn't necessarily bad. And this is where I feel disconnected from the competitive community. These aren't changes that break the game, or make it in any way less competitive. They're just changes.
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You can say "It's just different!" all you like, but Brawl's pitifully low entrance and viewer numbers kind of speak for themselves. If I wanted, I could say that Halo 4 is "just different" too.
 
Jedi Link said:
You can say "It's just different!" all you like, but Brawl's pitifully low entrance and viewer numbers kind of speak for themselves. If I wanted, I could say that Halo 4 is "just different" too.
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But... it is, isn't it?

A game like cheetah men is objectively worse than Super Mario bros. A game like brawl is subjectively worse than melee. I still prefer brawl to melee in many many ways.

It is better to the competitive community, to the people who want to watch other people play, but you ask a casual player who doesn't give one crap about pro melee, competitive melee, etc, and you'll find a good amount prefer brawl. In my household, more than 50% prefer brawl, and it's because brawl is easier to play for them.
 
Jedi Link said:
You can say "It's just different!" all you like, but Brawl's pitifully low entrance and viewer numbers kind of speak for themselves. If I wanted, I could say that Halo 4 is "just different" too.
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Hey, I didn't say people have to like change. The Melee community is big into Melee, that's no shocker. And before I even noted, I personally prefer Melee to Brawl myself. But that's more about the overall speed and landing lag stuff, and less about the defense changes. The only point I'm getting at is that the game is not more or less competitive due to these changes.

People say "Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive scene," but all they're really saying is "we like Melee, make Melee again!" The competitiveness has not changed significantly between releases, barring crap like tripping, etc.
 
georly said:
But... it is, isn't it?
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There's a difference between change and improvement.


A lot of people will say "it's just different" to avoid talks about whether it's actually better or not in the end.

Brawl is different to Melee, and it's a worse game because of it.

A game can be different to melee and be better, but Brawl was not the way to go about this.
 
I just hope there's some nerfing of the shield roll on character like Sheik and Little Mac. Those character's have little to no lag on the roll and can literally run circles around the other characters considering what I saw in the E3 demo.
 
JoeInky said:
Talking about removing things, the air dodge changes from Melee -> Brawl is one of the things that annoys me the most.
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I didnt quote the rest of your post because i dont want to annoy those that dont want the thread packed with melee vs brawl comments :P

First, when reading your post, i was thinking that i was reading something wrote by myself... you nailed it!! (all that i would say about the melee air dodge). For me, the biggest lost was wave landing. Moving from ground-platforms or from platforms-platforms is "off" without it, ground and platforms were "one" thanks to wave landing. If i what to move to a platform above me i dont want to do a full jump or a double jump, then wait so i can fast fall, then fast fall, then i am finally on the platform...

The air dodge change from melee to brawl is another example of the things that sakurai is simplifying so he can archive that stupid (i am not sorry sakurai ;p) ideal game.

The games lose personality :,(
 
Jedi Link said:
You can say "It's just different!" all you like, but Brawl's pitifully low entrance and viewer numbers kind of speak for themselves. If I wanted, I could say that Halo 4 is "just different" too.
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Keep in mind that there are also other reasons in addition to the overly defensive play that people don't play Brawl. Tripping, balance, speed, etc.
 
Tathanen said:
Hey, I didn't say people have to like change. The Melee community is big into Melee, that's no shocker. And before I even noted, I personally prefer Melee to Brawl myself. But that's more about the overall speed and landing lag stuff, and less about the defense changes. The only point I'm getting at is that the game is not more or less competitive due to these changes.

People say "Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive scene," but all they're really saying is "we like Melee, make Melee again!" The competitiveness has not changed significantly between releases, barring crap like tripping, etc.
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I just wanna reiterate (since my edit in my latest post may have been missed) that I never remarked on how "competitive" the game would be -- I was just remarking on how I would like the offense and defense to be more evenly balanced this time around rather than skewing more towards one or the other. They can keep no shield drop lag and good spotdodges if they put shieldstun back in the game, honestly. Just make things more even and people will be happy.
 
I actually came up with an awesome Mallo moveset last night when I was lying in bed. Basically, his normal moves would be inspired by sumo wrestling and specials would revolve around pushmo stuff. His down special would have him cycle though different block shapes and his neutral special would have him pull the previously invisible block from the background. The blocks would serve lots of different purposes. Edgeguarding, blocking attacks and projectiles, allowing for combos from bouncing the opponent off the blocks, etc. you can only have 3 on the field at a time.
 
