Super Tuesday 2016 |OT| The Final Incursion is a double Incursion (Mar 5-15 contests)

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GetLucky said:
That is, until young millennials move out and figure out the world isn't as simple as "wall street is bad" and "free college!". They'll be annoyed by the short sightedness of the next generation too.
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Interesting.

I support socialism entirely because I want future generations to have a better life, even if I might suffer temporarily in the present.

Bernie Sanders is about a whole lot more than "wall street is bad" and "free college". The former is more important than the latter, in my opinion, but the latter is still important.

Also important: health care as a privilege, not a price.

Also important: livable minimum wages.

Also EXTREMELY important: climate change.

To be important in the future: basic income for all. Automation, yo. :3

I'm thinking entirely of the future when I support Sanders. He may not be a pure socialist, but he's the closest we've got in America. My country will not survive if we continue down the path we're currently on.

I, however, will continue to survive quite healthily for a long while, no matter who's in charge, because I'm fortunate enough to be fairly well educated, and fortunate enough to have parents to help me up should I fall. My job is stable, and even if it fails, I won't have any huge problems finding one in the future. Also, I'm a white cis dude.

Do I want a better life for myself? Absolutely!

Do I think Sanders could provide a better life in the long-run? Absolutely (provided we have a Congress to back him up)!

Do I think some people (including me) would suffer, at least in the short-term, should all of Sanders' plans come into play? Absolutely!

Do I think it's worth it? Absolutely!
 
Leona Lewis said:
"The poll was taken March 2 to 5, preceding Rubio’s losses Saturday night in Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana and Maine. On Sunday, he won the Puerto Rico GOP primary, but placed third or fourth Tuesday night in Hawaii, Idaho, Michigan and Mississippi. Those losses could be a factor for voters when deciding whether Rubio’s candidacy is viable."

Not sure how useful this poll is after Rubio's embarrassing showing this week and the deluge of derisive headlines that followed.


Look at the date. That's more like it.
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Data points are data points. Some other polls released during that same timeframe also already had +20 for Trump.

I think the interesting bit about this poll is that it was also done by Univision and they contacted more Hispanic voters than other polls.
 
It seems pretty obvious that Hillary can't stand Bernie. It'll be funny watching her swallow her pride and pretend to really respect him so she can get support from his base during the GE.
 
Leona Lewis said:
Once again, you are missing my point.

I don't know how many ways to say it, but you will lose if you continue focusing on "There is nothing more bottom up than Sanders campaign" and "I dont think a Bernie Sanders presidency would necessarily look the same as an obama one." All I'm seeing from you is the campaign, the campaign, the campaign.

Sorry, but any revolution centered around figureheads rather than ideas will fail because, in the absence of a future dictatorship, the campaign doesn't matter. The real change comes after, and that's what the historical precedence that's not "compelling" to you (and which, by the way, long predates Obama) bears out. I'm just not very optimistic given the way you've already fallen into this trap:

This is not how politics works. This is not how change works. This is not how anything works.

The "someone up top" makes no difference if supporters are not equally, if not more engaged with the local political milieu. How many of these young Sanders supporters know their city council? Or their comptroller? How many of them will vote in 2018 when Sanders himself is not on the ticket? Sanders has done zilch compared to Hillary in supporting down-ballot candidates, yet I'm supposed to believe that he'll suddenly start playing messenger?

Not seeing it, sorry.

That wasn't the argument. The argument was that his supporters will be involved, but their sights will be aimed in the wrong places because Sanders' rhetoric has conditioned them to look up to the big boogeymen rather than down at their own communities.
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I don't disagree with everything you are saying, but I think you are missing something fundamental too.

The Sanders campaign is about IDEAS, not Bernie.

Some of these fundamental ideas paint a vision for the country. These ideas include:
A government that works for the people, not special interests
Healthcare is a fundamental human right
Public College education should be available tuition free
etc.

So now, your criticism that Bernie has done less than Hillary to support other democrats is absolutely correct. To be honest, as an independent, I actually don't care that much for these partisan games. How many candidates running for Congress also share these ideas? Hillary herself does not. That is what democrats don't get about why Bernie appeals to independents. He will not necessarily play patty cakes with others just because they happen to be democrats.

Now. We can have a different conversation about what is actually more effective at getting us change. Pragmatist sacrifice of your principles for the greater good or sometimes being a principled rock willing to butt heads. That would be a fascinating and interesting conversation.

I just disagree with your characterization that Bernie's support comes from a support of the person and not the support of the ideas. In fact, the Obama example shows this. People didn't show up in 2010, Why? The ideas "change the way the game is played" were proven to be nothing more than campaign lines. It was not cult of Obama that got people excited. It was the ideas he was campaigning on. It is the same for Bernie.
 
boiled goose said:
Now. We can have a different conversation about what is actually more effective at getting us change. Pragmatist sacrifice of your principles for the greater good or sometimes being a principled rock willing to butt heads. That would be a fascinating and interesting conversation.
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I dunno, man. I have tried to have this conversation with you multiple times and the result was that you decided I was a centrist. I'm not convinced it is actually worth trying!
 
interactivemonodrama said:
how long do I have to wait for the next republican debate?
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8.25 hours
grin.gif
 
pigeon said:
I dunno, man. I have tried to have this conversation with you multiple times and the result was that you decided I was a centrist. I'm not convinced it is actually worth trying!
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I mean my characterization of your political leanings is different is different from the discussion about which strategy is best.

You can be a centrist and being a centrist can be the way to go.

I don't see myself as an extreme left winger and in other contexts, I'd gladly be a centrist also.

