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[Ripclawe]

said the father(Newdow) had no legal right to bring the case since the mother has legal right to the kid, this overturns the 9th court of appeals.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...14/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance

 

[Hamfam]

Seems like a cop-out to me, as an excuse not to have to decide whether the pledge itself is un-constitutional or not. They're going to have to make a ruling eventually, putting it off just seems so lame.

 

[IJoel]

Seems like a cop-out to me, as an excuse not to have to decide whether the pledge itself is un-constitutional or not. They're going to have to make a ruling eventually, putting it off just seems so lame.

I agree. They are obviously sidestepping the issue.

IBTC (In Before The Conservatives)

 

[GuntherBait]

I agree. They are obviously sidestepping the issue.

IBTC (In Before The Conservatives)

Like i've always said, if you can't look at the American flag and say a few words, get the FUCK out of my country.

 

[IJoel]

Like i've always said, if you can't look at the American flag and say a few words, get the FUCK out of my country.

It's our country and it's not about saying a few words, but what those words mean and represent to everyone in this country, not the religious only. Point aside, I personally have no problems with the wording (as I'm a Christian), but I do think the mention of a "God" in the pledge can distance those that are atheists.

[general comment]I can't fucking believe people these days. Jesus! Does it really take that much to think of anyone else but yourselves? Selfish pricks.[/general comment]

 

[DeEJaYMiND]

[general comment]I can't fucking believe people these days. Jesus! Does it really take that much to think of anyone else but yourselves? Selfish pricks.[/general comment]

 

[DarienA]

I don't mean to demean this... no f*ck it I do, which I'm sure is a blow to atheists everywhere, but WTF aren't there more important things that the Supreme Court can spend its time on?

 

[Hamfam]

Like i've always said, if you can't look at the American flag and say a few words, get the FUCK out of my country.

PRAISE ALLAH, AND GANESHA!

 

[FoneBone]

Although I agreed with the lower court's ruling, and I have to agree that they are sidestepping the issue, I also have to agree with the court's decision here -- the legitimacy of Newdow's case was rather dubious.

 

[Tazznum1]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!*




*and nowhere else.

 

[GuntherBait]

It's our country and it's not about saying a few words, but what those words mean and represent to everyone in this country, not the religious only. Point aside, I personally have no problems with the wording (as I'm a Christian), but I do think the mention of a "God" in the pledge can distance those that are atheists.

[general comment]I can't fucking believe people these days. Jesus! Does it really take that much to think of anyone else but yourselves? Selfish pricks.[/general comment]

Not flamming to turn this into a religious debate (as I too am a Christian...) but I hate to break it to the Atheists, but there is no pure/true atheist since if they denounce God, then they believe He exists to denounce, therefore, how can the pledge "distance" those who don't believe in Him simply because they say His name?

 

[DarienA]

Not flamming to turn this into a religious debate (as I too am a Christian...) but I hate to break it to the Atheists, but there is no pure/true atheist since if they denounce God, then they believe He exists to denounce, therefore, how can the pledge "distance" those who don't believe in Him simply because they say His name?

...my brain hurts.

Atheists don't denounce god... they just believe no such thing exists I thought... that doesn't seem to be any different than me saying I don't think a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird exists....

 

[RedDwarf]

I just ignore the Pledge of Allegiance. I haven't sung along with it since I was about 10 years old. It makes the religious wording in it much less bothersome.

 

[GuntherBait]

...my brain hurts.

yeah I know... sorry.

 

[Agent Dormer]

Expected as much.

 

[shoplifter]

Yep, I figured the court would throw it out on standing. This just means that someone else will file a suit.

 

[Tazznum1]

I just ignore the Pledge of Allegiance. I haven't sung along with it since I was about 10 years old. It makes the religious wording in it much less bothersome.

Sung???

hehehehe

 

[Tazznum1]

Not flamming to turn this into a religious debate (as I too am a Christian...) but I hate to break it to the Atheists, but there is no pure/true atheist since if they denounce God, then they believe He exists to denounce, therefore, how can the pledge "distance" those who don't believe in Him simply because they say His name?

I dont believe in God or the Easter Bunny, but I entertain others with their thoughts just as long as they dont interfere with mine. No biggie.

 

[Tritroid]

The "Under God" phrase really shouldn't garner this much negativity.

The United States was founded upon Christian beliefs. Yes there was/is freedom of religion, but the founding fathers practiced Christianity as did the majority of the colonists back during that time.

By stating the pledge, it's meant to reflect back on the ideals and principles that were set in place when the country was originally founded. "Under God" doesn't mean 'omg only Christians matter in the U.S.', it's a historical reference that just also happens to apply to people who still practice the same religion today.

If people have such a huge problem with saying the word "God" like it's a fricking curse word, then just don't say that part. Huge fucking deal.