Mario should be able to do this in Smash too.
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More this is Miiverse
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Forgot one!
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Revven said:
I just wanna reiterate (since my edit in my latest post may have been missed) that I never remarked on how "competitive" the game would be -- I was just remarking on how I would like the offense and defense to be more evenly balanced this time around rather than skewing more towards one or the other. They can keep no shield drop lag and good spotdodges if they put shieldstun back in the game, honestly. Just make things more even and people will be happy.
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Sure, from that standpoint I take no issue.
 
Tathanen said:
Hey, I didn't say people have to like change. The Melee community is big into Melee, that's no shocker. And before I even noted, I personally prefer Melee to Brawl myself. But that's more about the overall speed and landing lag stuff, and less about the defense changes. The only point I'm getting at is that the game is not more or less competitive due to these changes.

People say "Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive scene," but all they're really saying is "we like Melee, make Melee again!" The competitiveness has not changed significantly between releases, barring crap like tripping, etc.
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When you give one option (defense) all of the advantages and nerf the other option into the ground, you get something less competitive.

If the "competitiveness" hasn't changed significantly, why did Brawl stagnate and die where Melee lived on and grew?

Is it because they couldn't adapt to Brawl being a different game, or is it because the differences in Brawl made the game objectively worse from a competitive standpoint.


I think "competitiveness" is a bit of a stupid word in this discussion though, any game that can have two people wanting to beat each other is "competitive".
 
JoeInky said:
There's a difference between change and improvement.


A lot of people will say "it's just different" to avoid talks about whether it's actually better or not in the end.

Brawl is different to Melee, and it's a worse game because of it.

A game can be different to melee and be better, but Brawl was not the way to go about this.
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Brawl improved a lot of things, but most of those things help more casual players. Things like being able to grab the ledge no matter which way you face, things like slowing the game down so it's easier to play. It's a worse game to people who want to play it competitively, to people who want to watch it played competitively, and to people who have an interest in playing it competitively. I know tons of people, myself included, who prefer brawl for a lot of things it did. I adore the removal of L-cancelling, directional air dodging, and the easier ledge grabs. It makes the game easier to play for people who only want to play it as a party game, like more than half the people in my house. It is absolutely a better 'party/casual' game than melee in many regards, and i'm speaking strictly mechanically, not as far as content goes.

If I let the casual players in my house duke it out in melee, and then again in brawl, the number of suicide deaths is vastly different between the two. It's much easier for them to control and handle brawl.
 
I agree with those who enjoy the mindgames, reading, and spacing aspects of Smash more than the tech skill parts. That's one of the reasons I see no reason for L-cancelling. It's a needless technical barrier. Just reduce landing lag across the board. If I want to perform an action and outthink my opponent, I expect that action to be reliable every time.

But that said, if Smash is going to be speed chess, then the speed at which you make those mental decisions should be pretty quick. This helps not just from the perspective of having some great control over your character, but also from a spectator standpoint. The success of Melee was that it made people watching also want to play.
 
georly said:
Brawl improved a lot of things, but most of those things help more casual players. Things like being able to grab the ledge no matter which way you face, things like slowing the game down so it's easier to play. It's a worse game to people who want to play it competitively, to people who want to watch it played competitively, and to people who have an interest in playing it competitively. I know tons of people, myself included, who prefer brawl for a lot of things it did. I adore the removal of L-cancelling, directional air dodging, and the easier ledge grabs. It makes the game easier to play for people who only want to play it as a party game, like more than half the people in my house. It is absolutely a better 'party/casual' game than melee in many regards, and i'm speaking strictly mechanically, not as far as content goes.

If I let the casual players in my house duke it out in melee, and then again in brawl, the number of suicide deaths is vastly different between the two. It's much easier for them to control and handle brawl.
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I think if we start removing things because people don't learn from their mistakes (facing the wrong direction to grab a ledge, spamming an air dodge input and dying because of it), then we'd end up with a shitty game.

Why not completely remove the special fall state from the game? That way noone has to die from a mistake and it can just be a silly party game.

I can see liking the removal of L-cancelling (Well, I COULD see liking it if the landing lag was globally reduced to compensate), but I don't understand the ledge grabs and directional air dodging at all, other than "I'm dying too much due to my own mistakes, make the game different so that I don't have to learn how to play"
 
PadWarrior said:
LOL ouch. What will the other one be so I can mentally prepare myself?
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I'm still waiting for the avatar. He said that he would send me tonight.