In any case, labels are unnecessary to that discussion.
 
pigeon said:
I believe it is. Your behavior demonstrates that you don't!
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I mean, I think that right now centrism (more Obama, or Hillary) is not what the US needs.
That is our disagreement. :)

And as a sidenote, I do think Hillary has the potential to be a more effective centrist than Obama. So there is that. :P
 
Goodstyle said:
On what?
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On Hillary. You're basically saying she hates Bernie and you love seeing her seethe with anger, lying between her teeth at her respect for him.

Obama v Hillary was bloodier than this and there were pretty clearly no personal issues between them.

It's petty. You're basically setting up Hillary as a villain, disgusted at her competition, despite no evidence at all for that, and in fact, clear evidence Hillary doesn't hold grudges against political rivals like that. It's a personal attack with nothing backing it but your made up idea of Hillary's personality.
 
balladofwindfishes said:
On Hillary. You're basically saying she hates Bernie and you love seeing her seethe with anger, lying between her teeth at her respect for him.

Obama v Hillary was bloodier than this and there were pretty clearly no personal issues between them.

It's petty. You're basically setting up Hillary as a villain, disgusted at her competition, despite no evidence at all for that, and in fact, clear evidence Hillary doesn't hold grudges against political rivals like that. It's a personal attack with nothing backing it but your made up idea of Hillary's personality.
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I 100% support Hillary in this campaign, and would love nothing more than to see her stroll into the White House. I just get the impression that she genuinely doesn't like Bernie. It wasn't an informed post or one with much factual backing, but it's just the sense I get from their interactions together. Bernie comes off as sanctimonious and rude, and his supporters (NOT ALL OF THEM BUT A NOTICEABLE FACTION) are hyper aggressive towards her.

The thing is, she's tried a lot of what Bernie is promising now, and it didn't work out too well for her years ago (specifically in regards to health care). Now Bernie is campaigning on the idea that he can get everything he says he can get done, while at the same time painting the picture of Hillary as a shrewd, manipulative liar, when from Hillary's point of view, Sanders is lying through his teeth every time he opens his mouth to speak. He definitely gives off the impression that he's "above it all" when he's really just another politician making empty promises for political convenience (I have no issue with this, they all do it for a reason). There's no way that doesn't get under her skin, especially with how often Sanders plays on this "nice guy" persona when he's anything but.

Again, that's just my perspective. But I definitely didn't mean that in a way to disparage Hillary, I genuinley think she'd make a much better president that Bernie.
 
Goodstyle said:
I 100% support Hillary in this campaign, and would love nothing more than to see her stroll into the White House. I just get the impression that she genuinely doesn't like Bernie. It wasn't an informed post or one with much factual backing, but it's just the sense I get from their interactions together. Bernie comes off as sanctimonious and rude, and his supporters (NOT ALL OF THEM BUT A NOTICEABLE FACTION) are hyper aggressive towards her.

The thing is, she's tried a lot of what Bernie is promising now, and it didn't work out too well for her years ago (specifically in regards to health care). Now Bernie is campaigning on the idea that he can get everything he says he can get done, while at the same time painting the picture of Hillary as a shrewd, manipulative liar, when from Hillary's point of view, Sanders is lying through his teeth every time he opens his mouth to speak. He definitely gives off the impression that he's "above it all" when he's really just another politician making empty promises for political convenience (I have no issue with this, they all do it for a reason). There's no way that doesn't get under her skin, especially with how often Sanders plays on this "nice guy" persona when he's anything but.

Again, that's just my perspective. But I definitely didn't mean that in a way to disparage Hillary, I genuinley think she'd make a much better president that Bernie.
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I don't think she dislikes Bernie, she just finds him difficult, which I am sure he has been for his entire career.
 
Goodstyle said:
It seems pretty obvious that Hillary can't stand Bernie. It'll be funny watching her swallow her pride and pretend to really respect him so she can get support from his base during the GE.
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I think you're projecting there. I do think she's amused he has no idea what getting into the white house is going to be like.

Hillary was a very progressive feminist back in the 90s with the same ideas of getting a laundry list of things done; which promptly got smacked down by Gingrich and the drama-mama press of the beltway.

It's not incorrect to say that getting done what Bernie and a lot of progressives want done, quickly, will require a wave election unlike any seen historically. Or that it is not materializing.
 
boiled goose said:
I don't think she dislikes Bernie, she just finds him difficult, which I am sure he has been for his entire career.
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When has Sanders ever been easy?

People love him since he is basically that cranky grandpa yelling. One of the few whose been largely consisted and honest throughout his career. Which is a good and bad thing.
 
vicissitudes said:
Hillary supporters: if you actually care about people and you're not a total idiot you have to vote for Hillary.

Hillary's the real bully here, not Trump.
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...?

I think Bernie will be the first to say when the primary is over that all of his supporters should vote for Hillary in the general.
 
KtSlime said:
Hopefully it doesn't come to that and current Hillary supporters do the right thing and put Sanders in the GE.
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Lol what, Hillary is better for the country than Sanders. But yes it is obviously going to be Hillary in the GE. Bernie fans are gonna have to toe the line or deal with Trump.
 
No matter if you're a fan of Hill or Bern, I think voting Democratic for the GE will be done eventually because NONE of the Republican candidates are people you would want in power (not even the fake moderate Kasich).
 
AP calls Washington DC for Rubio.

edit:
Rubio 37.3% (10 delegates)
Kasich 35.5% (9 delegates)
Trump 13.8% (0 delegates)
Cruz 12.4% (0 delegates)
 
chadskin said:
AP calls Washington DC for Rubio.

edit:
Rubio 37.3% (10 delegates)
Kasich 35.5% (9 delegates)
Trump 13.8% (0 delegates)
Cruz 12.4% (0 delegates)
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Brokered convention and the death of Trump presidential ambitions keeps on moving closer to a reality. Just hope Rubio can somehow get Florida also.
 
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