 

[kablooey]

I do say the PoA out of respect, but the "under God" part has to go. The only reason that was originally put into the Pledge in the first place was to distance us from those God-hating commies in Soviet Russia; that line of thinking is obviously outdated now (or so I would think), so there's no decent reason for it to be there. Does "liberty...for all" not include atheists?

edit to respond to above post: The founding fathers of the Constitution were not Christian. They were simply Deists, and believed in keeping religion out of the government. Duh.

 

[Tazznum1]

But it would be a huge deal if you (people who believe in God) left it out all together, right?

 

[GuntherBait]

But it would be a huge deal if you (people who believe in God) left it out all together, right?

The thing is... the pledge was created on FOUNDATIONAL beliefs. You can't tell me that some 20 yr old that wants to save the rainforest who lives in Columbus, OH squirms when he says the pledge simply because he doesn't believe in the American ideals?

It all boils down to the principle. We wouldn't leave God out of the pledge because that's what this country was founded on. Besides... I would say that "Liberty and justice for all..." includes those we're fighting for.... but people get so caught up in themselves, that they don't about anything other than their lives or their beliefs. I'd say statistically speaking, more people are for the pledge than against, but that's just m opinion.

 

[Kuramu]

if instead of "under god" it had been "Alah akbar" this wouldn't have been such an issue.

 

[shoplifter]

The United States was founded upon Christian beliefs. Yes there was/is freedom of religion, but the founding fathers practiced Christianity as did the majority of the colonists back during that time.

Secular Deism says hello.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The thing is... the pledge was created

without the phrase "under God" in it.

 

[RedDwarf]

Well, it's kind of a sing-along thing Tazz... I guess I should say I haven't recited the Pledge. How's that?

 

[GuntherBait]

if instead of "under god" it had been "Alah akbar" this wouldn't have been such an issue.

Sure it would've.... Islam wasn't a big religion back then.

 

[SteveMeister]

The thing is... the pledge was created on FOUNDATIONAL beliefs. You can't tell me that some 20 yr old that wants to save the rainforest who lives in Columbus, OH squirms when he says the pledge simply because he doesn't believe in the American ideals?

It all boils down to the principle. We wouldn't leave God out of the pledge because that's what this country was founded on. Besides... I would say that "Liberty and justice for all..." includes those we're fighting for.... but people get so caught up in themselves, that they don't about anything other than their lives or their beliefs. I'd say statistically speaking, more people are for the pledge than against, but that's just m opinion.

Your point would have more weight if the pledge had been written by the founding fathers AND had originally included the phrase "under God". Neither is true.

 

[GuntherBait]

Your point would have more weight if the pledge had been written by the founding fathers AND had originally included the phrase "under God". Neither is true.

Out comes the history major.

 

[GuntherBait]

...my brain hurts.

Atheists don't denounce god... they just believe no such thing exists I thought... that doesn't seem to be any different than me saying I don't think a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird exists....

Actually the point was they don't believe there is a "god" which means they admit to believing in something that isn't there which is a self-defeating thought.

Just because you say a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird doesn't exists, you still believe that it doesn't exist, therefore you have to say that it could in reference to saying it couldn't. See my point?

 

[Kuramu]

gunther, christians might think differently about this issue if it was "Allah Akbar" instead. How comfortable would you be saying that in the pledge?

 

[SteveMeister]

Out comes the history major.

Nope -- when the case first came up, I did a little web research. And even if I had been a history major, the facts would remain -- the Pledge of Allegiance was not written by the USA's founding fathers, and it did not originally contain the phrase "under God". Which means that a statement that the Pledge matches the principles the country was founded upon is conjectural, not factual.

In other words, your rebuff to my post doesn't do anything to strengthen your argument.

 

[Tazznum1]

Yeah, what if there was a push to change God to ....Jehovah.

That wouldn't be a big deal, right?

 

[shoplifter]

Out comes the history major.

Um...that's pretty common knowledge.

Some nice quotes (all emphasis is mine):

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

 

[GuntherBait]

gunther, christians might think differently about this issue if it was "Allah Akbar" instead. How comfortable would you be saying that in the pledge?

I would say that because Allah is not the True God of the universe. Now, you're probably going to bring up the point... "AH HA!! See, if believe that Allah is the true God the universe and I want to say that in the pledge."

Well, sorry, your wrong.

 

[Kuramu]

Actually the point was they don't believe there is a "god" which means they admit to believing in something that isn't there which is a self-defeating thought.

Just because you say a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird doesn't exists, you still believe that it doesn't exist, therefore you have to say that it could in reference to saying it couldn't. See my point?

so if you told me you saw a Squgmuffle-treegor and described it as a levitating pumkin, and i said i didn't believe a Squgmuffle-treegor could exist, you're saying that because i knew what to call it, i must believe in it?

 

[Kuramu]

I would say that because Allah is not the True God of the universe. Now, you're probably going to bring up the point... "AH HA!! See, if believe that Allah is the true God the universe and I want to say that in the pledge."