Kyzer said:
Oh I know. He came up a couple times for me at best buy. I just think Tails is way cooler
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I agreed. I'm perfectly fine with Tails or Mr. Robotnik.

Revven said:
I just wanna reiterate (since my edit in my latest post may have been missed) that I never remarked on how "competitive" the game would be -- I was just remarking on how I would like the offense and defense to be more evenly balanced this time around rather than skewing more towards one or the other. They can keep no shield drop lag and good spotdodges if they put shieldstun back in the game, honestly. Just make things more even and people will be happy.
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Same here. I'm asking for a very good balance between offense and defense gameplay.

PadWarrior said:
Don't forget guys, pick up a LAN adapter. Been using it with Mario Kart 8 since day 1 and it's' smooth.
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^ Listen to this man.
 
JoeInky said:
When you give one option (defense) all of the advantages and nerf the other option into the ground, you get something less competitive.
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Competitive Melee is played hyper-aggressively. I feel like the meta-game there hugely favors offense. It's a similar imbalance.

If the "competitiveness" hasn't changed significantly, why did Brawl stagnate and die where Melee lived on and grew?
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Partially because the scale heavily fell from offense to defense, and people preferred to play the game they were used to playing. It also ended up being a lot slower, which can easily be argued to be "less fun" for people used to a fast game. But also because various random elements were introduced, and those, yes, affected competitiveness.

Competitiveness just means "the abilities of two people can be fairly judged via their direct competition." If elements negate ability, like randomness, the competitiveness is damaged.
 
BY2K said:
Ratings, we got ratings!

8WCSC0O.jpg
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What do we bet for Snake on this now?

Type "RIP" if you think Snake is gone
Type "Nerfed" if you think Snake's in the game but the stuff he brought to the table in his codecs in Brawl are either a. gone or b. toned down for the E10+ rating

GO.
 
JoeInky said:
I think if we start removing things because people don't learn from their mistakes (facing the wrong direction to grab a ledge, spamming an air dodge input and dying because of it), then we'd end up with a shitty game.

Why not completely remove the special fall state from the game? That way noone has to die from a mistake and it can just be a silly party game.

I can see liking the removal of L-cancelling (Well, I COULD see liking it if the landing lag was globally reduced to compensate), but I don't understand the ledge grabs and directional air dodging at all, other than "I'm dying too much due to my own mistakes, make the game different so that I don't have to learn how to play"
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I'm just of the mind that you should win by outsmarting your opponent without having to have quicker fingers than them too. A lot of those mechanics that people love require ridiculous dexterity that I think is unnecessary for a game that is just really glorified chess. That's just me, though.
 
Tathanen said:
Partially because the scale heavily fell from offense to defense, and people preferred to play the game they were used to playing. It also ended up being a lot slower, which can easily be argued to be "less fun" for people used to a fast game. But also because various random elements were introduced, and those, yes, affected competitiveness.
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I think even if the random elements stayed, if Brawl actually balanced offense and defense rather than being so heavily weighted towards the latter, we might have been in a different position today.

Tripping would have just been modded out and the Brawl scene might have actually stayed healthy for a while.
 
georly said:
I'm just of the mind that you should win by outsmarting your opponent without having to have quicker fingers than them too. A lot of those mechanics that people love require ridiculous dexterity that I think is unnecessary for a game that is just really glorified chess. That's just me, though.
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I can sort of see that with the ledge grabbing then (though the auto-grab range is still far too big).

But I still don't get what that has to do with directional air dodging, given all that it adds to the game in terms of mechanics as well as the more balanced risk and reward and it didn't require any real form of dexterity.

The Brawl airdodge added nothing to the game other than making it incredibly easy to avoid being hit in the air without any risk involved.
 
Tathanen said:
I think the issue I take with this is that you discuss buffing defense as if it's obviously not good. When in reality, it's just different. A game more about defense and evasion isn't necessarily bad. And this is where I feel disconnected from the competitive community. These aren't changes that break the game, or make it in any way less competitive. They're just changes.
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It does a lot. Slows the game down. Makes winning the game based on your opponents messing up instead of you outperforming them. I guess you could say you could try to bluff them into being vulnerable and that's outperforming them, but that's still just them failing to read your moves.

Also makes the game more boring to watch. This is coming from someone with almost no technical skill and very little interest in competing besides watching. Even after 10 years of playing Halo I could see the noticeable (and unfortunate) slower gameplay in Brawl compared to Melee.

Honestly, offensive's almost always more fun too
 
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