Well, sorry, your wrong.

but this would be you forcing your religion onto others. If you wish to defend the founding principles of america, here's a good place to start

 

[GuntherBait]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

This I have a problem with simply because it dis-unifies itself with "orgranized" religion of which, being a certain believer, I would say in most religions (or cults) that being a part of a group is encouraged. Besides, he's got the idea backwards, the church isn't his mind, the church is body of believers.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Actually the point was they don't believe there is a "god" which means they admit to believing in something that isn't there which is a self-defeating thought.

Just because you say a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird doesn't exists, you still believe that it doesn't exist, therefore you have to say that it could in reference to saying it couldn't. See my point?

what

 

[GuntherBait]

but this would be you forcing your religion onto others. If you wish to defend the founding principles of america, here's a good place to start

I'm not forcing my religion onto you am I? I'm simply stating that your wrong based on my opinion. Debate is one of those things that is what has kept this Nation going. As any person of the Christian faith, I'm sick of a tainted image of the church being poured out due to the Catholic church being the only one in the media; I'm sick of people saying "christians are stupid, go back to church" simply because you or anyone else doesn't agree with what we believe. I'm sick and tired of people telling us to roll over and take it up the ass simply because people don't want to listen.

The principles of this country were based on debate, of which I think is good. An open forum to those who wish to express their opinion based on beliefs that they hold and want to share. I do find it repulsive however that people don't give me or any other Christian the time of day, but you'll give someone from the Nation of Islam 2 hrs to sit and talk in a hall just beause you don't want to discriminate against them.

That's where this country is falling flate on its face.

 

[GuntherBait]

what

What don't you understand?

 

[Hitokage]

*sigh* Time to call out the bullshit...

Tritroid: Name a single uniquely Christian precept that exists in the foundation of American law.

GuntherBait: So what you're saying is that if I were to call you an idiot for your posts in this thread, I would first have to admit you're smart? Stop trying before you hurt yourself.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"Actually the point was they don't believe there is a "god" which means they admit to believing in something that isn't there which is a self-defeating thought.

Just because you say a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird doesn't exists, you still believe that it doesn't exist, therefore you have to say that it could in reference to saying it couldn't. See my point?"


Cool! I'm gonna ask Santa for a shitload of stuff this year!!!! I don't think he exists, so using your logic I have to say he could exist. Unless I think he was made up and exploited by the Coca Cola company. Which is the same thing atheists believe about God. (Except without Coca Cola...I think)

 

[Kuramu]

I'm not forcing my religion onto you am I? I'm simply stating that your wrong based on my opinion..

if you want my kids to make a pledge every morning stating that our country is under god, then you are forcing religion onto my kid.

 

[Hitokage]

Oh, and I'm sure the majority of the world's population would appreciate it if you acknowledge that there are more belief options than Christianity and Atheism.

 

[Dilbert]

Actually the point was they don't believe there is a "god" which means they admit to believing in something that isn't there which is a self-defeating thought.

Just because you say a blue winged, yellow headed, green polka dotted bird doesn't exists, you still believe that it doesn't exist, therefore you have to say that it could in reference to saying it couldn't. See my point?

Ummmmmm...I'm almost speechless with how insane this line of reasoning is. Even though I should know better, I'm going to at least try to set you straight on a couple of things.

Being able to conceive of a thing does not make that thing necessarily exist. For example, I can imagine a particular pine tree, based on my previous experiences with pine trees. I can picture exact numbers of branches, imagine its smell, assign it a height. But that imagining does not guarantee that any such pine tree matching my exact thought exists anywhere in the world. I can also invent something completely fanciful based on an amalgamation of my prior experiences which does not exist anywhere -- a maple tree made of rock that bleeds pine sap and is neon pink. The mere thought alone does not cause such a creation to spring into being!

Notice that in both of my examples, the thought is based on my experiences. It's an open question about whether or not one can imagine something which has never been experienced. Quite frankly, the "idea" of God is not like an idea of a tree or a rock, since we have had no direct sensory experience of God. The idea of God is based on NEGATION -- he is, after all, NOT limited by time or space, NOT limited in his knowledge, NOT mortal, NOT tempted by a variety of moral considerations. I would argue that an idea based on negation is not definite, and therefore ill-formed. If I tell you that a shirt I'm wearing is "not blue," what color is it?

 

[GuntherBait]

*sigh* Time to call out the bullshit...

Tritroid: Name a single uniquely Christian precept that exists in the foundation of American law.

GuntherBait: So what you're saying is that if I were to call you an idiot for your posts in this thread, I would first have to admit you're smart? Stop trying before you hurt yourself.

Please do.... by all means... however, your not enhancing this debate any by copping out.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

"Because you see, you can't say that you don't believe in god because that means you do believe in god, and saying that can only mean that you do think the god you don't think exists that i do believe exists really DOES exist!"

 

[Hitokage]

Haha, I'm always glad jinx is a tad more masochistic than I am.

Maybe I should ressurect my old "Church v. State: the rematch" post, which would save me a little trouble arguing with the next batch of the historically unread.

 

[shoplifter]

If I tell you that a shirt I'm wearing is "not blue," what color is it?

Obviously Blue. What a stupid question!